toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

[StanJ53]

Some posts behind these between you and GM have incorrect post tags which make it difficult for people to accurately respond to. Sometimes this is just an oversight on the part of the poster and sometimes it's done purposefully to mess things up. I prefer to think the former as opposed to the latter.

Here is an example or two or three or four:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3453661&postcount=405

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3453653&postcount=403

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3453636&postcount=395

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3453642&postcount=398

Oh right, sometimes GM seems to forgot how to properly post. Not sure what that's all about.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Oh right, sometimes GM seems to forgot how to properly post. Not sure what that's all about.

Now, is that a nice thing to say about a good pal of yours?

 

[StanJ53]

Now, is that a nice thing to say about a good pal of yours?

It's neither nice or not nice. In any event I fixed what I could. You have to do the other ones.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It's neither nice or not nice. In any event I fixed what I could. You have to do the other ones.

I have to what??

 

[StanJ53]

I have to what??

Fix the tag marks ( quote commands ) so they show up properly in your response. the posts are 395 and 405.

 

[StanJ53]

Nope, we shouldn't confuse the fruit, nor should we confuse the source of that fruit.
You notice it's the fruit of the kingdom that is produced IN US? All fruit comes from the Spirit within us. Whatever works we do, of our own efforts....self-directed, as it were, are works of the flesh. All the works of the flesh will be burned up, whether they be from the saved or the unsaved. They aren't fruit, but tares. This refers to the fruit produced in us by way of believing the TRUTH of the Gospel.

We are the source of fruit Glory, just as Jesus taught. He is the Water of Life that sustains us.

1. Matthew 7:17
   So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the unhealthy tree bears bad fruit.
2. Matthew 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can an unhealthy tree bear good fruit.
3. Luke 6:43-44 “For it is not a good tree that bears bad fruit, nor again, a bad tree that bears good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For they do not gather figs from thorn bushes, nor do they pick grapes from brambles.

Col. 1:5-6
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Matt. 13:18-23
Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Here we see the "fruit" I believe you are talking about. These are a result of our salvation AND a result of our being His workmanship. These pertain to the gifts and fruit of the Spirit...all His work in us and not our own.
Eph. 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Paul always gives us a fuller knowledge of these things, and I think he does so quite well here in these verses. When we go out ahead of the Spirit and attempt to do good works, they are no more than "wood, hay, and stubble," which will be burned up by the refiner's fire. We CAN and will take "credit" for those.
1 Cor. 3:12
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1 Cor. 3:13-15
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is totally NON responsive to the scripture I quoted. Why say you'll deal with each one and then don't?
All the above amounts to is deflection.
Please try your call again.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

We are the source of fruit Glory, just as Jesus taught. He is the Water of Life that sustains us.

1. Matthew 7:17
   So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the unhealthy tree bears bad fruit.
2. Matthew 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can an unhealthy tree bear good fruit.
3. Luke 6:43-44 “For it is not a good tree that bears bad fruit, nor again, a bad tree that bears good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For they do not gather figs from thorn bushes, nor do they pick grapes from brambles.

This is totally NON responsive to the scripture I quoted. Why say you'll deal with each one and then don't?
All the above amounts to is deflection.
Please try your call again.

Perhaps, you'd get better responses if you changed your
wise guy approach? You don't come off as being
a very friendly type to me!

 

[StanJ53]

Perhaps, you'd get better responses if you changed your
wise guy approach? You don't come off as being
a very friendly type to me!

Hey what can I say?

To know me is to love me.

and I'm won't be like Dona Bate.

:chuckle:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Hey what can I say?

To know me is to love me.

and I'm won't be like Dona Bate.

:chuckle:

Whose that?

 

[StanJ53]

Whose that?

I think she's Cruciform's sister.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Actually, I suffer from a profound idea that, you just might be
the kind of guy that, has a lot to say however, shows little
evidence of any true substance! Per chance, have I got you
pegged right?

You have pegged Grosnick Marowbe right with that estimate.

 

[glorydaz]

We are the source of fruit Glory, just as Jesus taught. He is the Water of Life that sustains us.

1. Matthew 7:17
   So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the unhealthy tree bears bad fruit.
2. Matthew 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can an unhealthy tree bear good fruit.
3. Luke 6:43-44 “For it is not a good tree that bears bad fruit, nor again, a bad tree that bears good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For they do not gather figs from thorn bushes, nor do they pick grapes from brambles.

I find it very odd that you think man is the source of any good thing. :think:


We SEE here the "works of the flesh."
We SEE here the "fruit of the Spirit."

Have you ever diagramed a sentence? If you have, you should think about the words "OF THE SPIRIT," which says quite clearly the Spirit is the source of FRUIT. Which is what I was attempting to explain to you.

Gal. 5:19-23
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


I have a tree in my orchard that draws nutrients from the soil and water from the ground through it's roots. What is the source, then, by which fruit is produced? Does that tree work really hard....prune itself and cover itself with spray to keep off the bugs? What is the source of the LIFE of the believer and WHO produces His fruit IN US? Can you answer that for me, please, without just quoting a couple of verses and calling it a done deal? Without the nutrients would any fruit be produced by that tree? No? Then we are not the source....we are merely the vehicle through which God produces and works HIS good pleasure.

This is totally NON responsive to the scripture I quoted. Why say you'll deal with each one and then don't?
All the above amounts to is deflection.
Please try your call again.

Stan, just because you are unable to understand what I have posted does NOT mean my answer was unresponsive. It simply means your understanding leaves something to be desired. What is it, exactly, you think I have failed to address. That would be the easier way to get me to address what it is you want.

 

[StanJ53]

I find it very odd that you think man is the source of any good thing.

Well of course you do and you won't even deal with the scriptures I offer but present others that will hopefully frame your assertions in a better light. We are the ones with free will and we are the ones that are penalized for NOT producing good fruit or good works, so yes we produce.
Not sure why you can't see that? As far as I can tell, all you want to do is be contrary and equivocate.

We SEE here the "works of the flesh."
We SEE here the "fruit of the Spirit."
Have you ever diagramed a sentence? If you have, you should think about the words "OF THE SPIRIT," which says quite clearly the Spirit is the source of FRUIT. Which is what I was attempting to explain to you.

Yes we do, but this was NOT what I was dealing with. Jesus spoke about it a lot in John 15.
v2; Every branch in me that bears no fruit he cuts off, but every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, so that it may bear more fruit.
v4; Abide in me and I will abide in you. Just as the branch is not able to bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in me.
v5; I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who abides in me and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
v8; My Father is glorified in this, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples.
v16; You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that the Father may give you whatever you ask in my name.

Somehow you seem to think Paul is teaching something different than Jesus was when in fact, if you look carefully, when it comes to OUR fruit, he teaches the same thing.
Romans 6:22
But now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification, and its outcome, eternal life.
Romans 7:4
So then, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ that you might belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, so that we might bear fruit for God.
Romans 8:23 And not only this, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

I have a tree in my orchard that draws nutrients from the soil and water from the ground through it's roots. What is the source, then, by which fruit is produced? Does that tree work really hard....prune itself and cover itself with spray to keep off the bugs? What is the source of the LIFE of the believer and WHO produces His fruit IN US? Can you answer that for me, please, without just quoting a couple of verses and calling it a done deal? Without the nutrients would any fruit be produced by that tree? No? Then we are not the source....we are merely the vehicle through which God produces and works HIS good pleasure.

So you think we are condemned for NOT producing good fruit because Jesus or the Holy Spirit didn't do their job properly?
If it is so natural for us, then why are we told to produce good fruit?
As I said before, Jesus is the Water of Life as He Himself said in John 4.
He gives us what we need to produce the Good Fruit.

Stan, just because you are unable to understand what I have posted does NOT mean my answer was unresponsive. It simply means your understanding leaves something to be desired. What is it, exactly, you think I have failed to address. That would be the easier way to get me to address what it is you want.

Just because I hold you to account for what you said you would do, does NOT mean I don't understand the scriptures you quoted, but it is very apparent that you post was designed to deflect away from answering the verses that support why I quoted them. You know as well as I do what they indicate and you seem hell bent on avoiding the issue.
You seem to think scriptures contradict one another or at least you posted them in such an attempt as to cause equivocation.

I'd be more than happy to take each one of the verses on one at a time, if you really want to know what they are saying.

Apparently, based on your response afterwards, you either don't know what they are saying or you don't agree and try to present something that will support what you think the truth is, instead of seeing what the Word of God says. I really can't be bothered playing games like this Glory and quite frankly thought better of you. Guess I was wrong.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Well of course you do and you won't even deal with the scriptures I offer but present others that will hopefully frame your assertions in a better light. We are the ones with free will and we are the ones that are penalized for NOT producing good fruit or good works, so yes we produce.
Not sure why you can't see that? As far as I can tell, all you want to do is be contrary and equivocate.







Yes we do, but this was NOT what I was dealing with. Jesus spoke about it a lot in John 15.
v2; Every branch in me that bears no fruit he cuts off, but every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, so that it may bear more fruit.
v4; Abide in me and I will abide in you. Just as the branch is not able to bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in me.
v5; I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who abides in me and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
v8; My Father is glorified in this, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples.
v16; You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that the Father may give you whatever you ask in my name.

Somehow you seem to think Paul is teaching something different than Jesus was when in fact, if you look carefully, when it comes to OUR fruit, he teaches the same thing.
Romans 6:22
But now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification, and its outcome, eternal life.
Romans 7:4
So then, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ that you might belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, so that we might bear fruit for God.
Romans 8:23 And not only this, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies.








So you think we are condemned for NOT producing good fruit because Jesus or the Holy Spirit didn't do their job properly?
If it is so natural for us, then why are we told to produce good fruit?
As I said before, Jesus is the Water of Life as He Himself said in John 4.
He gives us what we need to produce the Good Fruit.







Just because I hold you to account for what you said you would do, does NOT mean I don't understand the scriptures you quoted, but it is very apparent that you post was designed to deflect away from answering the verses that support why I quoted them. You know as well as I do what they indicate and you seem hell bent on avoiding the issue.
You seem to think scriptures contradict one another or at least you posted them in such an attempt as to cause equivocation.

​

Apparently, based on your response afterwards, you either don't know what they are saying or you don't agree and try to present something that will support what you think the truth is, instead of seeing what the Word of God says. I really can't be bothered playing games like this Glory and quite frankly thought better of you. Guess I was wrong.

Lets face it, you wouldn't have accepted the answers either way
they were presented! You're just one of those type fellas!

 

[glorydaz]

Well of course you do and you won't even deal with the scriptures I offer but present others that will hopefully frame your assertions in a better light. We are the ones with free will and we are the ones that are penalized for NOT producing good fruit or good works, so yes we produce.
Not sure why you can't see that? As far as I can tell, all you want to do is be contrary and equivocate.


Yes we do, but this was NOT what I was dealing with. Jesus spoke about it a lot in John 15.
v2; Every branch in me that bears no fruit he cuts off, but every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, so that it may bear more fruit.v4; Abide in me and I will abide in you. Just as the branch is not able to bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in me.v5; I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who abides in me and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.v8; My Father is glorified in this, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples.
v16; You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that the Father may give you whatever you ask in my name.

Somehow you seem to think Paul is teaching something different than Jesus was when in fact, if you look carefully, when it comes to OUR fruit, he teaches the same thing.
Romans 6:22
But now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification, and its outcome, eternal life.
Romans 7:4
So then, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ that you might belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, so that we might bear fruit for God.
Romans 8:23 And not only this, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

Do you understand the difference between "BEARING FRUIT" and being the SOURCE of that fruit? Do you see the words, "The fruit you GET?" You claimed we are the source of the fruit, did you not? We bear fruit, and that fruit is of the Holy Spirit. Does the clay form itself into a vase, or does the Potter form the clay. The clay is not the source in any way.

So you think we are condemned for NOT producing good fruit because Jesus or the Holy Spirit didn't do their job properly?
If it is so natural for us, then why are we told to produce good fruit?
As I said before, Jesus is the Water of Life as He Himself said in John 4.
He gives us what we need to produce the Good Fruit.

No, I said nothing about being "condemned" for not "producing fruit" because we don't produce anything. We are the vehicle through which the Holy Spirit produces fruit IN US.

Jesus is much more than the "water of life." The fruit we bear is not produced by us, nor are we the source of it. The fruit is the Holy Spirit's.....we are His workmanship. Therefore, we CANNOT BOAST in anything.

Just because I hold you to account for what you said you would do, does NOT mean I don't understand the scriptures you quoted, but it is very apparent that you post was designed to deflect away from answering the verses that support why I quoted them. You know as well as I do what they indicate and you seem hell bent on avoiding the issue.
You seem to think scriptures contradict one another or at least you posted them in such an attempt as to cause equivocation.

​

No, I'm not "hell bent" on anything. If you can't handle my comments, you are perfectly free to ignore them. I merely pointed out that we are not the SOURCE of any good thing. We are not to boast about any fruit...which is the Spirit's IN US.

Apparently, based on your response afterwards, you either don't know what they are saying or you don't agree and try to present something that will support what you think the truth is, instead of seeing what the Word of God says. I really can't be bothered playing games like this Glory and quite frankly thought better of you. Guess I was wrong.

I see quite well what the Word is saying and it is not saying we are the source of anything. The tree only bears the fruit, it does not produce it....nor is the tree the source. It seems like that's a very simple concept, and I do wonder why you find it so hard to understand what I have posted.

The very reason we are not to BOAST is because we are HIS WORKMANSHIP. When you say "We produce the fruit," you are boasting of what the Holy Spirit does IN US.

Eph. 2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




Here's my LAST EFFORT trying to get you to understand what I have said since you first mentioned our being the SOURCE of FRUIT OR GOOD WORKS. It's a matter of REST, Stan, not striving to produce anything.


Those who believe have entered into REST....have ceased from their own EFFORTS. That means we no longer strive to produce works of righteousness....we REST and allow HIM to produce His fruits of righteousness IN US.

Heb. 4:10
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You have pegged Grosnick Marowbe right with that estimate.

Very clever! Not very original but, then again, we are, talking
about you! You're not exactly the most knowledgeable person
residing on planet earth!

 

[glorydaz]

Lets face it, you wouldn't have accepted the answers either way
they were presented! You're just one of those type fellas!

I used to have an uncle just like that. It's a matter of who gets credit for any good a believer does. God or the believer. To me, it's pretty clear.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I used to have an uncle just like that. It's a matter of who gets credit for any good a believer does. God or the believer. To me, it's pretty clear.

That it is.

 

[godrulz]

Conversion is turning from unbelief to belief.
Salvation is being saved from wrath.

This is your subjective, arbitrary view, not a precise theological one.

 

[godrulz]

Not if they were actually saved. Because it is impossible to sacrifice Christ again, He finished it all on the cross, and the believer is sealed by the Spirit and not one will be snatched from His hand, including "our own" attempts to snatch ourselves back.

It is impossible to become unborn.

Spiritual rebirth is analogous to, not identical with, physical birth.

You are also confusing justification and perseverance/glorification.