Water Baptism passed away in this dispensation

[Zeke]

There are Jews/Israel/Old Covenant and Christians (Jew and Gentile one in Christ)/Church/New Covenant.

There is not a circumcision gospel after the cross and uncircumcision gospel after Paul.

Well Peter would have told you different before Acts 10! NO uncircumcised gentiles was being preached to till after Peters vision which was years after pentacost, which clearly shows that the timing was Gods, there was a reason the twelve were only preaching to ye men of Israel and it had to do with THEIR COVENANT!
which was the same people Jesus was sent to in the flesh his brethern! to live, and fulfill the laws , breaking the curse and freeing them from the yoke, and bondage of their flesh, which was portraid in type by their bondage in Egypt awaiting their birth as a nation with sign and wonders performed by the prophet Moses likened on to Christ,
these are the same bunch being dealt with in Christ law fulfilling walk in his flesh, not till the cross did he deal with all flesh that one imputed sin DEATH, but only after he dealt with imputed sins LAW which was a seperate issue from those that were never under imputed sins LAW granted the nations failure like Adam put all under their transgression, and later transgressions their was no need to deal with Adams sin till the cross, which is why His flesh ministery was about the Laws transgression, and its demands, this was the circumcisions apostles ministery as well they were sent by Jesus in like manner as he was to the nation concerning the flesh,
to gloss over the things that differ is mixing doctrinal shadows with the light of progressive gospel of grace that had no Jew nore gentile but new creatures in Christ, which was not the message of the twelve apostles to the lost sheep of the house of Israel it was repent for killing their messiah, and get ready for his soon return to set up their awaited kingdom, Christ was made of a women, but also made under law the release from the Law was not the twelves message their covenant still has them under the law kept by the Spirit that royal nation of priests Peter referes to.

Zeke.

 

[godrulz]

When I read Peter, John, and Paul's writings, I see no conflict. I see different styles, target audiences, issues, emphasis. I see unity of the Spirit with NT truth.

Virtually every NT scholar in the world sees perfect harmony between Pauline, Petrine, and Johannine theology (you should do biblical theology before systematic theology...you should also do proper exegesis rather than proof texting and creating problems where none exist).

I think you guys are out on a limb that simply does not stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Servo]

If you do not read Scripture for yourself then the Scripture is strange to you.
I urge you to put down the MAD doctrine handbooks and begin to read the whole Word of God and obey the LORD Jesus Christ, who sent Barnabas together with Saul, as Apostles" "to the Gentiles.
Barnabas was one of the 70, and was called to "go make disciples of all Gentiles, commanding them to be water baptized in the Name of the One Faith, Once delivered to the Saints. Jesus sent Barnabas and Saul as called "Apostles" to the Gentiles -but MAD hasn't a clue to that Bible truth in their false doctrine.

I already posted the Scriptures showing that fact http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1415940&postcount=477, but you have blinders on and will not believe the Truth of the Word of God.
Mad is false doctrine not found in Scripture, and Scripture contradicts Mad at every turn and twist of the wrestings of Paul's writings by MAD handbooks, which you parrot.

You need to stop being so mad at MAD and take some time to understand what Mid-Acts dispensation really is. Can you briefly (I know, ha!) describe what you think it means and why people believe it to be doctrinally correct?

Wow, am I in for it.
Try not to use the words “handbook” and “false” and “whole”.

Type away!

I use this same verse as an argument against baptismal regeneration. Water baptism is not a condition of salvation in any dispensation.

BTW Laq,
Do you agree with what godrulz says here? I don’t.

John 3:5

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

 

[Servo]

So? Paul was taught the gospel directly by the Lord apart from the Jerusalem church. It does not mean that it is a different gospel.

Paul opposed Peter on some legalistic things, not in rejecting your imaginary circ. vs uncirc. gospel. You are proof texting again. These verses do not prove a two NT gospel theory after the cross. They are about Paul's unique experience with the risen Christ. The experience was different than the others, but the gospel was not. Paul certainly clarified and expanded on things, but he was not the originator of the gospel of Christ (Jesus and the Spirit were before Paul and the other leaders were already growing in their understanding parallel with Paul's maturation before being released into missions).

"The experience was different than the others..."
So you do at least see some differences then?

So when we tell others about Christ and what it takes to be saved, we should tell them about Christ and whatever your experience for yourself is best?

 

[Servo]

When I read Peter, John, and Paul's writings, I see no conflict.

Then you are one of the few. Most folks I know get frustrated very quickly when reading the four gospels and then reading Paul's writings. Many people blow the Bible off and give up on a relationship with God because of it.
Start asking people you don't normally fellowship with! A lot of frustration out there.

 

[godrulz]

You need to stop being so mad at MAD and take some time to understand what Mid-Acts dispensation really is. Can you briefly (I know, ha!) describe what you think it means and why people believe it to be doctrinally correct?

Wow, am I in for it.
Try not to use the words “handbook” and “false” and “whole”.

Type away!




BTW Laq,
Do you agree with what godrulz says here? I don’t.

John 3:5

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

This is probably an allusion to repentance as expressed in the baptism of John the Baptist. Repentance, not getting wet, is a condition of salvation. There are a variety of possible interpretations suggested, with Christian baptism being the least likely.

This statement was before the cross. Repentant faith leads to regeneration, not baptism. Baptism is linked with repentance and faith as an outward expression of spiritual reality, but it is not meritorious or sacramental (based on all relevant verses, not just a proof text that scholars cannot agree on).

 

[godrulz]

"The experience was different than the others..."
So you do at least see some differences then?

So when we tell others about Christ and what it takes to be saved, we should tell them about Christ and whatever your experience for yourself is best?

Paul's conversion, calling, and commission was profound and unique. Every believer has a unique calling and commission also. God does not treat us with a cookie cutter mold.

This does NOT lead one to conclude that there are many gospels in the NT though.

Paul was set apart later than Peter, but not for a different gospel. Peter was already preaching the risen Christ when Paul was converted. God was already making Jew and Gentile one in Christ before Paul. The cross opened the door, not the conversion of Paul.

 

[Pettrix]

Arguments from silence are weak.

So, tell me this, it went from WATER BAPTISM and REPENTANCE & SALVATION, going hand-in-hand. Every verse, teaching, preaching in the 4 gospels and early Acts, having water baptism and salvation being preached, as one, one right after the other (water baptism & salvation).

Then you have Paul, who not one of Paul’s epistles does Paul give one word of instruction to his churches, pastors, or evangelists to baptize. Not one word of instruction to members of the Body of Christ to practice this ceremony is given by Paul. Not only that but here are TWO DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED VERSES:

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

VS.

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


But like I stated BEFORE AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN, dispensational theology does not stand or fall on one or numerous verses, it is a COMPLETE Biblical theology that uses the ENTIRE Bible to make its case. It answers water baptism, whether or not it is for today, by its ENTIRE use of the Bible.

 

[Pettrix]

Then you are one of the few. Most folks I know get frustrated very quickly when reading the four gospels and then reading Paul's writings. Many people blow the Bible off and give up on a relationship with God because of it.
Start asking people you don't normally fellowship with! A lot of frustration out there.

AMEN brother! :thumb: :thumb:

That is the TRUTH. I walked down that road myself back in 1993 & 1994. I was getting to the point that I was going to throw the entire Bible in the garbage. Why??? Just like you said, when you HONESTLY look at the gospels and early Acts, then you look at the Pauline epistles, you have "contradictions". Only those who choose to ignore or latch on to some proof-texts and a denomination and run with it, don't want to see the gleaming contradictions.

Talk to believers who abandoned Gods Word, TRUE believers, why they no longer follow Gods Word??? 99% of time it will be because of the confusions and contradictions they are getting from Gods Word. Which promises are for me, can I take some, all of them, etc etc.

Some churches taught that if I did not speak in tongues, I was not saved. Others told me that I could always be healthy & wealthy if I had enough faith. That by being sick I either lacked faith or I had sin in my life. Some of these churches were denominational while others were non-denominational. Attending all these churches left me more confused than anything. Some of the churches salvation message that they taught was works-based. They would quote proof-texts from James, Hebrews and the 4 gospels to prove their points and theology.

Who is right? Are the Pentecostals, Assembly of God, Methodists, Presbyterian, local non-denominational, Charismatic, Calvary Chapel, etc. church correct? Wait; even they had differences among themselves! One church of the same denomination taught differently then the same church denomination 12 miles away.

The answer to 99% of these problems is:

RIGHT DIVISION/DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY

 

[godrulz]

But like I stated BEFORE AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN, dispensational theology does not stand or fall on one or numerous verses, it is a COMPLETE Biblical theology that uses the ENTIRE Bible to make its case. It answers water baptism, whether or not it is for today, by its ENTIRE use of the Bible.

The Gospel of John emphasizes faith as a condition of salvation. It does NOT make baptism a condition for salvation. This is exactly what Paul taught. Faith vs unbelief is the core of the gospel (Jn. 3:16, 36). John 3:5 cannot be proof texted to mean baptism is essential for salvation. John 1:12 is clear...receive/believe, not get wet.

 

[godrulz]

Some churches taught that if I did not speak in tongues, I was not saved. Others told me that I could always be healthy & wealthy if I had enough faith. That by being sick I either lacked faith or I had sin in my life. Some of these churches were denominational while others were non-denominational. Attending all these churches left me more confused than anything. Some of the churches salvation message that they taught was works-based. They would quote proof-texts from James, Hebrews and the 4 gospels to prove their points and theology.


The answer to 99% of these problems is:

RIGHT DIVISION/DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY

Classical Pentecostal scholars have refuted these heresies for decades by rightly dividing the Word through proper exegesis apart from dispensational, deductive ideas. Proper exegesis undermines the proof texts of the Word-Faith movement or fringe Pentecostal groups like UPC who make tongues and baptism essential for salvation based on Acts 2:38.

You are totallly wrong to think that Mid-Acts is the only way to resolve apparent contradictions (remember the divisions and splits within your various Mid-Acts groups...quit pointing fingers). Good scholarship easily deals with heretical views (whether in or outside Pentecostal circles) by exegeting the verses in context considering grammatical, contextual, historical, theological issues.

The Assemblies of God has position papers against extremes in the charismatic movement. They are based on Scripture, but not with a Mid-Acts filter. You are honestly apologetically and doctrinally ignorant if you think your small circle has the only solution to doctrinal disputes in Christianity:nono:

 

[Zeke]

Paul's conversion, calling, and commission was profound and unique. Every believer has a unique calling and commission also. God does not treat us with a cookie cutter mold.

This does NOT lead one to conclude that there are many gospels in the NT though.

Paul was set apart later than Peter, but not for a different gospel. Peter was already preaching the risen Christ when Paul was converted. God was already making Jew and Gentile one in Christ before Paul. The cross opened the door, not the conversion of Paul.

Before Pauls encounter Peter was preaching to the circumcision only, which acts ten proves beyond a shadow of a doubt! and was caught of guard when the Lord told him to go to house of an uncircumcised gentile, which astonished all the Jews!! and acts ten only came about after Pauls calling out as a pattern of God Grace for all men that were enemies of Christ like Saul was, no reason for God to save this little Jew named Saul other than to show how far he would go in reaching all men, but this only happened in the right time table, only after Israel as a nation rejected the Spirit and were headed to judgement as a nation did God go outside the twelves circumcision ministery by saving one from those he had declared as blind hypocrites in Matthew 23:26-27.

The twelve did not have a two fold ministery like Christ, and Paul did, you keep saying there was only one Gospel, but it had many phases of good news revealed through Gods time table at the start it was the kingdom gospel which was before the crosses finished work for all, and is not the salvation message of the gospel of the grace of God that was because of what he did on the cross but held back till the law covenant was set aside, the kingdom gospels message was strickly to the circumcision after the cross or the astonishment of acts 10 would not have happened, not till Israels new covenant was rejected did the Lord start! to reveal the full measure of grace that he would reveal through this chief of sinners Paul, the new covenant of the Spirit didnt just revolve around the nations new covenants of promises but went beyond Adam and the creation to Gods hidden plans never revealed to man about the unsearchable riches of Glory it self, where the believer is said to appear with Christ not awaiting for his appearing like the Abrahamic promises, and blessings foretold.

Zeke.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

His death for the sins of mankind was for ALL, ....

Jesus did not tell anyone that he was not come "to the Gentiles" in His lifetime, for He came to the Jew first, and then to the Gentiles. I am "not come but[and only to] to" is wrested by MAD to their own destruction, for Jesus already had come to the Gentiles and went to the Gentiles after He sent His disciples over Israel, "to the Jew first", on their first mission evangelizing trip through Israel, but told them to not go "by the Way of the Gentiles" "nor stay in any village of the Samaritans", cause "the Way of the Gentiles" is the Road to Galilee, through Samaria, where Jesus began His ministry before He called all His Apostles and disciples.
first, the children are fed, then the dogs, Jesus said, and all Gentiles are not called dogs, and Jesus spoke to one Cananite woman and MAd uses the targeted words to a specific person and makes false doctrine which is proived false in the OT and the NT, all over the place -and I heartily wish that you would read the Scriptures instead of regurgitating MAD doctrine handbooks, and learn the doctrine of Christ [Hebrews 6], which is the Foundational doctrine of the One Faith, which is the One Church].

After that mission evangelizing trip, when the disciples returned, Then Jesus took His Apostles 'By the Way of the Gentiles -into Galilee- and through Samaria, and stayed in a village and preached the Gospel and they believed in His name, for He stayed there two days -and the Samaritans are Gentiles "Strangers".

Mad is the most unright "division" of separating sectarianism outside Watchtower and Mormonism that I have ever learned of!
-and "ordinances of the One Faith are water baptism and keeping Christ as our Passover!!! Ordinances and traditions are the same Greek word, sir...

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Then you have Paul, who not one of Paul’s epistles does Paul give one word of instruction to his churches, pastors, or evangelists to baptize. Not one word of instruction to members of the Body of Christ to practice this ceremony is given by Paul.

Because Jesus already gave that instruction, which Saul preached, and all to whom Paul wrote letters to had already obeyed the LORD's commands and ordinances, and kept those ordinances to apply to those who also came into the Name of the One LORD [in His One Faith once delivered to the Saints], by the adoption in Spirit, and were already water baptized....for the "dead" [old man they wear, which is to rise again in the image of the New Man, the Israel Man of the second Creation of human beings, a second Temple for the Glory to indwell].
After Jesus said a man must be born of Water and the Spirit to inherit eternal life, He commanded water baptism, and the Word is that Water, in Scripture, and He is the Word made flesh, and the Spirit and the Word and the Glory all three come to indwell the born again in Spirit Believer - the washing of the water of the Word is not water baptism, never was, never will be!

Excuse this redundant reply to your redundant, false, wrested, statement, but Paul the Apostle never wrote one letter to sinners who were in need of being saved, sir, but Paul the Apostle wrote only to
Born again
Water baptized
Pentecostal
Jew and Gentile
male and female
slave and free
Believers in the One Name, in the One Faith, who had already been laid on the One Chief foundation of the One New Temple being built for the Father's Glory to indwell in the regeneration, so Paul the Apostle did not reduntantly tell them to lay the One Foundation of repentence and obedience to the One Faith to be saved!

FYI: Barnabas, as I pointed out to you several times, using the Scripture proofs, who was one of the 70 chosen commissioned disciples of the LORD Jesus, was called to be an Apostle to the same Gentiles to whom Saul was called and commissioned to go to -at the same time, by the Same LORD, and commissioned by the same laying on of hands of the elders at Antioch.

Then, after Paul's hissy fit for Barnabas wanting to take John Mark with them again, one of Paul's co-Apostles to the Gentiles was Silas, who was also of the 70, one of the "chief among the elders" in Jerusalem...

The doctrine of MAD cannot stand the test of proving all things by the Word of God.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

...
Zeke.

The Spirit of Promise -New Life- was promised to Abraham: The Glory was promised to Israel, and only to Israel, and only Israel gets the Glory, and Israel is the Name of the New Man, and if you are not born into His One Living Spirit by the second birth, and if you do not obey Him, then you will not get the inheritance promised to Israel, which He shares with all His namesake people in the regeneration...

 

[Zeke]

The Spirit of Promise -New Life- was promised to Abraham: The Glory was promised to Israel, and only to Israel, and only Israel gets the Glory, and Israel is the Name of the New Man, and if you are not born into His One Living Spirit by the second birth, and if you do not obey Him, then you will not get the inheritance promised to Israel, which He shares with all His namesake people in the regeneration...

Dont think so! unsearchable riches, one twain new man, new hope, never before revealed to any man till AFTER! Israel, and the Jew were no longer being dealt with, the nation fell to judgement, and people were scatterd amongst the gentile nations to whom the salvation of God was sent, after salvation was no longer of the Jew, or through the Jew, or first rights, we have the new calling being presented by Paul who was no longer chained to the hope of Israel, you have the believer risen, and seated with Christ, only after the probational period offer of the new covenant which was cut off for unbelief, you have something that has nothing to do with Abrahamic promises, and was dealing with a mystery, Gods purpose before the foundation of the world, and heavenly.
Your living in the postponed shadows of Israel, replacement alert!

Zeke.