Fictional.OK mythical if it helps...
You'll have to ask Michelle, change 'our history', Obama.
K: I'm here to discuss scripture (Jn 17:17). oly:
War on Christmas
- Thread starter serpentdove
- Start date
You'll have to ask Michelle, change 'our history', Obama.
K: I'm here to discuss scripture (Jn 17:17). oly:
TweetyBird
New member
What historical evidence puts John's conception around the 4th month?
I don't really think that God was trying to play the match game. After all, Jesus died at Passover with all the ties to Yom Kippur and fulfilling all the feasts therein, so I don't think a birth at Tabernacles is indicative. His Spirit indwelt around Passover too, so one could say He fulfilled Tabernacles then as well [made His home in us].
If it weren't for Jesus, there would be no Christmas, regardless of when it's celebrated. In fact, the date of Dec 25 is just one of many that were being used as His birthdate.
Celebrating Christmas is not "of the world". It's about Jesus - worshiping Him, celebrating Him - just like he angels and shepherds did. Even the magi came and worshiped after two years and I highly doubt it was the anniversary of His actual birth
TweetyBird
New member
Naysayers can't gainsay (Lk 21:15).
Do you have a problem with actual dialogue that you have to keep posting all these links to conspiracy theories?
TweetyBird
New member
You'll have to ask Michelle, change 'our history', Obama.
You are not discussing anything. You post links and Scripture references and think you are somehow imparting revelation or wisdom. Hint: It's neither.
TweetyBird
New member
The links you post are hyper sensationalized junk = conspiracy theories. Christmas is not the bad guy, it's not demonic. The only ones making war against Christmas are people looking for a devil under every tree and by golly, they are going to find one.
DavidK
New member
Zecharias was of the order of Abijah, which served during the 4th month. His visitation was during his service, and John was conceived when his service was complete.
I wouldn't base Jesus birth solely on Tabernacles, but the evidence in the Gospel of Luke points to the month of the fall feasts, and Tabernacles makes more sense than Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur. Just want to reiterate I hold these things lightly, hence my use of the language "likely" and "more appropriate".
Clearly, our Father has appointed the times and seasons to point to His Son, as evidence by His death and resurrection with Passover and Firstfruits, and the pouring out of the Spirit on the Feast of Weeks. It makes more sense for me to teach my children about His birth around the time it happened, and show how it ties into Sukkot a lot more than the winter solstice.
It certainly wouldn't be called Christmas, a portion of (but not all) Christmas songs would be gone. There'd be no living nativities. But winter solstice celebrations are common enough in cultures that it's entirely possible without Christianity in North America and Europe there'd still be lights on trees, swags of evergreen, red and green ribbon, gift giving and solemn but merry evening gatherings.
Christmas as we celebrate it is a big ol' swirl of borrowed traditions and Christianity.
Celebrating Christmas is not "of the world". It's about Jesus - worshiping Him, celebrating Him - just like he angels and shepherds did. Even the magi came and worshiped after two years and I highly doubt it was the anniversary of His actual birth
I didn't communicate very clearly the point I was trying to make. I'm not saying celebrating Christmas is "of the world". I was trying to say that if our Christian holidays had never been conflated with the larger culture's holidays, it might be easier to see ourselves as a separate people. We're supposed to know ourselves as members of another kingdom, ambassadors and sojourners in the nations in which we find ourselves. When the popular culture looks Christian, it's harder to keep our hearts on the eternal.
One of the things that has kept the Jews so distinct in their identity throughout the diaspora is their adherence to custom and observance strange to the culture in which they live. It has been a common reminder to them that they have another home.
I'm not a "Christmas is of the devil and we must all return to worshipping on the proper days!" kind of person. Like I said, we still do Christmas at our house. My initial comment was throwing out the thought that maybe ramping up to defend Christmas from the Liberal War Against It might be defending ground we'd be better off not holding.
DavidK
New member
Yeah, I ran across this about a year ago, I think it was. Definitely interesting, though I've no head for time charts and astronomical observation. I had a head for math when I was young, but haven't exercised it enough in the last twenty years, I think.
Still, I watch, pray, and ask our Lord to make me ready. The beautiful thing is that you don't need to have a specific timeline to know the time is short. The apostles new the time was short, and it's 2000 years closer, so how much more urgent are our Savior's words?
Imagine if every generation between now and then had lived like they expected the Lord's return during their lifetime. In essence, from an individual's point of view, He does return in our lifetime, since all we have is that handful of decades to live.
It's funny and sad that this has become such a huge sin in the eyes of believers. Yes, many have set dates and been wrong. Yes, many have gone off into error because of those dates. But while He walked the earth Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour but the Father. He did say if we watched and prayed we would know the season.
There are several things we should be able to recognize and start counting down 42 months to at least a very narrow window.
Me, too (Lk 21:36). :thumb:
He would come as a thief in the night for them not for us (1 Thess 5:2,4).
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TweetyBird
New member
Exactly where is this information found?
The problem is that there is no such event as "Rosh Hashanna" in the Bible. Where does the book of Luke point to the fall feasts for the birth of Christ? I also did not say that Jesus was born at Yom Kippur, but that His sacrifice on the cross fulfilled Yom Kippur and all the other feasts.
The winter solstice is not on Dec 25. People have been coming up with theories since the first century and no one is any closer to guessing the date then, as now. To think that you are teaching your children to celebrate on a day/time/season that you came up with by your own calculations is as disingenuous as the finger pointing towards Christians who use Dec 25.
The word "Christmas" means Christ was Sent. Why do you object to that?
The birth of Christ is not a tradition. The angels who celebrated, the shepherds who worshiped are not traditions. The birth of Christ, the prophecies of His coming, His conception, the announcement by the Angel, the Angel appearing to Joseph, the Holy Spirit inspired words spoken by Zacharias, Elizabeth, and Mary were not traditions. They are actual for real events that Christians point to in recognition of the greatest gift that God has given to the world. The entire NT is full of verses recognizing His birth. The NT was written because of His birth, which was the catalyst for the Gospel.
Traditions of lights and gatherings, songs and decorations, etc are tools that people use to dress up the occasion. There is nothing more striking than a live nativity, bringing to life what happened 2000 years ago. The old Carols and Christina music being written today are glorious Scripture set to music, declaring the Supremacy of our Lord and Savior and His saving Grace. It is a beautiful festive time of year that Christians revel in as a joyous occasion to spread the Good News throughout the world. Even the secular ends up bowing the knee to our Lord in ways they do not ever see or imagine. His birth is all around us, infusing the world with the knowledge of Christ Jesus.
Being a Christian/separated for the Lord really has nothing to do with what the world does with Christmas does it? Christmas is not about being a separate people divided from the world. The shepherds did not just go and worship Baby Jesus and then go hide so they could be "separate" - they went all over sharing the good news with everyone they came in contact with. That is what Christmas is for.
The Jews keep Hanukkah which is now known as the "Jewish Christmas", complete with trees, gifts, lights and goodies and whole lot of trimmings
You understand that Jews have no problem with people celebrating Christmas? Are you aware that most of their traditions on their feasts days have been "borrowed" from the secular and "paganism"?I don't believe in "defending our ground". I believe in shouting Jesus from the housetops and if Christmas is going to help get the job done - Hallelujah :thumb::drum::Elaine::BRAVO::tunes:
This thread was stared in November of 2013.
Is Halloween Evil? Why Witches, Occultists And Satanists Celebrate Halloween And Why You Should Not
DavidK
New member
1 Chronicles, Talmud
All right, we can call it Yom Teruah if that helps.
It describes the time of John's conception and how that relates to Christ's conception. It's my understanding that the shepherds were unlikely to be out in the fields with sheep during winter as well, so it's another bit of information that points away from late December.
We do know that all the law and prophets testify of Christ. The feasts testify of Him.
I'm aware Chrysostom calculated differently to get to December 25, but some time in Tishrei looks more right to me. Again, I'll reiterate I don't consider this to be some foundational issue. I could be wrong, and don't think it would matter much if I am.
I know you didn't. I was saying that it looks like He was born in the seventh month, and if I had to pick from the holy days there, Sukkot makes the most sense.
Four days off! Egads! Would it help if I use the term "midwinter celebration" instead? Or will you point out that technically winter starts on the solstice and ends on equinox, so midwinter would be much later? The point is that without Christ you could easily end up with the secular version of Christmas as practiced in the west.
Nah, we are careful to teach them why we think it's around there, but not declare it as important fact. It's good to acknowledge one can be wrong about many things.
Did I object to the name?
Absolutely. No argument here.
Except it can also have the effect of innoculating the world to the gospel. Those outside celebrate a form of truth, and think they have encountered, and therefore can dismiss truth.
Not talking about hiding. I'm talking about how confused Christian's can become when they see the culture around them acting a form of Christianity but denying the power thereof. It's easy to think you are surrounded by people who have engaged with and accepted the Gospel, when really they are just following the traditions of their predecessors and thinking they are saved.
The Jews keep Hanukkah which is now known as the "Jewish Christmas", complete with trees, gifts, lights and goodies and whole lot of trimmings
I'm still not getting my point across. Jews have, of course, adopted things from the cultures they've lived in, but the cultures didn't start mirroring the Jews and absorb their holidays. When everyone else goes off to work on the days you stay home, it is a valuable reminder that you have a different identity.
When America celebrates Christmas, it's easy for Christians to think that America is Christian.
I'm clearly doing a very poor job of saying what I mean.
Great. That's not true of some. Some believers feel they need to defend Christmas against the corrupting liberals who want to secularize it. If Americans stop saying Merry Christmas as a cultural thing, then the ones left will be real believers saying Merry Christmas, and that will be more of a witness for its strangeness.
TweetyBird
New member
1 Chronicles says nothing about the 4th month being the course of Abijah.
The Talmud is not a credible source of information regarding the courses of the Levis. It is a man made system.
Yom Teruah and two different celebrations. Yom Teruah is found in the OT, Rosh Hashanna is a man made event with no Scriptural support.
Luke says nothing about it being winter.
True enough, but pointing to Christ and revealing Him are two different things. The Mosaic Law does not reveal Christ.
It's interesting that the conception of Jesus early on - 2nd and 3rd centuries put His conception and birth in the Spring. Chrys was not the original source for Dec 25. There were other dates scattered throughout the year. The 4th century solidified the Dec 25 date, but it was already a popular date for recognizing His birth. It's hard to get a solid handle on it with so many varying historical sources. One thing I do know, the connection to the winter solstice is a complete myth.
["According to Clement of Alexandria [200AD], several different days had been proposed by various Christian groups. Surprising as it may seem, Clement doesn’t mention December 25 at all. Clement writes: “There are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord’s birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the 28th year of Augustus, and in the 25th day of [the Egyptian month] Pachon [May 20 in our calendar] … And treating of His Passion, with very great accuracy, some say that it took place in the 16th year of Tiberius, on the 25th of Phamenoth [March 21]; and others on the 25th of Pharmuthi [April 21] and others say that on the 19th of Pharmuthi [April 15] the Savior suffered. Further, others say that He was born on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi [April 20 or 21].”
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...w-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/ "]
It may make sense to you, but in all the reading I have done about the origins of Christmas, that time of year was never considered.
Recognition of the winter solstice varies from one culture to another. The association to the Roman actual solstice of Dec 17-23 is still off. The myth is very definite - that Dec 25 was the exact solstice.
I don't see what difference it makes if there is a secular version of Christmas to those who choose to celebrate Christ's birth on Dec 25. There is a secular version of Easter as well, that does not cancel out the Resurrection of Christ in the Spring :idea:
I see it from a different angle. Even unbelievers acknowledge the reason for Christmas. No other time of year is He allowed into the secular venue as much as He is at Christmas. When secular TV Christmas progams, movies, radio, decor, store product, etc include Christmas Carols, based on Scripture, as the cultural traditions in this county, the Gospel is heard.
I don't see that as a problem. I do see a problem with considering it a "denial of power" which in context had to with intentional sin. For the believer, the inclusion of the secular only makes the message of Christ more powerful. The purpose of Christmas is to declare the birth of Christ, the Savior, regardless of secular or even Christian perversions. Even Paul said, "What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. [Phil 1:18]
I don't see what that has to do with Christmas. Maybe you are just commenting on the Jewish religion?
I think it goes much deeper than that. Christian Americans have been spoon fed the myth that the USA was built upon a Godly foundation and the God has blessed her for being so "godly", and now "losing His blessing and facing judgment" for the flavor of the week sin she is appears to promote ..... Not ...... Patriotism among Christians is very high. It has little to do with Christmas.
Christmas is secular. It will always be secularized. It's like a snowball rolling downhill. Christmas is almost year around business. Decorations make their way to the shelves earlier ever year. I started seeing it July this year! We do not need to defend Christmas. We just need to use it to our advantage, and I see nothing wrong with that. Lots of non-believers say "Merry Christmas". It tickles me, really it does
Many, many Christians are being forced to stop saying "Merry Christmas". Back in the late 80s the principle at my daughter's high school would not allow that term to be usedb because of the diversity of religions in that school. When you go into most stores, the employees are not allowed to say "Merry Christmas". I say it often during Dec in reply to "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays". It does not squelch my delight in the season in the least. People will do what they will regardless of how I feel about it all. If one is going to use that as an excuse not to find the joy in the season, it's pretty pathetic.
TweetyBird
New member
Rejoice! The Lord Has Come!
http://threekingsgifts.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/standard-nativity.jpg
http://threekingsgifts.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/standard-nativity.jpg
TweetyBird
New member
He shall reign forevermore
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5UXgs6nvGM
"He Shall Reign Forevermore" ~ Chris Tomlin
In the bleak mid-winter, all creation groans
For a world in darkness, frozen like a stone
Light is breaking, in a stable
For a throne
And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
Unto us a child is born
The King of kings and Lord of lords
And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
If I were a wise man, I would travel far
And if I were a shepherd, I would do my part
But poor as I am
I will give to Him my heart
And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
Unto us a child is born
The King of kings and Lord of lords
And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
Here within a manger lies
The One who made the starry skies
This baby born for sacrifice
Christ, the Messiah
Into our hopes, into our fears
The Savior of the world appears
The promise of eternal years
Christ, the Messiah
He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
Unto us a child is born
The King of kings and Lord of lords
And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5UXgs6nvGM
"He Shall Reign Forevermore" ~ Chris Tomlin
In the bleak mid-winter, all creation groans
For a world in darkness, frozen like a stone
Light is breaking, in a stable
For a throne
And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
Unto us a child is born
The King of kings and Lord of lords
And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
If I were a wise man, I would travel far
And if I were a shepherd, I would do my part
But poor as I am
I will give to Him my heart
And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
Unto us a child is born
The King of kings and Lord of lords
And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
Here within a manger lies
The One who made the starry skies
This baby born for sacrifice
Christ, the Messiah
Into our hopes, into our fears
The Savior of the world appears
The promise of eternal years
Christ, the Messiah
He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
Unto us a child is born
The King of kings and Lord of lords
And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore