It seems some Christians and Roman Catholiics have trouble with this concept. I've read an number of books by John Piper, John MacArthur and R. C. Sproul, but I don't believe I've heard it explaind any better than this series. Listen, enjoy and learn.
This verse shows that there is no such thing as total depravity.
Matthew 7:11 11"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
We would have to be totally absent from the presence of God all around us, in order to be totally depraved.
The problem with Calvinistic total depravity is that the world view that lies behind Calvinism cannot cope with the idea that both man and God can be good. In this world view God is all good, therefore man cannot be any good. Similarly, God is all powerful therefore man cannot have any power.
The Calvinistic doctrine of the fall of man and total depravity are fundamental to this world view because this worldview needs a historical event to occur which renders man useless. Let's put it another way: if there was no such thing as the fall of man, Calvinism would have to invent one and the Genesis 3 narratives happen to fit the bill so it was they that fell prey to the Calvinistic presupposition.
Of course, the doctrine of the fall of man was around long before Calvin was a twinkle in his mother's eye. It is after all a Greek world view that we are talking about. Nevertheless he espoused it even more than any previously such that it morphed into full blown depravity doctrine.
Calvinistic total depravity as the result of a historical event is analogous to the gnostic idea of a demiurge in a-historical terms. In gnosticism, the original ONE, cannot possibly create anything evil or imperfect and so a series of intermediate creations eventually become the agents of the creation of an imperfect world.
In gnosticism, at least those in the know can find their way back to the ONE. In Calvinism, there is only hope for the elect and there is no salvation or purpose to look forward to for anyone else.
Thanks, but I'll stick to the Bible.
Let me introduce you to Cain and Abel.
Gen. 4:3-7Then let Paul introduce you to those Gentiles, WHO DID BY NATURE THE THINGS contained in the law...their CONSCIENCE bearing witness.
And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Romans 2:14-15
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
This verse shows that there is no such thing as total depravity.
Matthew 7:11 11"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
We would have to be totally absent from the presence of God all around us, in order to be totally depraved.
"There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer—I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me, do I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply, I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it." - Charles H. Spurgeon
“And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else” - Charles H. Spurgeon
SOURCE: From The Autobiography of Charles H. Spurgeon, Curts and Jennings, Cincinnati - Chicago - St. Louis, 1898, Vol. I., Page 172.
So there's no need to introduce me to any biblical character. I do not believe you, I believe the bible as did Spurgeon and Calvin before me.
Can your works get you to Heaven without Jesus? Can anyone?
The depravity of man is a choice as shown in the above posts. The capacity for good & evil lies within us all, and we make the choice to move towards God or to follow our flesh towards evil. If we are made in the image & likeness of God than it is impossible to be "Totally Depraved" being we also carry some of God's attributes as A4T shows in Matt 7:11 the capacity for good also, we may be partially depraved because of our sinful flesh but, not totally.
I gave you verses from Scripture and you give me men?
How about just addressing the verses, themselves?
I guess you consider Charles Spurgeon a heretic in the same vein as John Calvin.
Then Jesus died for no reason. All the sacrifices demanded by God were for no reason. So David was wrong when he wrote:
<DIR>Psa 14:1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God.
Psa 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
Psa 14:4 Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord?
Psa 14:5 There they are in great dread, For God is with the righteous generation.
Psa 14:6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted, But the LORD is his refuge.
Psa 14:7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores His captive people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.
</DIR>Or when Paul says the same thing in Romans (3:10).
The problem with Calvinistic total depravity is that the world view that lies behind Calvinism cannot cope with the idea that both man and God can be good. In this world view God is all good, therefore man cannot be any good. Similarly, God is all powerful therefore man cannot have any power.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you just misread my previous reply. I asked if you were calling men like CH Spurgeon and John Calvin heretics? If you wish to call them who are Christians as heretics within the body of Christ, it is your right to as a Christian, as the bible says. We are not to tolerate un-Christian behavior. (1 Corinthians 5:12-5:13 HCSB)I am not in the habit of calling people heretics. God will do the judging, not me. In order to protect the faith from false teachers, it is necessary only to denounce their false teachings and show why they are false. Calling someone a heretic merely demonstrates your intellectual inferiority.
I called no one in the body of Christ a heretic. I asked if you were. If I were not in the Church, judgment would be Gods. (1 Corinthians 5:12-5:13 HCSB) I do not believe you'll find me calling a non-Christian a heretic. Within the Christian community, we are instructed not to tolerate sinful behavior that may lead others astray.Each of us stands or falls by our relationship with God. Sure, we get things wrong from time to time in our beliefs but when you have to lay down the law to protect your own teaching from opposition, (calling others heretics, anathema, burning them with extra slow burning wood - especially if their name happens to begin and end with s - etc.) you have already abandoned your faith in the Holy Spirit. You have taken over the Holy Spirit's own work.
Charles H. Spurgeon is revered by many Christians, Calvinists and Reformed. That basically covers a lot of Christians. I presented it for information purposes only. If it doesn't apply, disregard.In any case I can't work out why you would think I have anything to do with Charles Spurgeon? Whatever vein Calvin was in, Spurgeon was also in by his own admission. You don't need to ask me that.
You are very welcome. I hope to present the other letters of TULIP as time permits. I hope you don't take anything I've said as personal, I'm just talking (writing) within the limits Paul and others set forth in their teaching. I'm not a teacher, nor am I qualified to preach to others. I will make mistakes. By recognizing those mistakes, and being corrected by other Christians like yourself, will make the whole body of Christ stronger.By the way, thanks for starting the thread. It's a good subject to discuss.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you just misread my previous reply. I asked if you were calling men like CH Spurgeon and John Calvin heretics? If you wish to call them who are Christians as heretics within the body of Christ, it is your right to as a Christian, as the bible says. We are not to tolerate un-Christian behavior. (1 Corinthians 5:12-5:13 HCSB)
Glad to hear it.I called no one in the body of Christ a heretic.
It's not a question of my disregarding it if it doesn't apply. You brought the subject up as if it were important to the discussion. In fact I don't believe you dealt with anything in my first post at all. You did not engage with me.Charles H. Spurgeon is revered by many Christians, Calvinists and Reformed. That basically covers a lot of Christians. I presented it for information purposes only. If it doesn't apply, disregard.
Thank you. Perhaps you could continue by actually engaging with my first post. As you say, it is not personal but that doesn't mean that when I write something, I am not a person.You are very welcome. I hope to present the other letters of TULIP as time permits. I hope you don't take anything I've said as personal, I'm just talking (writing) within the limits Paul and others set forth in their teaching. I'm not a teacher, nor am I qualified to preach to others. I will make mistakes. By recognizing those mistakes, and being corrected by other Christians like yourself, will make the whole body of Christ stronger.
How so?, if man has the capacity for good also then he is not totally depraved, totally means completely. Sacrifices for anyones benefit is because we miss the mark of perfection which is the standard. There is only One who is perfect and lived perfectly after all and David a man after God's own heart, was not completely depraved but, he surely missed the mark in many places as we all do. I just don't buy the total depravity calvinist doctrine.
How so?, if man has the capacity for good also then he is not totally depraved, totally means completely. Sacrifices for anyones benefit is because we miss the mark of perfection which is the standard. There is only One who is perfect and lived perfectly after all and David a man after God's own heart, was not completely depraved but, he surely missed the mark in many places as we all do. I just don't buy the total depravity calvinist doctrine.