Trinity Proof Scriptures

[7djengo7]

Isn't it amazing how the Jews that misunderstood just about everything Jesus said suddenly became Trinitarians?

Why would Trinitarians desire to stone Jesus to death for His having said "I and my Father are one", when Trinitarians consistently, loudly declare that Jesus and His Father are one?

Why would Trinitarians accuse Jesus of blasphemy for Jesus' calling Himself God, when Trinitarians consistently, loudly call Jesus God?

The Jews understood that Jesus was preaching Trinitarianism; that's why they hated Him, that's why you hate Him.

Do you even read the things you write?

You're not the first enemy of Christ I've observed saying what you just said. It seems that you cannot distinguish between, on the one hand, the Jews' understanding that Christ was declaring Himself to be God and, on the other hand, the Jews' refusal to believe Christ's declaration that He is God. Refusal to believe Christ's declaration that He is God is not Trinitarianism, else I'd be calling you, rather than myself, a Trinitarian. It is rank anti-Trinitarianism.

 

[Aimiel]

No, it doesn't obviously mean anything...

Obviously. :think:

 

[7djengo7]

That would be evidence but not proof. Do you acknowledge that evidence is not necessarily proof?

Is there a difference between evidence and proof?

 

[Rosenritter]

In his post #125, Right Divider wrote:



Your reaction to that was to write:



Right Divider didn't write nonsense; he meant something in what he wrote. He affirmed a proposition. No proposition is nonsense; every proposition is meaningful. Every proposition is either true or false, and whatever is either true or false is not nonsense. Now, here's the proposition Right Divider is affirming:

[Every instance of lying] is [an instance of a person lying to a person].
​

Only an abject fool--someone devoted to irrationality--will be willing to say that that proposition is FALSE. Obviously, you are aware of this, and, thus, you understand the embarrassment in which you'd necessarily involve yourself by claiming that Right Divider's proposition is FALSE. And yet, you, obviously, must needs hate to admit, publicly, that Right Divider's proposition is TRUE. So, you thought you would somehow help yourself by saying that Right Divider's proposition is NONSENSE. But, that ploy's just now been exploded, and it didn't help you. So, make yourself clear. Here, again, is the proposition:

Every instance of lying is an instance of a person lying to a person.​

What do you say of it? Is it TRUE or is it FALSE? It is one or the other, so which do you say it is?

Here's a fun syllogism for you to react to:

Major Premise: Every instance of lying is an instance of a person lying to a person,

Minor Premise: Ananias' lying to the Holy Ghost is an instance of lying,

ERGO,
Conclusion: Ananias' lying to the Holy Ghost is an instance of a person lying to a person.​

So long as both the Major Premise and the Minor Premise of this syllogism are true, the Conclusion MUST be true. As an heretic, you deny the Conclusion, obviously, so which Premise do you deny (if not both of them)?

Can you lie to the IRS?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Can you lie to the IRS?

A group of people? Sure.

 

[Rosenritter]

Only an idiot would think that proposition is true.
The very first clue that it is a false proposition is the use of the word "every".
There are other problems with the proposition,such as the lack of a reliable common definition for person and the attempt to use this lack to come to the false conclusion that you can turn anything into a person by telling it a lie.

I've heard of someone "lying to their diary" meaning that in court they claimed that what they wrote in their diary which was being used as evidence wasn't true. I remember Rush Limbaugh mocking the situation.

 

[Rosenritter]

My claim and point you had an issue with was that I said 'only the Father Jehovah is called the Most high and Jesus is the Son of the Most high', you challenged this by asking if I base my beliefs on what Demons do or do not say. I then showed how not only demons teach what I initially showed but Angels too stated the very same thing!

Now you're saying that you don't believe any of the bible supports my claim??? This makes no sense since Luke 1:28-31 clearly supports my claim, namely that Jesus is the Son of the Most high. Also, find me a verse where it calls Jesus the most high, and good luck if you actually attempt this, since the bible never does.

If I'm wrong, prove it with scripture.

Numbers 24:16 establishes that "God" and "most High" and "Almighty" are synonymous terms of reference.

Numbers 24:16 KJV
(16) He hath said, which heard the words of God, and knew the knowledge of the most High, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open:

Psalm 83:18 establishes that he whose name is JEHOVAH is the most high.

Psalms 83:18 KJV
(18) That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Exodus 6:3 confirms that God is called both God Almighty and JEHOVAH, which is the same as the most high.

Exodus 6:3 KJV
(3) And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

No argument yet @NWL? No protest that this linkage is unwarranted?

Isaiah 12:2 KJV
(2) Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

Isaiah 26:4 KJV
(4) Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

See Isaiah references above, LORD is the same as Jehovah, the Almighty, and the most high God.

Isaiah 41:4 KJV
(4) Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 44:6 KJV
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12-13 KJV
(12) Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
(13) Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

See the above references in Isaiah 41:4, 44:6, and 48:12, God (the Almighty, Jehovah, the most high God) has a special identification for himself as the first and the last which statement has the significance of:

1. He called the generations from the beginning
2. His hand laid the foundation of the earth
3. And besides which there is no other God

Revelation 1:8-11 KJV
(8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
(9) I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(10) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
(11) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 2:8 KJV
(8) And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 22:13-16 KJV
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Revelation confirms that this title is still being used consistently for "the Almighty" in the sense used in Isaiah, the only sense this term has ever been used in the entire scripture, and then proceeds to use the title of identification THREE ADDITIONAL MORE TIMES in a fashion that no one can deny applies to JESUS.

. Also, find me a verse where it calls Jesus the most high, and good luck if you actually attempt this, since the bible never does.

If I'm wrong, prove it with scripture.

Done.

How many more times does Jesus have to repeat this before it is to be believed? Shouldn't his final word in scripture be the final word for us, enough to cut through any other misunderstanding? Just listen to what he says in the book titled "Revelation?"

 

[Rosenritter]

There is NO indication that this is what he meant by what is written. "My Lord and my God," cannot be said to mean: "I now want to thank my Lord and God," It obviously means: "You are my Lord and my God!" I don't believe that ignoring his exclamation is being honest with yourself.I still say that if one doesn't believe that Jesus is God, in The Flesh that they are missing the single over-running theme of the New Testament. It simply boggles my mind every time I run into anyone who doesn't believe that Christ is God, in The Flesh. :nono:

John 1:10-14 KJV
(10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
(11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
(12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
(16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[Rosenritter]

No, it doesn't obviously mean anything, in fact, without the context it is impossible to discern the meaning of those 5 words.

Let me prove my point.

I answered, and said to Wendy; "my brother, and my dog".

Please tell me what I meant.

Dartman, it does obviously mean "You are my Lord and my God." I have read the Unitarian websites and most of them (and their authors) acknowledge that is what it certainly looks like. They do spend lots of effort trying to counteract that scripture, and there are various inventive and creative ways different from your own, but all this does demonstrate that they need this to argue against the obvious meaning.

For example, Sean Finnegan ("biblical unitarian")
http://www.christianmonotheism.com/...ayer.php?chosen=speakers&mode=speakers&data=1

Spends 20 typewritten pages and 65 minutes trying to deal with this problem, and his "solution" isn't the same as yours. There is an obvious meaning, but it's the one you are spending so much energy arguing against.

 

[Rosenritter]

Is there a difference between evidence and proof?

In this sense, I mean "proof" to be what can stand and be decisive on its own, and "evidence" that which sums together so that its weight indicates or more strongly indicates towards a direction. I apologize if that is not the standard meaning, but that is what I meant to convey. If there are more accurate terms for what I meant please feel free to provide them.

 

[Rosenritter]

A group of people? Sure.

Can I lie to Google? I made an account so my daughter could log in to play a video game on an old Android device. I might have exaggerated her age a little so that she would make the minimum to have her own email account (she is age two in real life.) Are Google's automated server scripts a person?

 

[NWL]

Numbers 24:16 establishes that "God" and "most High" and "Almighty" are synonymous terms of reference.

Numbers 24:16 KJV
(16) He hath said, which heard the words of God, and knew the knowledge of the most High, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open:

Psalm 83:18 establishes that he whose name is JEHOVAH is the most high.

Psalms 83:18 KJV
(18) That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Exodus 6:3 confirms that God is called both God Almighty and JEHOVAH, which is the same as the most high.

Exodus 6:3 KJV
(3) And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

No argument yet @NWL? No protest that this linkage is unwarranted?

Isaiah 12:2 KJV
(2) Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

Isaiah 26:4 KJV
(4) Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

See Isaiah references above, LORD is the same as Jehovah, the Almighty, and the most high God.

Isaiah 41:4 KJV
(4) Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 44:6 KJV
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12-13 KJV
(12) Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
(13) Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

See the above references in Isaiah 41:4, 44:6, and 48:12, God (the Almighty, Jehovah, the most high God) has a special identification for himself as the first and the last which statement has the significance of:

1. He called the generations from the beginning
2. His hand laid the foundation of the earth
3. And besides which there is no other God

Revelation 1:8-11 KJV
(8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
(9) I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(10) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
(11) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 2:8 KJV
(8) And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 22:13-16 KJV
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Revelation confirms that this title is still being used consistently for "the Almighty" in the sense used in Isaiah, the only sense this term has ever been used in the entire scripture, and then proceeds to use the title of identification THREE ADDITIONAL MORE TIMES in a fashion that no one can deny applies to JESUS.



Done.

How many more times does Jesus have to repeat this before it is to be believed? Shouldn't his final word in scripture be the final word for us, enough to cut through any other misunderstanding? Just listen to what he says in the book titled "Revelation?"

Rosenritter, I thank you for you repsonse, you are unlike others who run away at the reasoning I give. I am well aware that it takes time to write such a response so thank you.

I get your point and reasoning but can think of reasons why it's not correct in my opinion, which I will demonstrate. You have shown that terms God, ALMIGHTY, Jehovah and most high are terms that are applied to one person, which I too believe. You have then shown that Jehovah is also called the first and the last (Isaiah verses). You have then shown verses in revelation that reference Jesus being the first and the last. You're reasoning is that since Jehovah is mentioned as the first and the last and is clearly also known as the Most high, ALMIGHTY and God that Jesus is that same being, since, he is referred to as "the first and the last" and also ALMIGHTY according to the verses you showed in revelation, especially Rev 1:8.

I will now demonstrate why your reasoning is not correct according to my knowledge of the scriptures.

The foundation of your reasoning rest on the statements of Jesus being the "first and the last" and him being the person spoken of in Rev 1:8 who is referred to as "the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty". I must also say it is bad practice to argue a point on a verse which is debated, namely Rev 1:11. The reading of Rev 1:11 in the way the KJV renders it is argued by most modern days scholars as spurious(a forgery) since it is not found in any of the earliest manuscripts, hence the reason why it is not rendered that way in most bible's today.

One of the point I argue is that when Jesus is called "the first and the last" that's it's an relating to something different to when Jehovah is called the "first and the last" in the OT. When can see this when comparing the context of the verses in question.

(Isaiah 41:4) "..Who has acted and done this,Summoning the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, am the First One;And with the last ones I am the same.."

(Isaiah 44:6) "..This is what Jehovah says,The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last.There is no God but me.."

(Isaiah 48:11-13) "..For my own sake, for my own sake I will act,For how could I let myself be profaned? I give my glory to no one else. 12 Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I have called.I am the same One. I am the first; I am also the last.."

The context of the above verses are in regards to Jehovah being sovereign, the only God and not sharing his deity with any God since he is the only one. Now let's look at the context of when Jesus is called the "first and the last".

(Rev 1:17-18) "..[Jesus] laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.."

(Rev 2:8) "..And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrʹna write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again.."

Notice that the context of Jesus being the "first and the last" relate to his death and resurrection. This is s completely different contrast to Jehovah being called "the first and the last" where the context relates to him being 'the only God'. Jesus is called the first and the last since he was the first person who was raised from the dead by the God himself, and he was the last person who was raised by God directly. All other resurrections are to be done by means of Jesus. Where a God is the first and the last in the sense that he is the first God and last/only God who ever will be.

Regarding the identity the one spoken of in Rev 1:8, this one is NOT Jesus. This is clear by reading the context to Rev 1 as I will show. Notice, the "one who is and who was and who is coming" is the same person as the Almighty as seen in Rev 1:8

(Rec 1:8) "..I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says the Lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.."

Now notice how Rev 1:4-5 mentions the "one who is and who was and who is coming" along with other persons below.

(Rev 1:4-5) "..May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” AND from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5 AND from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead.."

Jesus is clearly a separate person from the "one who is and who was and who is coming" in Rev 1:4-5, thus Jesus is not the "one who is and who was and who is coming" in Rev 1:8, this is irrefutable and plain as day.

To recap, I have demonstrated that Jesus being "the first and the last" and Jehovah being "the first and the last" in the relevant verses relate to different things, they are called the first and the last for different reasons. We see this throughout scripture with such expressions as "King of kings", more than one person can have an expression applied to them without the need to illogical conclude they are the same person especially when context shows that there is a difference.

I have also shown how Jesus is not the one being spoke of in Rev 1:8 (the one who is coming) as he is clearly mentioned as a separate person from that one in Rev 1:4-5.

Therefore, the reasoning you gave to try and prove that Jesus is the most high fails, Jesus is and always will be the son OF the most high, as scripture plainly states.

 

[NWL]

As an anti-Trinitarian, why do you modify the name 'Jehovah' by the phrase 'the Father'?

I have done no such thing, once again, I apply the bible's standards and only use language and teachings that it itself explains.

(Isaiah 64:8) "..But now, O Jehovah, you are our Father.."

As you can see Jehovah = the Father. Therefore I use this standard when speaking about Jehovah, understanding that Jehovah and the father are synonymous names for God.

You believe that Jesus created all things except for himself, and you deny that Jesus is Jehovah. So, you believe that Jesus created Jehovah.

But, you claim that you worship Jehovah (Who, says you, created Jesus), and you despise the worship of Jesus. So, you worship what you consider to be the creature more than what you consider to be the creator. So, you're a rank idolater.

Jesus did not create Jehovah, this goes without saying.

Where have I said I don't worship Jesus? You are a man of assumptions and false accusations my friend. I do worship Jesus since this is the method that the father deems all persons to worship him. I worship the Father by worshiping Jesus, who passes all glory to his father. This a basic truth.

(Philippians 2:9-11) "..For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 1so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.."

Your claim is that Jesus should not be called the Most High God. That is the claim you have pretended to base on what an unclean spirit spoke. Then, when I called you out on your foolishness, you turned around and denied that you have pretended to base your claim on what an unclean spirit spoke, and you said, "No, I base it on the Bible", and handed me another verse that ALSO doesn't provide any basis for your claim that Jesus should not be called the Most High God.

The fact is, your first resort, in attempting to prop up your falsehood, was to refer to what was spoken by an unclean spirit; you didn't even bother with trying to hide your true homage.

Where have I said that Jesus should not be called the most high, show me the post number. I've only ever stated that Jesus is never called the most high, but is referred to as the Son of the most high.

Again, you're pretending my original claim was that Jesus shouldn't be called the most high when it wasn't. You're purposely lying in regards to what I said to try and prove that I'm somehow wrong. Once again, show me my quote where I stated Jesus should NOT be called the most high, I never did, all I said was Jesus is never called the most high, only the father is and that Jesus is the Son of the most high.

Do you claim to know my level of biblical knowledge, then how do you know that I was basing a claim on one scripture as you say? Just because I showed you a single scripture it would be foolish to assume I had only come to the general conclusion based on that single scripture. As I said, I based my understanding on the entire bible, just because I used a single scripture in my post to you does not mean that wad the only scripture I was basing my understanding on.

The verse I used showed exactly what I was claiming, namely, that Jesus was the Son of the most high (the verse also implies that Jesus is not the most high since he is the Son of that one - not that this is the point I was originally arguing).

You are plainly wrong and deceitful in regards to what you said, if I'm somehow mistaken, prove it.

Why do you think Jesus should not be referred to by the phrase, "the Most High God"?

I've never made this claim, this has been imagined up by you to try and excuse the poor responses you made to my posts.

Again, the only claim I made was that Jesus is never referred to as the most high and is referred to the Son of the most high.

Why do you think Jesus should not be referred to by the phrase, "the man who was crucified at Calvary"?
Why do you think Jesus should not be referred to by the phrase, "one born in the Roman Empire, while Augustus was emperor"?

Moreover the question you should be asking is why should Jesus be called the most high, since, he's never called the most high but is rather called the Son of the most high one.

He could be referred to both of those things since the bible makes the claim that Jesus was born under Roman rule (Luke 2:1-7) and that he was killed at the Calvary (Luke 23:33) and that's exactly the point, if the whereabouts of Jesus death or the fact he was born under Roman rule were left out the bible then it would be unscriptual to make a claim of those things, since it's not shown in scripture. As I said before Jesus is never spoken of as the most high but the Son of that one, thus to claim he is the most high us scriptural. The questions you asked do not compliment each other or prove the same thing.

 

[NWL]

I too believe Jesus created all things, but with the exception of himself. You're probably thinking, well John 1:3 says "all things were made through him", thus he HAD to have created all things himself, so how can it be "with the exception of himself" as I have stated. If you are thinking this you should realize that when scripture says "all things" it doesn't literally have to mean all things, as I can demonstrate.

(Hebrews 2:7-10) "..You made him [Man] a little lower than angels; you crowned him with glory and honor, and appointed him over the works of your hands. 8 All things you subjected under his feet.” By subjecting all things to him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him. 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death.."

Hebrew 2 states God subjected "all things" under Man/Adam feet and went so far as to say that "God left nothing that is not subject to him". So lets see if your argument remains consistent when you answer this, when God subject "all things" under Man/Adams feet and left "NOTHING that is NOT" subject to him, was God himself subjected to man, since he too is no doubt part of all things, and [were] the Angels subjected to man since they as well are part of all things?

Fallacious logic. Welcome to my ignore list.

I really do feel pity for you friend. Instead of dealing with any of my reasoning -which cleary proves your point incorrect- you choose to claim I'm using "fallacious logic" in an attempt to justify your lack of a response, It's quite transparent and saddening.

 

[clefty]

Rosenritter, I thank you for you repsonse, you are unlike others who run away at the reasoning I give. I am well aware that it takes time to write such a response so thank you.

I get your point and reasoning but can think of reasons why it's not correct in my opinion, which I will demonstrate. You have shown that terms God, ALMIGHTY, Jehovah and most high are terms that are applied to one person, which I too believe. You have then shown that Jehovah is also called the first and the last (Isaiah verses). You have then shown verses in revelation that reference Jesus being the first and the last. You're reasoning is that since Jehovah is mentioned as the first and the last and is clearly also known as the Most high, ALMIGHTY and God that Jesus is that same being, since, he is referred to as "the first and the last" and also ALMIGHTY according to the verses you showed in revelation, especially Rev 1:8.

I will now demonstrate why your reasoning is not correct according to my knowledge of the scriptures.

The foundation of your reasoning rest on the statements of Jesus being the "first and the last" and him being the person spoken of in Rev 1:8 who is referred to as "the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty". I must also say it is bad practice to argue a point on a verse which is debated, namely Rev 1:11. The reading of Rev 1:11 in the way the KJV renders it is argued by most modern days scholars as spurious(a forgery) since it is not found in any of the earliest manuscripts, hence the reason why it is not rendered that way in most bible's today.

One of the point I argue is that when Jesus is called "the first and the last" that's it's an relating to something different to when Jehovah is called the "first and the last" in the OT. When can see this when comparing the context of the verses in question.

(Isaiah 41:4) "..Who has acted and done this,Summoning the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, am the First One;And with the last ones I am the same.."

(Isaiah 44:6) "..This is what Jehovah says,The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last.There is no God but me.."

(Isaiah 48:11-13) "..For my own sake, for my own sake I will act,For how could I let myself be profaned? I give my glory to no one else. 12 Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I have called.I am the same One. I am the first; I am also the last.."

The context of the above verses are in regards to Jehovah being sovereign, the only God and not sharing his deity with any God since he is the only one. Now let's look at the context of when Jesus is called the "first and the last".

(Rev 1:17-18) "..[Jesus] laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.."

(Rev 2:8) "..And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrʹna write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again.."

Notice that the context of Jesus being the "first and the last" relate to his death and resurrection. This is s completely different contrast to Jehovah being called "the first and the last" where the context relates to him being 'the only God'. Jesus is called the first and the last since he was the first person who was raised from the dead by the God himself, and he was the last person who was raised by God directly. All other resurrections are to be done by means of Jesus. Where a God is the first and the last in the sense that he is the first God and last/only God who ever will be.

Regarding the identity the one spoken of in Rev 1:8, this one is NOT Jesus. This is clear by reading the context to Rev 1 as I will show. Notice, the "one who is and who was and who is coming" is the same person as the Almighty as seen in Rev 1:8

(Rec 1:8) "..I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says the Lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.."

Now notice how Rev 1:4-5 mentions the "one who is and who was and who is coming" along with other persons below.

(Rev 1:4-5) "..May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” AND from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5 AND from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead.."

Jesus is clearly a separate person from the "one who is and who was and who is coming" in Rev 1:4-5, thus Jesus is not the "one who is and who was and who is coming" in Rev 1:8, this is irrefutable and plain as day.

To recap, I have demonstrated that Jesus being "the first and the last" and Jehovah being "the first and the last" in the relevant verses relate to different things, they are called the first and the last for different reasons. We see this throughout scripture with such expressions as "King of kings", more than one person can have an expression applied to them without the need to illogical conclude they are the same person especially when context shows that there is a difference.

I have also shown how Jesus is not the one being spoke of in Rev 1:8 (the one who is coming) as he is clearly mentioned as a separate person from that one in Rev 1:4-5.

Therefore, the reasoning you gave to try and prove that Jesus is the most high fails, Jesus is and always will be the son OF the most high, as scripture plainly states.

Yup and as I have come to understand it...Yahushua is the FIRST and LAST BEGOTTEN Son...and being the first and the last He remains for eternity the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON...the rest of us are born to be re-born as His sons...not IMMORTAL but eternal

He is INDEED the first and last and yet being BEGOTTEN there was a time He was not...and not at all...but then finally begotten...NOT IMMORTAL as His Father is THERE IS ONLY ONE...but now finally begotten He is ETERNAL...

The Son was born in Spirit and reborn into flesh that we who are born in flesh may be reborn into Spirit...and we become His brothers if we do OUR Father’s will...

HalleluYah

 

[NWL]

You believe that Jesus created all things except for himself, and you deny that Jesus is Jehovah. So, you believe that Jesus created Jehovah.

But, you claim that you worship Jehovah (Who, says you, created Jesus), and you despise the worship of Jesus. So, you worship what you consider to be the creature more than what you consider to be the creator. So, you're a rank idolater.

Maybe you could answer the question I asked Right Divider which caused him to run away and block me.

I stated and asked the following to him:

I too believe Jesus created all things, but with the exception of himself. You're probably thinking, well John 1:3 says "all things were made through him", thus he HAD to have created all things himself, so how can it be "with the exception of himself" as I have stated. If you are thinking this you should realize that when scripture says "all things" it doesn't literally have to mean all things, as I can demonstrate.

(Hebrews 2:7-10) "..You made him [Man] a little lower than angels; you crowned him with glory and honor, and appointed him over the works of your hands. 8 All things you subjected under his feet.” By subjecting all things to him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him. 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death.."

Hebrew 2 states God subjected "all things" under Man/Adam feet and went so far as to say that "God left nothing that is not subject to him". So lets see if your argument remains consistent when you answer this, when God subject "all things" under Man/Adams feet and left "NOTHING that is NOT" subject to him, was God himself subjected to man, since he too is no doubt part of all things, and [were] the Angels subjected to man, since they [too] are part of all things?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Can I lie to Google? I made an account so my daughter could log in to play a video game on an old Android device. I might have exaggerated her age a little so that she would make the minimum to have her own email account (she is age two in real life.) Are Google's automated server scripts a person?

And did a person make that script? It's still a group of people you're lying to, who set up their policies of no one under a certain age may use their account. You're lying to them, not a script that can't tell the difference between truth and falsehood.

 

[musterion]

Maybe you could answer the question I asked Right Divider which caused him to run away and block me.

I stated and asked the following to him:

I too believe Jesus created all things, but with the exception of himself. You're probably thinking, well John 1:3 says "all things were made through him", thus he HAD to have created all things himself, so how can it be "with the exception of himself" as I have stated. If you are thinking this you should realize that when scripture says "all things" it doesn't literally have to mean all things, as I can demonstrate.

(Hebrews 2:7-10) "..You made him [Man] a little lower than angels; you crowned him with glory and honor, and appointed him over the works of your hands. 8 All things you subjected under his feet.” By subjecting all things to him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him. 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death.."

Hebrew 2 states God subjected "all things" under Man/Adam feet and went so far as to say that "God left nothing that is not subject to him". So lets see if your argument remains consistent when you answer this, when God subject "all things" under Man/Adams feet and left "NOTHING that is NOT" subject to him, was God himself subjected to man, since he too is no doubt part of all things, and [were] the Angels subjected to man, since they [too] are part of all things?

If you think Christ is the highest created being, you are essentially Mormon.

 

[achduke]

Luk 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,

Who anointed Christ? God.

Act 10:38 "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Joh 5:30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Joh 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

 

[Oleander]

If happen to die today and I go to haven, and I stand before God.
What kind of throne I'll see?
Do I see God the father alone?
Do I see Jesus the man?
Do I see Jesus the God?
Do I see God the father and his son?
Do I see the holy spirit?
Do I see throne of 3 seats, 2 seats, or one seat?