toldailytopic: Is attending church necessary for salvation?

[unknown]

From the quote that you provided, Moses De Leon did not "stumble" across it. It was give to him by the prophet Elijah, which makes it suspect - Elijah died 1000s of years ago and if he was talking to DeLeon it is consider necromacy - which we know God hates. The esoteric religions all base their "origins" on a secretive method of understand via "revelations". In Judaism, only men study kabbalah and only after they turn 40 because the study of kabbalah is so intense and hard to understand.



I did not say that kabbalah dates back only to the 1400s. I said it was not complied, made a religion, the zohar was not written until the 1300s. Up until then there are strands of it, but basically, the Zohar, is the "Holy Book" of kabbalah and without it there is no kabbalah to actually adhere to.

I am not sure how Abraham fits into it other than what the Zohar states, which is not accurate. Again, all information therein comes from a source that is speculative [Elijah appearing] at best. There is no written proof before then. Oral tradition is not reliable. Ever play the telephone game? :chuckle:



I looked up Torah in the BDB [Brown Driver Briggs]. The root word of Torah is yara, not ohr.

H8451
תּרה / תּורה
tôrâh
BDB Definition:
1) law, direction, instruction
1a) instruction, direction (human or divine)
1a1) body of prophetic teaching
1a2) instruction in Messianic age
1a3) body of priestly direction or instruction
1a4) body of legal directives
1b) law
1b1) law of the burnt offering
1b2) of special law, codes of law
1c) custom, manner
1d) the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H3384


H3384
ירא / ירה
yârâh / yârâ'
BDB Definition:
1) to throw, shoot, cast, pour
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to throw, cast
1a2) to cast, lay, set
1a3) to shoot arrows
1a4) to throw water, rain
1b) (Niphal) to be shot
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to throw, cast
1c2) to shoot
1c3) to point out, show
1c4) to direct, teach, instruct
1c5) to throw water, rain
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root




I have been researching kabbalah for over 10 years. The Bible has nothing to with kabbalah, and here is why. kabbalah uses the shekinah which is the feminine presence of God. God is not a she kabbalah also defines the Holy Spirit as the "Mother Spirit" - again, no where in the Bible is the Holy Spirit referred to as a "she". So these concepts, not shown in the Hebrew Scriptures, were added at some point. They are not part of the OT as far back as we have a record for.

kabbalah is mysticism, magic and part of the occult - they are the base of the Golden Dawn, illuminati, Rosicrucian, Knights Templar, Free-Masonry, Mormanism, and other such religions which are not accepted as being Biblical, and which are not exactly real high on God's list - it's actually a big no-no as far as He is concerned

if you have been studying Kabbalah, it was a "mystical" form (a corruption), because of what you have written, that much is obvious. How one can do that for 10 years is beyond me.

in that case, there is nothing more to say, you still (after 10 years) don't know what real Kabbalah is about.

 

[Traditio]

Yes. That's where Jesus is. You see, "on the night He was betrayed, He took bread..."

 

[unknown]

RC,
Back to the topic,
Let's forget about Kabbalah. I can certainly understand why you object to it. Sorry I brought it up, I was only trying to clarify why "Love your neighbor as yourself" is important.

Do you still think you can attain "salvation" alone? Or do agree with "Love your neighbor as yourself"?

 

[unknown]

I think that at the end of it all, we are to be one body. no?

 

[chrysostom]

Do you still think you can attain "salvation" alone? Or do agree with "Love your neighbor as yourself"?

no
you need help to love your neighbor
but
you have to ask for it

 

[unknown]

no
you need help to love your neighbor
but
you have to ask for it

yes!

you also need neighbors to love.

 

[red cardinal]

if you have been studying Kabbalah, it was a "mystical" form (a corruption), because of what you have written, that much is obvious. How one can do that for 10 years is beyond me.

in that case, there is nothing more to say, you still (after 10 years) don't know what real Kabbalah is about.

I did not say I was studying kabbalah. I said, I was researching it.

What exactly did I say that you disagree with in regards to kabbalah?

 

[red cardinal]

RC,
Back to the topic,
Let's forget about Kabbalah. I can certainly understand why you object to it. Sorry I brought it up, I was only trying to clarify why "Love your neighbor as yourself" is important.

Do you still think you can attain "salvation" alone? Or do agree with "Love your neighbor as yourself"?

Loving your neighbor is not only important, it is critical - in that is shows that one is "Godly". It is not a salvic issue. Salvation itself is belief on Jesus Christ as the Son of God who died for our sins and reconciled us to God. Are you Jewish - just curious?

 

[JoeyArnold]

If you are saved, then why won't you attend church?

 

[chrysostom]

if you are saved, why would you need to?

 

[red cardinal]

if you are saved, why would you need to?

ditto that [to Joey]

 

[godrulz]

if you are saved, why would you need to?

If you are married, why hang out with your wife and kids?

 

[unknown]

Loving your neighbor is not only important, it is critical - in that is shows that one is "Godly". It is not a salvic issue. Salvation itself is belief on Jesus Christ as the Son of God who died for our sins and reconciled us to God. Are you Jewish - just curious?

And here is where I disagree with many, I say, were are not "saved" until we have love for our fellow man.

Consider this:

1. Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, body, and soul.

2. Love your neighbor as your self.

If the second is not done, how can the first be done? We do not complete the first until we do the second. We don't love God if we don't love our neighbor. (remember the scripture, In as much as you do to the least of these......)


Pentecost and Unity are 2 words I used in my first post in this thread.

How can these be accomplished alone?

Do you know when the "church" was born? When the 120 disciples were in one accord. They were not "saved" before they were in one accord. Only when then came into that accord were they saved.

This is the problem I have with modern "Christianity", they sow division and not accord.

In researching Pentecost, I found that it is also "Shavuot" AKA "Festival of Harvests" AKA "The day Torah was received on MT Sinai" AKA "The 50th day of counting the Omar". The writers of the NT have given it the Greek name "Pentecost" to hide this fact. They were starting their own religion and hiding as much of the old as they could get away with. If one names a thing something other than what it is he lies.


EDIT:

I think that at the end of it all, we are to be one body. no?

Are we to be members of a body or not?

 

[red cardinal]

And here is where I disagree with many, I say, were are not "saved" until we have love for our fellow man.

Consider this:

1. Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, body, and soul.

2. Love your neighbor as your self.

If the second is not done, how can the first be done? We do not complete the first until we do the second. We don't love God if we don't love our neighbor. (remember the scripture, In as much as you do to the least of these......)

How about the thief on the cross? Saved or unsaved?

Pentecost and Unity are 2 words I used in my first post in this thread.

How can these be accomplished alone?

Do you know when the "church" was born? When the 120 disciples were in one accord. They were not "saved" before they were in one accord. Only when then came into that accord were they saved.

What do these texts mean to you:

Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
Act 7:38 This is he [ Jesus], that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

In researching Pentecost, I found that it is also "Shavuot" AKA "Festival of Harvests" AKA "The day Torah was received on MT Sinai" AKA "The 50th day of counting the Omar". The writers of the NT have given it the Greek name "Pentecost" to hide this fact. They were starting their own religion and hiding as much of the old as they could get away with. If one names a thing something other than what it is he lies.

Hmmm - The Day of Pentecost means the 50th day.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

In other words, it was the 50th day after the wave offering. "counting the omar" is just counting the days according to Lev 23.

Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Lev 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

Acts 2:1 is referring to the celebration of Pentecost or the 50th day. Thousands of Jews were in Jerusalem because it was one of the 3 required Feasts for all Jewish males.

I am a bit curious as to your understanding of the "Giving of Torah", because that was never mentioned in the Bible having anything to do with Pentecost. Pentecost, as observed under the old covenant, was a shadow of what was to come and was completed/fulfilled with the Holy Spirit descending "upon"and filling them or empowering them to witness the Gospel the disciples. They had already been filled with the Holy Spirit for salvation when Jesus came to them in the upper room [see John 20 verse posted above].

The "giving of the Torah" in association with Pentecost is a Rabbinic/Talmudic concept, not a Biblical one.

EDIT:


Are we to be members of a body or not?

Members of the body of Christ is not physical unity specifically, although that is one way of fellowship. Actually we are one in Christ spiritually. We are "in fellowship" with Christians around the world spiritually. And if one is in contact with others in different places studying and discussing and "fellowshipping" whether that be on the net, on the phone, having coffee, or whatever - they are one spiritually as well - just an added dimension. [Whereever 2 or 3 are gathered in my Name, I am there] Do you agree?

I guess I find it impossible to agree that just because people do not attend or belong to a church means they have somehow slipped into a pit spiritually or are unsaved. Many, many people cannot attend church due to physical, mental, and social restraints. It seems like a rather awkward position to place these people in some kind of "tank" of spiritual poison because they are not "social" and physically involved in "a" church.:mmph:

 

[unknown]

How about the thief on the cross? Saved or unsaved?

I see you skip the main part of my text by asking a question about a thief.

Why? Nothing to say there at all? Then I must be correct or you should refute it.

RE: Pentecost

Are you blind?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecost

Pentecost (Ancient Greek: Πεντηκοστή [ἡμέρα], Pentēkostē [hēmera], "the Fiftieth [day]") is one of the prominent feasts in the Christian liturgical year commemorating the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the disciples of Christ after the Resurrection.[1] The feast is also called Whitsunday especially in the United Kingdom. Pentecost is celebrated seven weeks (50 days) after Easter Sunday, hence its name.[2] Pentecost falls on the tenth day after Ascension Thursday.

Pentecost is historically and symbolically related to the Jewish harvest festival of Shavuot, which commemorates God giving the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai fifty days after the Exodus. Among Christians, Pentecost commemorates the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles and other followers of Jesus as described in the New Testament Acts of the Apostles 2:1-31.[3] For this reason, Pentecost is sometimes described as the "Birthday of the Church".

There is plenty of info on the net about this, do you own search if you care.


the rest of your post I'm ignoring but at least I'm not asking about something else and pretending that my question is an answer.

You're tactics remind me of the Atheists, (can't address the point so talk about something else). OK, bye.

EDIT:

I forgot this,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavuot

Shavuot (help·info) (or Shavuos (help·info), in Ashkenazi usage; Shavuʿoth in Classical and Mizrahi Hebrew Hebrew: שבועות‎, lit. "Weeks") is a Jewish holiday that occurs on the sixth day of the Hebrew month of Sivan (late May or early June). Shavuot commemorates the anniversary of the day God gave the Torah to the entire Israelite nation assembled at Mount Sinai, although the association between the giving of the Torah (Matan Torah) and Shavuot is not explicit in the Biblical text. The holiday is one of the Shalosh Regalim, the three Biblical pilgrimage festivals. It marks the conclusion of the Counting of the Omer.
The date of Shavuot is directly linked to that of Passover. The Torah mandates the seven-week Counting of the Omer, beginning on the second day of Passover and immediately followed by Shavuot. This counting of days and weeks is understood to express anticipation and desire for the Giving of the Torah. On Passover, the Jewish people were freed from their enslavement to Pharaoh; on Shavuot they were given the Torah and became a nation committed to serving God.
In the Bible, Shavuot is called the Festival of Weeks (Hebrew: חג השבועות, Ḥag ha-Shavuot, Exodus 34:22, Deuteronomy 16:10); Festival of Reaping (Hebrew: חג הקציר, Ḥag ha-Katsir, Exodus 23:16), and Day of the First Fruits (Hebrew יום הבכורים, Yom ha-Bikkurim, Numbers 28:26). The Mishnah and Talmud refer to Shavuot as Atzeret (Hebrew: עצרת, a solemn assembly), as it provides closure for the festival activities during and following the holiday of Passover. Since Shavuot occurs 50 days after Passover, Hellenistic Jews gave it the name Pentecost (πεντηκοστή, "fiftieth day").

 

[red cardinal]

I see you skip the main part of my text by asking a question about a thief.

Why? Nothing to say there at all? Then I must be correct or you should refute it.

The thief on the cross next to Jesus did not love his neighbor, yet he was saved, per Jesus. So if he was not in "community" being saved through loving others as you have posited, then was Jesus in error?

RE: Pentecost

Are you blind?

There is plenty of info on the net about this, do you own search if you care.

The information on the net is correct - this is what Jews believe, but it's not in the Bible.

The NT was written in Greek, so to use a Greek word, which is termed "50 days" or Pentecost [referring to the feast that the Jews kept and why they came to Jerusalem] is just terminology, not theology You were aware that the Jews of the first century spoke Greek?

 

[csuguy]

No, you don't have to attend church services regularly to be saved. However, a good church IS vital for spiritual growth and well being. Even if you don't attend one, if you are dedicated to Christ's teachings and commands then you will end up forming one. Churches are an inevitable result of Christ's teachings and commands put into practice. Though, of course, the church can be informal and at people's houses and such.

Not going to the established church services may serve you better than attending them. What good does it do you to attend a dead church? Perhaps you can help to revive it - but usually revivals need to come from without of the establishment rather than within.

 

[unknown]

The thief on the cross next to Jesus did not love his neighbor, yet he was saved, per Jesus. So if he was not in "community" being saved through loving others as you have posited, then was Jesus in error?

Still with your question about the thief eh? There are 2 accounts of that event.........


Matthew's account :

Matthew 27:39-44 39And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, 40And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. 41Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, 42He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. 43He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. 44The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Luke's account

Luke 23:39-44 39And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. 44And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

First, I will say the NT is not a reliable source as evidenced here. Too many people have doctored it too many times.

Both thieves in Matthews account mocked Jesus and perished, In Luke's Account the difference is that one thief rebuked the other for his harsh words. This was the action that saved him. You make salvation sound like a crap shoot. Do you not believe God is Just? The second thief in Luke's account took no action (other than to mock) and was not saved. Further, we are never told if the thief that was saved actually believed in Jesus and had faith or not.

I understand your "belief is all I need" theology. You are not alone, many are convinced if they believe in the name of Jesus they will be saved. Jesus is an Hispanic name, it came from JeZues Krysto. I say there is more to it than you believe.

The information on the net is correct - this is what Jews believe, but it's not in the Bible.

The NT was written in Greek, so to use a Greek word, which is termed "50 days" or Pentecost [referring to the feast that the Jews kept and why they came to Jerusalem] is just terminology, not theology You were aware that the Jews of the first century spoke Greek?

yes I already gave you links to that info. Do you not realize that the disciples were Jews and that Shavuot was established long before their time? The article on Shavuot says it is not explicit in the bible, no surprise there. You actually have to think about some things. (unless, that goes against your religion).


This is where I get off. you ignored my question. You do not deserve my time. You have as much free will as the rest of us, believe whatever you like.