toldailytopic: People say: You can't legislate morality. Is that true?

[Silent Hunter]

Which, interestingly enough, was his second choice as a username, if I recall correctly. :think: SH is a decent enough sort and bright as well. He's also young and brash and laboring under the wants that attend his years, both in perspective and biology.

Thank you . . . I think . . . LOL . . . "Bright?" I perfer "sunshiny," LOL.

You know, we aren't required to treat nonsense or declaration with respect as argument. It's sufficient from time to time to say, "That's lovely. Now be a good fellow and go sharpen your ax."

I was hoping the slight would garner a reaction different from anger . . . from an angry person . . .

This is an example of that sort of error. Either he's aware of Aquinas, and Augustine, and Merton, and Lewis, and Newton, and on and on down the line of brilliant minds who have and continue to embrace the Christian faith or he isn't. If he is then he understands that the posture he's adopting is just that and its only real point is to prick your ears. If he isn't then he isn't worth talking to on the subject at this point anyway.

I'm quite aware of these (and other) pillars of the human intellect.

The phrase that piqued me was, " . . . taking as true what your mind perceives as gibberish, BS or straight nonsense," (which I interpreted as the beliefs and doctrines of Christianity) followed by, "Not every mind can pull that off." (Perhaps Ny meant something else, :idunno:. Instead of clarifying, which I would have accepted as you know, he lashed out.)

If the story of Morman drives you to not in Kansas anymore (gibberish, BS, and nonsense) try understanding the Bible story from the same outsider perspective.

If we assume (for the discussion) the above mentioned individuals "minds" perceived the Bible as "gibberish, BS, and straight nonsense" then they did indeed "pull off" something rather incredible; they managed to delude themselves into believing "gibberish, BS, and straight nonsense" to be true.

Either way you're wasting energy on countering as though it will or could have effect. That's not why he's here. Just have a little sport with him if it interests you or shake your head at him if it doesn't.

Why AM I here? Just having a little sport with those who manage to "pull off" belief in "gibberish, BS, and straight nonsense" :think:.

btw . . .

ROLL TIDE!

 

[Silent Hunter]

I'm not a Christian. I follow other faith (Asatrú).

Whether they should or should not struggle with their faith and ultimately give it up is their call. I will not presume to know the right decisions for others in their spiritual life.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Freedom of conscience is certainly good for both goose and gander.

I've read the Bible. It don't want to offend anybody, but it didn't make sense at all and I feel the God it depicts is frankly evil. I would not worship it.

But it's not my faith, and I'm sure they have their reasons to believe as they do. I probably don't agree with those but it's not my call to make.

Sorry to offend. Never my intention . . . and agree with most of your posts (if you've noticed the pos rep on past posts) . . . and agree with this one as well . . . K.U.T.G.W.

 

[john w]

Actually, these things DON'T exist in reality . . . they are constructs of the human mind . . . so your challenge is (as usual) a red herring, an non sequitur, and (gasp) a straw man . . .

The invisible and the nonexistent are often very much alike. . .

_

Prove these invisible things of love, pain, hate, greed..... exist, using "science."-John W

"Actually, these things DON'T exist in reality . . . they are constructs of the human mind ."-Silent Hunter

So, we can conclude that we can disregard your "posts," your "thoughts," as they do not exist in reality. Lovely.

These are the words of a mentally distraught person, a twisted pretzel, entangled in a mess of ropes, strings, yarn, cobwebs, rope, neurons, so that he can't think straight.

The net is great for getting it all out in the open-Log in, lose your mind.

 

[Nydhogg]

Sorry to offend. Never my intention . . . and agree with most of your posts (if you've noticed the pos rep on past posts) . . . and agree with this one as well . . . K.U.T.G.W.

I also agree with most of your posting.

Atheism and anti-theism are perfectly tenable, but that post came as patronizing and patronizing is bad apologetics, even for atheism.

It was just a friendly correction.

:cheers:


I could explain to you shortly and to the point my reasons to believe. I'm not a strong believer positively convinced of the existence of the Gods, but...

1) I've sort of been able to *feel* their presence. It's not persuasive, I know (I might have been deluding myself, or I could even be lying through my teeth to gain converts) but it did play a part in my converting.
2) By honoring the Gods and keeping the rites I honor my heritage and my ancestors, which is a plus.
3) My religion doesn't have weird hang ups with sexuality or
fun. What is forbidden is for the most part genuine jerkassery (backstabbing, swindling et al) aside from sacrilegy (not unbelief, not even blasphemy, but actively desecrating the rites). Even if the Gods were to not exist, I would not miss on anything.
4) The rites are hella fun, consisting on ritual toasting and feasting. It's great to socialize and it helps tribe cohesion, and since it's solstice and equinox-based, it also honors nature as well.
5) It's comforting to believe there are friendly entities out there willing to help you or actually giving a damn about you at all. It might be a crutch, but it's a harmless crutch.
6) You learn A LOT of the lore of pre-christian Europe.

 

[Silent Hunter]

Prove these invisible things of love, pain, hate, greed..... exist, using "science."-John W

Science cannot prove things that do not exist in reality . . . and has a tough time proving things that do.

These are the words of a mentally distraught person. Log in, lose your mind.

Is that what happens after 7,000+ posts. I'll be sure to stop posting long before then . . .

After this post you graduate to ignore (which I'm sure you have with most everyone on ToL). :wave2:

 

[Town Heretic]

Thank you . . . I think . . . LOL . . . "Bright?" I perfer "sunshiny," LOL.

:think: I'd say you're all in all a pleasant rascal. Close enough for you?

I was hoping the slight would garner a reaction different from anger . . . from an angry person . . .

Close enough again.

I'm quite aware of these (and other) pillars of the human intellect.

That's half the battle. The other half is reading them. oly:

The phrase that piqued me was, " . . . taking as true what your mind perceives as gibberish, BS or straight nonsense," (which I interpreted as the beliefs and doctrines of Christianity) followed by, "Not every mind can pull that off." (Perhaps Ny meant something else, :idunno:. Instead of clarifying, which I would have accepted as you know, he lashed out.)

So it was all his fault then...

If the story of Morman drives you to not in Kansas anymore (gibberish, BS, and nonsense) try understanding the Bible story from the same outsider perspective.

Interesting. I never saw any religious tome as an example of that. I approached them as human explorations of meaning and being, rife with poetic flights of imagination founded in an earnest confusion of the line between that imagination and the objectively real.

Most myth is fantastical. That doesn't make it gibberish, unless you consider metaphor gibberish...in which case remind me to never ask to borrow a book from your library.

Why AM I here? Just having a little sport with those who manage to "pull off" belief in "gibberish, BS, and straight nonsense" :think:.

I know that's why you think you're here. :chuckle:

btw . . .

ROLL TIDE!

:roses: Many thanks.

 

[Nydhogg]

If we assume (for the discussion) the above mentioned individuals "minds" perceived the Bible as "gibberish, BS, and straight nonsense" then they did indeed "pull off" something rather incredible; they managed to delude themselves into believing "gibberish, BS, and straight nonsense" to be true.

Why AM I here? Just having a little sport with those who manage to "pull off" belief in "gibberish, BS, and straight nonsense" :think:.

btw . . .

ROLL TIDE!

Hey, not really.

I was not saying the bible IS gibberish, BS and straight nonsense.

I'm saying that IF your intellect perceives it as that, forcing yourself to believe it anyway is a losing battle. No value judgement at all!

It was a jab at john w's claim that "we blindly follow our minds."
Of course we do! We can't make ourselves believe what our mind understands as false!

That was all I was saying.


I didn't like your response to that, although it was a misunderstanding. I delivered a post that might seem harsh but was actually in a friendly way. I sometimes sound sorta stern, sorry.

 

[Silent Hunter]

I also agree with most of your posting.

I try to get people to think if not always with agreeable devices.

Atheism and anti-theism are perfectly tenable, but that post came as patronizing and patronizing is bad apologetics, even for atheism.

So it did. Sorry about that Chief, 99, 86 . . . See above.

I could explain to you shortly and to the point my reasons to believe. I'm not a strong believer positively convinced of the existence of the Gods, but...

I've sort of been able to *feel* their presence. It's not persuasive, I know (I might have been deluding myself, or I could even be lying through my teeth to gain converts) but it did play a part in my converting.

Right temporal lobe stimulation will do that . . . have you ever experienced aliens?

By honoring the Gods and keeping the rites I honor my heritage and my ancestors, which is a plus.

How so? My dad was a minister.

My religion doesn't have weird hang ups with sexuality or fun. What is forbidden is for the most part genuine jerkassery (backstabbing, swindling et al) aside from sacrilegy (not unbelief, not even blasphemy, but actively desecrating the rites). Even if the Gods were to not exist, I would not miss on anything.

Neither does mine (LOL) and neither do I.

The rites are hella fun, consisting on ritual toasting and feasting. It's great to socialize and it helps tribe cohesion, and since it's solstice and equinox-based, it also honors nature as well.

Gotta love nature! Toasting and feasting . . . sounds Nordic; perhaps medieval.

It's comforting to believe there are friendly entities out there willing to help you or actually giving a damn about you at all. It might be a crutch, but it's a harmless crutch.

I prefer a soft pillow and a warm blanket myself.

You learn A LOT of the lore of pre-christian Europe.

. . . and a good history book will do the same thing . . . as would Bulfinch’s.

 

[Silent Hunter]

:think: I'd say you're all in all a pleasant rascal. Close enough for you?

Ditto!

That's half the battle. The other half is reading them.

Would you believe . . .

So it was all his fault then...

We don’t leave all our biases at the keyboard . . .

Interesting. I never saw any religious tome as an example of that. I approached them as human explorations of meaning and being, rife with poetic flights of imagination founded in an earnest confusion of the line between that imagination and the objectively real.

This is certainly true and by this standard Christianity is no different than any other myth using LDS as an additional exemplar.

Most myth is fantastical. That doesn't make it gibberish, unless you consider metaphor gibberish...in which case remind me to never ask to borrow a book from your library.

Spoken as if returning from the dead is not an extraordinary claim . . . or is it a metaphor?

I know that's why you think you're here.

OK. I’m here to figure out HOW they do it, LOL . . . “Hey Rocky . . . watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat . . .

Many thanks.

Would you believe I have a CT tattoo? Really! Last Saturday leaves me saying, “Mark who?” after Trent R’s performance . . . and the OLine too (except for Warmack's (65) three penalties).

 

[Nydhogg]

I try to get people to think if not always with agreeable devices.

So it did. Sorry about that Chief, 99, 86 . . . See above.

Right temporal lobe stimulation will do that . . . have you ever experienced aliens?

How so? My dad was a minister.

Neither does mine (LOL) and neither do I.

Gotta love nature! Toasting and feasting . . . sounds Nordic; perhaps medieval.

I prefer a soft pillow and a warm blanket myself.

. . . and a good history book will do the same thing . . . as would Bulfinch’s.

My reasons to believe weren't meant to convince you. They were meant to show you why I believe.
Asatrúar don't proselytize. We don't go looking around for reasons why you SHOULD believe. If you should, you would find them yourself.
The Gods provide for that stuff

We DO like for others to know what we believe and do, and we educate the public on it if they ask or if it's relevant. Many join instantly once they know we actually exist !


Your current ancestors are christians, yea. Mine are, too (well, a weird mix of Unitarians, Christians and Jews) But far removed there is the line of your folks back until the beginning of time, and they had their religion taken away from them by force during the Christianization. I retake what was lost and try to restore the ways of my people, that's all.

In my case, most of my ancestors are Germanic. There's a reason Asatru sounds nordic and medieval, we're restoring the pagan religion of the Germanic peoples! (vikings included). That's what Asatru is, the restoration. Many folks, when they know we're doing that, jump at the chance to join. Mainly because worshipping Thor and drinking beer from a horn toasting ritually seems fun.

Many of those new "converts" end up liking the whole deal and actually join for real.

I'm aware that your religion doesn't have hang-ups with fun either. :chuckle: I only meant to show you that my faith does not in any way imply prudishness or being a square. More like saying what I don't lose than what you'd gain. :chuckle:

You learn and understand more about the lore when you also *do* and *experience* stuff. For many, Asatrú is in fact like experimental archaeology meets SCA on steroids : Most Asatrúar have weird hobbies like fencing with actual Viking-era swords, and in especially solemn rites we kinda like doing stuff "the old way".

What kind of man are you, who would prefer a blanket and a soft pillow over a beer-horn and drunkenly daring Thor to smite your enemies and asking Odin to get you through stuff?

It feels good. *VERY* good.

 

[john w]

Science cannot prove things that do not exist in reality . . . and has a tough time proving things that do.

Is that like "It is what it is...the truth is the truth?...'Ya know....?"

Brilliant. All that "eggekashun," Jethro, and this is your contribution.Impressive.


So, you agree that your "invisble" "argument, for the non-existence of God, your premise("supporting walls"), have crumbled, as science can say nothing about love, fear, greed......as they also cannot be analyzed empirically by that which science utilizes-touch, taste, smell, hear, see.

Oh, I forgot..

"Actually, these things DON'T exist in reality . . . they are constructs of the human mind . . . so your challenge is (as usual) a red herring, an non sequitur, and (gasp) a straw man ."-Silent Hunter

And, his reliable "Hail Mary"-"so your challenge is (as usual) a red herring, an non sequitur, and (gasp) a straw man....blah blah blah and all that jazz.


"that what happens after 7,000+ posts. I'll be sure to stop posting long before then . . .

After this post you graduate to ignore (which I'm sure you have with most everyone on ToL)." --Silent Hunter

Translation-Since it is football season,

Punt. You showed me a thing or two-what happens to a man, who isolates himself from intelligent men, and is caught in a web of sophistry, and agnosticism: he opposes himself, and goes insane. Welcome to the insane asylum, also known as this graveyard earth.

 

[Silent Hunter]

Hey, not really.

I was not saying the bible IS gibberish, BS and straight nonsense.

Thanks for the clarification. Is it OK if I think (say) it (the Bible) is (gibberish, BS and straight nonsense)?

I'm saying that IF your intellect perceives it as that, forcing yourself to believe it anyway is a losing battle. No value judgement at all!

See below. Everything filters through our perceived values.

It was a jab at john w's claim that "we blindly follow our minds."

Perhaps you’ve noticed he’s “graduated.”

Of course we do! We can't make ourselves believe what our mind understands as false!

Sure we can. It happens all of the time . . . aliens, tarot cards, horoscopes . . . Christianity . . . the will to believe is very strong and people will go out of their way to believe things in spite of the lack of evidence to support their belief . . .

That was all I was saying.

I understand . . . now.

I didn't like your response to that, although it was a misunderstanding. I delivered a post that might seem harsh but was actually in a friendly way. I sometimes sound sorta stern, sorry.

My fault. Shhh. Don’t tell TH.

 

[Nydhogg]

Thanks for the clarification. Is it OK if I think (say) it (the Bible) is (gibberish, BS and straight nonsense)?

See below. Everything filters through our perceived values.

Perhaps you’ve noticed he’s “graduated.”

Sure we can. It happens all of the time . . . aliens, tarot cards, horoscopes . . . Christianity . . . the will to believe is very strong and people will go out of their way to believe things in spite of the lack of evidence to support their belief . . .

I understand . . . now.

My fault. Shhh. Don’t tell TH.

Yes, you're justified in honestly saying you perceive the Bible as that.

I consider the Bible more of an entertaining myth with a by-the-book Villain Protagonist and also a fascinating mythified account of the history of the Hebrews. That's why I like the OT way more than the NT.

He's "graduated" with good reason. Some of the theonomists and outright fundie nuts here are way more enlightening, pleasing and entertaining to debate.

Most people (even fundies) share the same elemental rules for shaping an argument. John doesn't. He does things to the structure of an argument that hurt logic in ways that should not be spoken about.

We can get ourselves to believe crazy things only if we see them as somewhat plausible to begin with. If we see something as self-evidently absurd there is no way we can accept it as true.

The headache cognitive dissonance will give you would surely discourage you before you pulled that off.

No worries. We all screw up when debating once in a while, and without anyone to point it out debating skills get dull.
We're good, pal. Keep up the good fight!

By the way, I expanded and clarified my "reasons to believe" in another post. I did it somewhat in fun, so perhaps you'll find it an entertaining read.

 

[Silent Hunter]

My reasons to believe weren't meant to convince you. They were meant to show you why I believe.

. . . and exactly what I took them as . . .

Asatrúar don't proselytize. We don't go looking around for reasons why you SHOULD believe. If you should, you would find them yourself.

How do they gain “converts?” Magazine ads? Infomercials? Toga parties?

The Gods provide for that stuff

Why have one invisible sky spirit with a split personality when you can have two (or more) fully independent invisible sky spirits.

We DO like for others to know what we believe and do, and we educate the public on it if they ask or if it's relevant. Many join instantly once they know we actually exist !

But you don’t proselytize . . . check.

Your current ancestors are christians, yea. Mine are, too (well, a weird mix of Unitarians, Christians and Jews) But far removed there is the line of your folks back until the beginning of time, and they had their religion taken away from them by force during the Christianization. I retake what was lost and try to restore the ways of my people, that's all.

Gnostics feel the same way . . .

In my case, most of my ancestors are Germanic. There's a reason Asatru sounds nordic and medieval, we're restoring the pagan religion of the Germanic peoples! (vikings included). That's what Asatru is, the restoration. Many folks, when they know we're doing that, jump at the chance to join. Mainly because worshipping Thor and drinking beer from a horn toasting ritually seems fun.

Why take a sip of wine from a tiny cup when you can toast life with a flagon of ale :cheers:

It’s a wonder Asatru hasn’t taken over the entire religious community with that kind of draw. Christians may have eternal life but Asatru has the “nectar of the gods.”

Many of those new "converts" end up liking the whole deal and actually join for real.

I can understand why. How long does it take the average “convert” to regain consciousness after their “initiation?”

I'm aware that your religion doesn't have hang-ups with fun either. I was only meaning to show you that my faith does not in any way imply prudishness or being a square. More like saying what I don't lose than what you'd gain.

As an a-theist we gain less by drinking lite beer.

You learn and understand more about the lore when you also *do* and *experience* stuff. For many, Asatrú is in fact like experimental archaeology meets SCA on steroids : Most Asatrúar have weird hobbies like fencing with actual Viking-era swords, and in especially solemn rites we kinda like doing stuff "the old way".

IC. A-theists have similar hobbies. Drinking beer though is a favorite.

What kind of man are you, who would prefer a blanket and a soft pillow over a beer-horn and drunkenly daring Thor to smite your enemies and asking Odin to get you through stuff?

I’m addicted to comfort while “sleeping it off.” Though I wish someone could go to the bathroom for me when I’m not sure which room I’m starting from.

It feels good. *VERY* good.

Everything feels good when you feel no pain.

 

[Silent Hunter]

Yes, you're justified in honestly saying you perceive the Bible as that.

I consider the Bible more of an entertaining myth with a by-the-book Villain Protagonist and also a fascinating mythified account of the history of the Hebrews. That's why I like the OT way more than the NT.

He's "graduated" with good reason. Some of the theonomists and outright fundie nuts here are way more enlightening, pleasing and entertaining to debate.

Most people (even fundies) share the same elemental rules for shaping an argument. John doesn't. He does things to the structure of an argument that hurt logic in ways that should not be spoken about.

We can get ourselves to believe crazy things only if we see them as somewhat plausible to begin with. If we see something as self-evidently absurd there is no way we can accept it as true.

The headache cognitive dissonance will give you would surely discourage you before you pulled that off.

No worries. We all screw up when debating once in a while, and without anyone to point it out debating skills get dull.
We're good, pal. Keep up the good fight!

By the way, I expanded and clarified my "reasons to believe" in another post. I did it somewhat in fun, so perhaps you'll find it an entertaining read.

. . . and I hope you appreciate my reply :cheers:.

 

[Nydhogg]

The reply was appreciated.


Technically we don't proselytize. There's no "why should you join Asatrú or be cursed" or "hey, this really is THE ONE TRUE RELIGION so give up what you're doing and join" from us.
You don't find bearded Heathens dressed in leather and carrying Havámal going door to door, though it might be awesome if we were drunk enough .

We're just little known yet, so we have to be kind of outspoken and have a Web presence and stuff so that those who would want to join to begin with know we're out there and they can. More like sending flyers about a rave to friends than Mormons boring you with their "Why we're right" speeches.

Having many Gods does have its advantages. You can feel grateful and friendly and protected and all that junk towards the Gods you like while blaming the Gods you DON'T like for bad stuff. That's the number one reason why polytheism beats monotheism.

Yea, but gnosticism is less awesome. Where's the war-gods and the beer-horns and the feasting and partying like Ragnarok is tomorrow?

Well, the feasts when we accept a new member into the tribe are sort of brutal. Some say it's like finding a long lost relative. Others consider it as good a reason as any other for a good ol' feasting. Odds are their hangovers are finished within 36 hours or they are not really Asatrúar material.

We haven't overtaken the entire religion market yet because most people haven't heard of us or they're too old for the switch to be worth it. My bet is that in ten generations the whole world worships Odin with a beer-horn in hand.

There's a reason why paganism is growing exponentially. Beer-horns and a generally healthy, non-repressive and sunny outlook on life are probably part of it. Did I mention two-pint beerhorns?

The crazier the Gods, the stronger the beer. My current group considers everything short of Weihenstëphaner Vitus (dark wheat beer. Roughly 9 degrees. German. In production since the 11th century) or equivalent home-brewed beer to be outright sacrilege.

Fencing and training as a warrior is a worthwile (and fun) hobby, and for some schools of Asatrúar thought is almost a religious commandment:

You know, if Odin picks you, after you croak you're theoretically going to fight in, like, the most awesome battle ever (Ragnarok) where you'll die for good and then be consumed by fire in a blaze of total, unqualified glory. After feasting and fighting and screwing around for a long, long time.
(That's Valhalla, the highest degree of Asatrúar heaven). Odin picks the best warriors. Do the math. The most awesome salvation by works ever: Through swordsmanship!

You wish someone could go to the bathroom for you? Ah, outsourcing the harsh work! You're actually lazy, even if you got a BS at 17! :cheers:

There it goes, for the entire world, the world's hardest theological challenge ever: I dare any guy to defend his religion, tongue-in-cheek, through strictly material benefits of his faith, without actually assuming the religion is true during said "apologetic" and make it funny to boot!