genuineoriginal
New member
A literal historical-grammatical approach leads to Pre-Millenial Post-Tribulationism.
Allegorization leads to dispensational pre-tribulationalism.
toldailytopic: Is there a difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
A literal historical-grammatical approach leads to Pre-Millenial Post-Tribulationism.
Allegorization leads to dispensational pre-tribulationalism.
Two different comings:
- Coming in the clouds
- Second Coming [actual touchdown on Earth]
Agree to disagree...:argue:
genuineoriginal
New member
Please show scriptures that prove that Jesus changes His mind during the parousia and never actually arrives.
I Thess. 4; I Cor. 15 vs Mt. 24-25.
genuineoriginal
New member
All of those verses are about a single parousia, not two different events
So says you....a chronology requires looking at all verses, not just 3 verses.
genuineoriginal
New member
Exactly.
The verses only support one second coming.
A normative literal interpretation of the text shows that these two verses, written by the same author in the same letter, are talking about the same event.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. |
1 Thessalonians 4:15 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. |
The same author clarified who the saints were that come with Jesus in the second letter to the same audience.
2 Thessalonians 1:7 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, |
Last edited:
Not at all what I said.
There are places where Jesus, Paul, John, etc. shift issues in the same book or context.
genuineoriginal
New member
1 Thessalonians 4:15 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [παρουσία parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. |
παρουσία parousia from πάρειμι pareimi
παρουσία parousia
___1) presence
___2) the coming, arrival, advent
______a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
πάρειμι pareimi
___1) to be by, be at hand, to have arrived, to be present
___2) to be ready, in store, at command
παρουσία parousia
___1) presence
___2) the coming, arrival, advent
______a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
πάρειμι pareimi
___1) to be by, be at hand, to have arrived, to be present
___2) to be ready, in store, at command
genuineoriginal
New member
The meaning is clear.
Matthew 16:27 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. |
This is not the only truth given to formulate a complete eschatology/chronology. This verse does not contradict pre-trib nor prove post-trib.
You argue like the anti-trinitarians who think quoting a verse about one God or showing the Father is not the Son somehow refutes it (it does not, but it does refute Oneness, another heresy). Quoting verses about the visible return of Christ (post-trib) WITH the Church does not refute ones that support the invisible return of Christ FOR the Church 7 years earlier.
genuineoriginal
New member
Once again, you use allegorization of scripture to avoid recognizing the literal text.
You think Jesus coming with His angels means Jesus coming with His church.
Try a literal historical-grammatical interpretation instead of eisegesis.
I do interpret literally and that is why I am not amill. I reject the allegorical approach, but not figurative language when the context demands it.
Jesus coming with angels does not preclude saints also being with Him.
Does the church not need to be with Christ for it to come back with Him?
That alone should show that the rapture and second coming are 2 different events.
genuineoriginal
New member
There are verses that say we meet Him in the air when He comes.
There are no verses that say He leaves when we join Him in the air.
genuineoriginal
New member
Jesus does not need to come, then leave, then come again at the second coming as is taught about the rapture.
Jesus comes and the church meets Him in the air as He comes (as written).
I think they would say you go up and down in a moment. This does not leave room for things like the Bema Seat of Christ. It also misunderstands the nature of the Church, Tribulation, Second Coming (two phases), etc.