You're the one that ask me the question I was answering!
Come on!
I choose to be done with this conversation.
toldailytopic: Should Christians involve themselves in politics?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
You're the one that ask me the question I was answering!
Come on!
I choose to be done with this conversation.
Being that there are few elected officials that represent the Libertarian Party, they have little to no influence on legislation at this time. (If their numbers grow, that could change).
However, since some of their policies (as shown) mirror that of the Democratic Party, parts of their Party Platform have already been accomplished.
http://www.lp.org/platform
If I'm understanding your perspective ... I believe I agree with you.
All
oatmeal
Well-known member
Last edited:
faramir77
New member
political rhetoric sophistry.
Banking, Finance, Military, Corperate, Academia.
Whatsoever thy findeth thy hand to do, do it all to/for the Glory of the LORD.
a biblically literate person, lead by The Spirit, intimately acquainted with the Word,
can speak 'truth to power' as speaking truth to power was intended to be.
The beauty of this dumbed-down generation, is they're just too easy to manipulate.
Banking, Finance, Military, Corperate, Academia.
Whatsoever thy findeth thy hand to do, do it all to/for the Glory of the LORD.
a biblically literate person, lead by The Spirit, intimately acquainted with the Word,
can speak 'truth to power' as speaking truth to power was intended to be.
The beauty of this dumbed-down generation, is they're just too easy to manipulate.
This Christian does.
csuguy
Well-known member
By going out and talking to people and winning them over through Christian love and by convincing them of our views on an individual basis.
Yep.
csuguy
Well-known member
Sure it is. Just because I believe on has to do works doesn't mean that just ANY work counts. Voting is irrelevant and has nothing to do with our responsibilities as Christians.
do we have a responsibility to try and make this a better world?
I don't really consider that to be the public sphere. That seems to be a private sphere if it is just talking to people on an individual basis. :AMR:
Why?
csuguy
Well-known member
Yes and no. Yes, we have a responsibility to the people of the world and to making them better, no we do not have a responsibility to take on every en devour there is which might make the world better.
There is only so much time in the day and we must prioritize our efforts, we must identify what is important and what, while potentially good, is not so important. For Christians, that means identifying what Jesus commanded us to do, what God's will is for us.
We have two primary responsibilities as Christians: 1)Spread the gospel and make disciples. 2) Take care of the poor, defend the weak, and, in short, love our neighbors.
Having identified our responsibilities it is then our task to identify the best means of fulfilling them. Is it through trying to force some of our views onto people via a godless political system? I think not. Anything that did get through would be contorted anyways.
Rather, our efforts are better spent working with individuals and helping them grown and learn. God is personal, so to we must reach people on a personal level.
We should focus on this and not other things. Don't waste your time studying and debating politics, instead study and debate theology. Don't focus your efforts on preserving animal species that are dying out, focus your efforts on your fellow man who has no roof over his head and has no food. While you should recycle if the option is available, don't get wrapped up in environmental movements and go tie yourself to a tree.
should we try to do something about abortion?
csuguy
Well-known member
If you are going out into the public and sharing the gospel and helping those you find, you are influencing the public sphere. Remember, the public is merely the collection of individuals. If you influence the individuals you influence the public.
1. Politics is innately corrupt. It is debated through rhetoric, not logic. Mixing Christianity with politics will necessarily corrupt Christianity, as can be seen historically. It can also be seen today - how many Right Wing Christians have I seen who say that helping the poor is an evil?
2. Paul stressed unity and that we get along as much as possible with those around us, conforming to their customs and laws. Religious debates produce enough division, we don't need politics to divide us on top of that.
3. As I pointed out to Chrys, there is only so much time in the day. We must prioritize our efforts, focusing on God's will for us as found in Jesus' commands to us.
4. Any 'good' legislation that does go through is necessarily going to be corrupted and abused by the legislators. Rather than waste your time trying to get the government to get things right and to do good for their citizens, spend your time actually doing good for the citizens. Focus your efforts on helping the poor and needy.
I could come up with more, but that should be sufficient.
csuguy
Well-known member
Yes, and we should do so by convincing others that it is wrong; not by trying to outlaw it. If you convince them that it is wrong it will naturally be outlawed and it will cease from being done.
It just seems like you have removed any distinction between private and public spheres. What do you mean by going out in the public and sharing the gospel?
How are politics innately corrupt? There is a lot of rhetoric in political discourse but it's not something that can't be changed. If Christians get into positions of power it can definitely corrupt them. That's a risk, but that seems separate from voting.
No Christian says helping the poor is evil. They might argue about how it is done though.
A valid concern. But I think this is more about how we act rather than voting in and of itself.
Prioritizing doesn't mean we can't, or shouldn't, vote. I agree that political involvement shouldn't be a #1 priority, but I don't think that means it has to be completely set aside.
Basically a repeat of what I said above.
You presented all valid concerns but I'm not sure I see any of those as arguments against voting itself, rather they are about how we should conduct ourselves in the political arena and also what our priorities should be.
csuguy
Well-known member
I mean just that: go into the public and share the gospel. There are many ways of doing it, the point is to get out there and spread the gospel. Ultimately it is best done with individuals or small groups, but you must go to the people to meet the individuals. By getting known publicly, you get people curious; and then you can sit down with them privately.
And indeed, the distinction between public and private in this context is a bit artificial. The public is merely the collection of private individuals. If you influence the individuals you influence the entire public sphere.
Then of course there are ministries where you actively go out into the community and help those in need. Go buy lunch for that man on the street and sit down with him and talk about his life, get to know him. Go with a small church group and pray with prisoners. Get out into the community; if you are active in the community you will be known publicly.
Politics is all about convincing the masses to vote a certain way or feel a certain way towards a leader or government action; and the mass is foolish and without reason. Tell them what they want to hear and you will win, tell them what they don't and you'll be called terrorist, communist, etc. The reason politics is fundamentally rhetorical and corrupt is because its audience is fundamentally foolish and emotional vs logical. Politicians known for a long time how to influence and take advantage of the populace; and it isn't through reasoning with them.
As for your second comment: it is not a matter of who gets voted in. Once the Church is tied to the state bad things happen; theology is influenced by state interests, "heretics" are killed or banished with the power of the state based upon who the ruling churches leaders say are "heretics," and "Holy" Wars are waged against the "heathens" to whom we must use the power of the state to forcibly convert. Not to say it starts off like this, but inevitably the mixture goes awry.
Yes, they do. They say giving the poor money is evil because you are "enabling them." They have pre-judged the poor as lazy drunks and druggies who should disappear rather than "steal" tax-payer money.
Of course, if you want to play semantics then of course you could exclude these individuals from those you call Christian; not that it wouldn't be warranted.
Voting and expressing your political views is an act, a public act. Or do you think you should vote but keep your political views private? I would imagine, if you are concerned about politics, that you would want to debate politics and convince others of the position you think is best so that there is a better chance of it getting voted for.
Naturally, politics (much in the same way as you know theology can) enrages many, if you say something contrary to what they believe. Like theology, it naturally produces divisions. Theology is vital to Christianity and shouldn't be done away with, politics is another matter; it is unnecessary and divisive. Therefore, it should be done away with amongst Christians. You wouldn't want a priest preaching on politics after all, would you?
If it isn't a priority, and you are truly devoting yourself to our priorities, you won't have time to keep up with politics. Voting, in of itself, isn't a virtue. If one is going to vote it must be done only following much research and debate into a matter. Mindlessly voting based upon the rhetoric you hear means nothing.
And if you do all this research and debating, what good is it if you don't influence others to vote similarly? A single vote means nothing after all. Being political, that is if you are going to do it correctly, is thus a very time consuming process and will inevitably take away from your true priorities as a Christian.
Se above. Being political isn't a part time thing, not if you want to be a knowledgeable voter dedicated to seeing the 'right' laws passed and the 'right' people in office. Voting, if you are going to do it, shouldn't be a whimsical thing. It becomes a whole nother job. It will thus naturally take away from your real priorities and it will cause divisions amongst Christians and the non-Christians you are supposed to be evangelizing.
And then, of course, there is the issue that we live in a secular state. Will your religion seep into your politics or your politics into your religion? It is quite difficult, if not impossible, to keep them seperate; and I have already given one instance where this happens amongst Right Wing Christians.
Krsto
Well-known member
Some people here seem to have a very narrow and skewed view of politics which may apply to some degree to what goes on in DC, though I can't say for sure since I've never been there, but certainly not to what goes on in the state capitals, county commission meetings, and city hall. That's where legislation has the most effect on our lives, good, bad, or ugly. I was on staff at our state legislature so can speak from experience.
"Legislating morality" could only be considered about one hundredth of one percent of what a legislator has to deal with. Christians don't run for office so they can enforce their morality on others, for the most part. But when moral issues do come up they do want legislation that reflects Christian principles and values.
Let me give a rather mundane example. If you have a heart for poor people then you can appreciate this. As a "professional student" for 11 years I was always poor and having got my degrees in things that don't enable me to get good jobs I still am (though my business may eventually get me out of that catagory). As one living on a shoestring I understood how hard it is when a car breaks down on the highway to get it removed in the 24 hour time limit our state legislature gives. A lot of people like me had to wait for the next payday to come up with enough money to hire a tow truck or had to do a lot of asking around to find someone willing to go out and tow my car home. If I were a legislator one thing I would do is push for bills to make life easier for poor people, like give them 72 hours to remove a car from the side of the highway. That's doesn't seem like much and there are greater ways to help the poor that just came to mind off the top of my head. As a Christian I remembered the verse about the farmers being told by God to not harvest the corners of their fields so the poor could go in and get some food for themselves. That tells me God cares about the poor so why wouldn't God want the poor to have the benefit of Christian legislators? Why would a Christian say God says that realm doesn't belong to Christians and wants us to stay out of it? I think God cares and I think God uses Christians (and others) to help the poor. Including making legislation that helps the poor.
"Legislating morality" could only be considered about one hundredth of one percent of what a legislator has to deal with. Christians don't run for office so they can enforce their morality on others, for the most part. But when moral issues do come up they do want legislation that reflects Christian principles and values.
Let me give a rather mundane example. If you have a heart for poor people then you can appreciate this. As a "professional student" for 11 years I was always poor and having got my degrees in things that don't enable me to get good jobs I still am (though my business may eventually get me out of that catagory). As one living on a shoestring I understood how hard it is when a car breaks down on the highway to get it removed in the 24 hour time limit our state legislature gives. A lot of people like me had to wait for the next payday to come up with enough money to hire a tow truck or had to do a lot of asking around to find someone willing to go out and tow my car home. If I were a legislator one thing I would do is push for bills to make life easier for poor people, like give them 72 hours to remove a car from the side of the highway. That's doesn't seem like much and there are greater ways to help the poor that just came to mind off the top of my head. As a Christian I remembered the verse about the farmers being told by God to not harvest the corners of their fields so the poor could go in and get some food for themselves. That tells me God cares about the poor so why wouldn't God want the poor to have the benefit of Christian legislators? Why would a Christian say God says that realm doesn't belong to Christians and wants us to stay out of it? I think God cares and I think God uses Christians (and others) to help the poor. Including making legislation that helps the poor.