toldailytopic: Christian nation. Did America's founding fathers intend for the USA to

[bybee]

Well

Well

I can stay in America, because I pay my taxes, and I have a right to my own opinion. Thats what the founding fathers wanted.

So, maybe you should leave, since your comment falls in line with what a dictator would say.

You might reread my post. I did not say you "should" leave. I said you "could" leave, since you find America so distasteful. You are blessed to have a "right to your own opinion" and so am I. bybee

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

You might reread my post. I did not say you "should" leave. I said you "could" leave, since you find America so distasteful. You are blessed to have a "right to your own opinion" and so am I. bybee

I read your comment, and it's undertone said, "why don't you leave then."

You basically said "love it, or shut your mouth and leave"

I can read between the lines, and I suggest you stop writing between the lines if you don't want people to read what you write between them.

You just mumbled the same on this comment, but with a cherry on the top.

What's the phrase that old people use when trying to say someone is being nasty in a nice way :think:.................Oh, yea, "NICE NASTY" lain:

Maybe I'm a bit different than you, but if I think or feel something, i say it just as it is (boy that sure got me a lot of butt whippings growing up). But why be fake?

 

[bybee]

Well

Well

I read your comment, and it's undertone said, "why don't you leave then."

You basically said "love it, or shut your mouth and leave"

I can read between the lines, and I suggest you stop writing between the lines if you don't want people to read what you write between them.

You just mumbled the same on this comment, but with a cherry on the top.

What's the phrase that old people use when trying to say someone is being nasty in a nice way :think:.................Oh, yea, "NICE NASTY" lain:

Maybe I'm a bit different than you, but if I think or feel something, i say it just as it is (boy that sure got me a lot of butt whippings growing up). But why be fake?

Why accuse others of being fake? My gloves have been off with you since you spit your first gout of venom on these pages. Yes, I am an old person. Doesn't Islam teach respect for one's elders? Oh, I forgot! Excuuuuuse me! I'm a woman- not worthy of respect. Oh well, when your world-wide Jihad succeeds you can kill off all of us mouthy Broads! You minescule little nit! bybee

 

[Gurucam]

What principles are these that were Christian specific?

Where do you get the ideal that most of them were Christians? I'd like to see an academic source for that one. Please do!

The guys are telling you in every founding document that America was in no way shape or form founded on Christianity. In fact, some of the stronger founding fathers made it clear what they thought about Christianity.

Article XI.

As the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion of Musslemen--and as the said states never have entered into any war with Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between two countries.

Article XII continues

In case of any dispute arising from a violation of any of the articles of this treaty, no appeal shall be made to arms; nor shall war be declared on any pretext whatever...........................

The 1796 treaty with Tripoli was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.

Doesn't get much clearer than that

Christianity is about following the dream which one hold in one's heart and materializing same on earth. This is how God's kingdom of heaven comes to earth.

:idea: The Gospel for Christians and is also the Gospel of un-circumcision which was rendered onto Paul, we can say that a Christian is a 'child of God' and one who is saved and delivered and under Grace of God and his life style is as follows: A Christian is unconditionally and precisely obedient to urgings of love which arises and are sustained naturally and spontaneously within his heart or spirit for those specific people, things and circumstances in God's creation, even if he has to transgress all prevailing ideals and laws of society, morality and religiosity, including the Ten Commandments. However all the same upholding the laws of the land​

Have you heard about the lucky girl with golden hair in 'Abba'.​

Her mother said that she was dancing even before she could walk and and she began singing before she could talk.

Fact is she has a talent a wonderful thing, because everyone listens when she starts to sing. She is so grateful for that and all she want is to sing it out loud.

She was able to actualize or materialize her Gift of the Spirit on earth because she was simply unconditionally obedient to the urgings of love which was sustained within her heart for same.

:idea: :idea: Isn't the U.S.A. constitution primarily all about doing just this, harmoniously?

How many people come to the U.S.A. seeking to do just this, harmoniously. This is the Christian way of life. The only laws which one must obey in that land, is the judicial laws of the land, which are not set in concrete. Everything else is optional.

Do not ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come Alive and do that. Because what the world needs is More people who have come Alive! ​

To be Alive is to be not "dead within".​

. . . . Jesus said, 'let the dead bury their dead'. Do not be dead (within) you will be ignored by The Lord Jesus Christ.

The U.S.A. constitution is dedicated to those who are [size=+1]Alive.[/SIZE] How Spiritual (unlettered) and Christian is that?

Moses-ian countries and their constitutions are dedicated primarily and foremost to serving ideals and laws of Moses to the letter. This is not for 'the Alive', i.e. not for the 'born again' or spiritually aware. This is for those with veils over their hearts. How Religious (lettered) and Moses-ian is that?

It seems that we must be thankful to God for the U.S.A.
And everyone there who fought to protect and preserve
freedom, liberty and justification for all humans.
These are the most basic Christian ideas. ​

 

[Granite]

You might reread my post. I did not say you "should" leave. I said you "could" leave, since you find America so distasteful. You are blessed to have a "right to your own opinion" and so am I. bybee

Why is it that criticism of America is something you apparently think isn't something we should tolerate?

 

[bybee]

Well

Well

Why is it that criticism of America is something you apparently think isn't something we should tolerate?

Obviously we are tolerating criticism of America. It is one of our precious freedoms. But, I haven't read anywhere that I have to like it? I can be as snotty and supercilious in my defense of America as all of these gnat-brained johny-one-note haters of America are. It is one thing to criticize and another to only find fault and not ever recognize that America actually has some good things going. Personally, I detest war. And I do not trust the politicians who drag us into war. Citizens who voted for Barak Obama thought that he had a message of "No more war!" Well...now what? I have three grandsons, all of whom have been sent to Iraq. bybee

 

[Granite]

Obviously we are tolerating criticism of America. It is one of our precious freedoms. But, I haven't read anywhere that I have to like it? I can be as snotty and supercilious in my defense of America as all of these gnat-brained johny-one-note haters of America are. It is one thing to criticize and another to only find fault and not ever recognize that America actually has some good things going. Personally, I detest war. And I do not trust the politicians who drag us into war. Citizens who voted for Barak Obama thought that he had a message of "No more war!" Well...now what? I have three grandsons, all of whom have been sent to Iraq. bybee

Well I don't see any "hate" of America on this thread, bybee, at least not from Americans. I'm just frustrated by this kneejerk reaction: "Well if you don't like America, leave!" This is a completely ridiculous and counterintuitive response, and it speaks to an attitude that's profoundly un-American.

 

[Gurucam]

-

Please re-read post #104

The craziest things for man is absolute wisdom with God.​

 

[bybee]

Okay Granite! You win!

Okay Granite! You win!

Well I don't see any "hate" of America on this thread, bybee, at least not from Americans. I'm just frustrated by this kneejerk reaction: "Well if you don't like America, leave!" This is a completely ridiculous and counterintuitive response, and it speaks to an attitude that's profoundly un-American.

I am of a generation of Americans whose parents and grandparents lived through the "Great Depression". They planted gardens and fed themselves and each other. They believed they had chosen well in deciding to come to America. They did not criticize the hand that fed them. I grew up grateful and proud to be an American. They attended Town Meetings to discuss and argue for or against those ideas which they held dear. They were good neighbors. Woe to any student who showed disrespect to teachers. My Dad fought in France in WWI. He served as an Air raid Warden during WWII in our neighborhood. This, is, very briefly, my world view. So, if this is "Kneejerk reaction" according to your lights, so be it. I'm not going to change and I am not going to go away. Get used to it or get over it! We could discuss something else? I'm very fond of the Impressionists. peace, bybee

 

[Granite]

I am of a generation of Americans whose parents and grandparents lived through the "Great Depression".

My grandparents lived through it, both my grandfathers fought in the South Pacific.

They did not criticize the hand that fed them.

Didn't you just say they fed themselves?

So, if this is "Kneejerk reaction" according to your lights, so be it. I'm not going to change and I am not going to go away.

Bybee, I'm not asking you to change or go away (unlike your own dismissal to some people who disagree with you). I'm asking you to appreciate what you're doing: demanding that people who don't agree with you shut up and even leave their country. There's nothing unpatriotic about criticizing your country, and to expect those who do to either leave or shut up is antithetical to what this country supposedly stands for.

 

[bybee]

Apparently

Apparently

My grandparents lived through it, both my grandfathers fought in the South Pacific.



Didn't you just say they fed themselves?



Bybee, I'm not asking you to change or go away (unlike your own dismissal to some people who disagree with you). I'm asking you to appreciate what you're doing: demanding that people who don't agree with you shut up and even leave their country. There's nothing unpatriotic about criticizing your country, and to expect those who do to either leave or shut up is antithetical to what this country supposedly stands for.

Apparently you are reading things into my posts which I don't believe are there. I have not told anyone to leave. And I have not told anyone to "Shut up!". I defend freedom of speech. What bothers me is those people who list long litanies of America's wrongdoing as though we are the only country who errs, YET, they wish to live here and enjoy all that America's big heart has to give. When a grievance is aired it deserves discussion from all sides. I shall most assuredly continue to air my thoughts. Also, I don't believe I said that rabid criticism necessarily implies a lack of Patriotism. I'm thinking! I'm thinking! bybee

 

[Ps82]

I believe that the majority of our founders were Christians and were certainly thinking about protecting that particular faith as well as the religious freedoms of peaceful tolerant future cultures, who may want to join our free society. Our founding fathers did not want a king or a dictator or a religious zealot to ever take over our government and tell everyone that they had to become a follower of Christ or a deity of their choice.

That being said - I'm sure that they did not exclude the Judeao-Christian LORD God from being acknowledged publicly in their day or prohibit acknowledging HIM by our future elected leaders.

They certainly did not mean to make things possible for god-less people to use their historic writings in order to attack a belief in a higher power ... or to prohibit the public practice of the Christian faith.

As long as our citizens elect leaders, who profess to be Christians, I guess our nation is willing to be a Christian nation. Until the time ever comes where our citizens choose to elect Islamic or other faith leaders, then our Christian foundations are certainly historically and politically protected.

I'm glad that we are not known as a nation that persecutes people for their religious beliefs; however, I do find, that in these days, our tolerance is considered by some people as a weakness.

 

[dim1]

No, since they believed in freedom of religion, not freedom to practice just Christianity. Regardless of any technicalities in any documents, it says in plain, interpretive, language we are free to practice our religions.

 

[Granite]

Apparently you are reading things into my posts which I don't believe are there. I have not told anyone to leave. And I have not told anyone to "Shut up!". I defend freedom of speech. What bothers me is those people who list long litanies of America's wrongdoing as though we are the only country who errs, YET, they wish to live here and enjoy all that America's big heart has to give. When a grievance is aired it deserves discussion from all sides. I shall most assuredly continue to air my thoughts. Also, I don't believe I said that rabid criticism necessarily implies a lack of Patriotism. I'm thinking! I'm thinking! bybee

I know you are. It just seems that some people remain hyper sensitive to any criticism of this country, which pretty much handicaps the discussion from the outset.

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

Why accuse others of being fake? My gloves have been off with you since you spit your first gout of venom on these pages. Yes, I am an old person. Doesn't Islam teach respect for one's elders? Oh, I forgot! Excuuuuuse me! I'm a woman- not worthy of respect. Oh well, when your world-wide Jihad succeeds you can kill off all of us mouthy Broads! You minescule little nit! bybee

Because you were being fake, and you should have said it like you meant it, and you are right that you have been an old, disrespectful elderly, stick wilding woman since you have first came into contact with me. So I totally agree with you there, so you should have continued your hateful streak instead of muffling it.

You are my elder, and you should present yourself with more respect and integrity.

If Muslims were taught to disrespect their women, then you would experience that from the over 10 million American Muslims doing this to there wives. Should I suggest that Christianity teaches to oppress women since some Christians beat and treat their wives wrong? Of course not, and I would be foolish to claim such a thing, especially if I had no knowledge of the religion and it's teaching, like you don't with Islam.

If jihad meant holy war and it's aim was to kill all who think different than Muslims, then you would see some throat slitting and killing over here in America.

I am a Muslim and I have never killed or wanted to kill anyone (well I did think about killing that Christian guy who my sister was dating, when I heard he hit her), nor have I ever been told by the Quran to disrespect or oppress women. Quran teaches equality and respect between the two, and to oppress women would be to disobey God.

You should be old enough to assess the facts and gather your own responsible opinion instead of acting like some young child who takes what he hears and reads and then runs with it.

You are old, and that means you should know better than to say foolish things.

I do not see any difference between an old fool, or a young fool, at the end of the day, you just have two fools; and neither helps to bring people together.

 

[bybee]

Well

Well

Because you were being fake, and you should have said it like you meant it, and you are right that you have been an old, disrespectful elderly, stick wilding woman since you have first came into contact with me. So I totally agree with you there, so you should have continued your hateful streak instead of muffling it.

You are my elder, and you should present yourself with more respect and integrity.

If Muslims were taught to disrespect their women, then you would experience that from the over 10 million American Muslims doing this to there wives. Should I suggest that Christianity teaches to oppress women since some Christians beat and treat their wives wrong? Of course not, and I would be foolish to claim such a thing, especially if I had no knowledge of the religion and it's teaching, like you don't with Islam.

If jihad meant holy war and it's aim was to kill all who think different than Muslims, then you would see some throat slitting and killing over here in America.

I am a Muslim and I have never killed or wanted to kill anyone (well I did think about killing that Christian guy who my sister was dating, when I heard he hit her), nor have I ever been told by the Quran to disrespect or oppress women. Quran teaches equality and respect between the two, and to oppress women would be to disobey God.

You should be old enough to assess the facts and gather your own responsible opinion instead of acting like some young child who takes what he hears and reads and then runs with it.

You are old, and that means you should know better than to say foolish things.

I do not see any difference between an old fool, or a young fool, at the end of the day, you just have two fools; and neither helps to bring people together.

It is not good to "should" people. What is it with you Moslems anyway. You sneer when ever a Christian tries to say something nice. You pur like a cat when you have goaded people to retaliate in kind. Actually, this kind of debate is depressing. You win. I'm old and don't want to play anymore. A Jihad is war against the infidel or an internal war against one's own baser thoughts. People cannot be brought together when one side can only find fault and is not ever responsible for it's own sins. bybee

 

[Nick M]

If Muslims were taught to disrespect their women, then you would experience that from the over 10 million American Muslims doing this to there wives.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/02/17/2009-02-17_muslim_tv_mogul_muzzammil_hassans_allege.html

A teacher of family law and Islam at the University at Buffalo Law School, Shahram said that “fanatical” Muslims believe “honor killing” is justified for bringing dishonor on a family.

They are only alive because it isn't legal to murder your wife.

And from another article on Islam....

"The fierce and gruesome nature of this murder signals it's an honor killing," said Dr. Phyllis Chesler, an author and professor of psychology at the Richmond College of the City University of New York. "What she did was worthy of capital punishment in his eyes."

 

[Gurucam]

First, it's an obvious war on Islam. Second, seeing all the random soldiers who comeback crying saying it's a shame what they are over there doing, and it's pure genocide. I have seen way too many of these people on corners with signs and on their videos explaining the genocide that is happening. Funny how they don't get any airtime to tell their story on any of the major news networks-it's an obvious hush them up attempt. I will take their word for it, verses anyone on here. Third, what does it matter Muslims are in the Army helping kill them? They are there because they get a check like everyone else, that's them running around acting like kuffars killing their own. The Iraqi army has been dismantled, and those people didn't want them there and they definitely don't want them there now. We had no right to invade anyway. Korea shoots a test missile off whenever they get ready, go tackle them. Iran just wants to have their own nuclear reactor, but they hassle them, and let Korea shoot off and have what they want.

It's a war on Islam, plan and simple, just like the media war on Islam, showing all negative stuff. When is the last time the media broadcast stories of the Messianic Jews being terrorized by the other Jews in Israel? As I remember, there are car bombings, church burnings and banning return to Israel for those Jews who have accepted Christianity.


Some of those guys come back just messed up about the things they were told to do: Rolling around with spare weapons so they can put it on the person they shoot if they didn't have any weapons etc.

It's clear what is going on over there.

Find any WMD's over there yet? That was just an excuse to go in there and do what they wanted. North Korea definitely has some mean weapons and test them whenever they want, so if America was so worried, go get the ones who tell you, "we have them, so what, and we are shooting one off for a test tomorrow. But they are making a big fuse about Iran wanting a nuclear reactor.

Thats the last thing I'm saying about that issue.

Life is life, and and there has never been any just cause to go in there an do what they have done. All those lives lost and orphan kids.

When those kids grow up, they will remember, and they will be angry, just like the Afgan movement after the US left them hanging for death after they had got the use they wanted out of them.

Call it cultural bias, ax grinding, or whatever you want. YES, IM GRINDING AN AXE HARD RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE IT'S PURE GENOCIDE, AND PEOPLE JUST SIT AND TALK TRASH LIKE THEY DESERVE TO BE GETTING MURDERED.

OF COURSE THEY ARE OVER THERE TRYING TO GIVE SOLDIERS, BECAUSE THEY WANT THEM GONE, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Save your reply comments to this message, because I will not be replying to anything trying to justify the actions, or say it was Muslims fault that the US is killing all those people.

In your opinion, how does justice work?

Seems quite possible that the Jews who persecuted Jesus Christ and aided his crucifixion may have suffered the Holocaust (a real big pay back), under grace of God, because Jesus was the son of God.

Although it may appear that man or a man was responsible, and such a man will be held accountable, is it not possible that, that event was in fact justice under divine decree, for people who esteem 'thou shall not kill'?

With respect to Muslims, although they may be suffering under action by men, is it not also possible that they may simply be receiving justice under 'an eye for an eye' for converting non-Muslims at the point of the sword and killing and raping others who refused to be converted? One who live by the sword must, it seems, also die by the sword.

Is it not possible that God may simply be looking the other way with respect to these events simply to balance out justice?

I am just supposing.

However please tell me how will God dispense justice, under 'an eye for an eye' among those who esteem the Ten Commandments? When they have violated same?

Also if one's doctrines are correct and one's actions correct. How is it possible for one's God to fail one? If a people were in and are in righteousness with God, how is possible for their God to let supposed bad things befall them? Let us face the fact that if one is in righteousness with God how can the devil or negativity touch one? If God is for one who can be against one? If therefore killing imbeciles, any which way, was righteous why would such people be suffering punishment from their own and others as well?

The only explanation seems to be that those who receive these supposedly bad things were not in righteousness with God. Their actions were not in accordance with Truth or the wisdom of God.

Seems that in any religion or spiritual tradition, if one's ideas, beliefs and interests are in accordance with the will of God and one obey these (execute them) unconditionally, then, it is literally impossible for one to suffer injustice at the hands of any man or beast or any force or other thing.

When the Muslims invaded non-Muslim countries and converted their citizens to Islam at the point of the sword and killed and rape those who did not convert, did these Muslims consider that they were advantaging these people? Did they consider that if their actions were not informed (by God) they would have to be at the receiving end of the very actions which they perpetrated?

Seems that there is no need to whine and cry now, seem that one must take one's licks like a man, trusting in and believing in, the same God who one claimed justify one's past actions. Where is one's God now, one should ask?

Indeed you who served God so well by killing imbeciles? Where is He now, why is He not protecting Muslims?

Also it seems that all is fair in love and war. Indeed isn't this a Muslim ideal? Is this true only when Muslims are the dispenser of punishment and not the receiver?

I am just supposing.

Isn't it true that one sect of Muslims see other sects of Muslims as imbeciles and worthy of death, any which way? They certianly fight and persecute each other.

In the end, even if Muslims are left alone, who will be left stand in the Muslim world? Only the most violent and ruthless. And indeed only a few can be left standing, after every one has fought everyone else with an opposing idea of Islam, any which way, to the end.

Also, there is absolutely no guarantee that they, the few who are left standing, will be the most informed about Islam. The only guarantee seems to be that they will be the most violent and ruthless. And what a world will be theirs. And it seems that the rest of the world will still allow them, these dwindled few, to keep their violent life style and live in their country. However it seems that they are not likely to survive for long even among themselves.

Supposing. . . . .

 

[serpentdove]

founding fathers

George Washington: "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and citizens."



"[Washington] said anyone who tries to remove religion and morality from public life, I don't even let them call themselves a patriot because they are trying to destroy the country...

...We are responsible to our posterity…We are the stewards of the country and we have to remember that we have a responsibility to preserve the foundations and they are religion and morality (Historian David Barton)."

Barton is the Founder and President of Wallbuilders, a national pro-family organization that presents America's forgotten history and heroes.

Is America a Christian Nation? (MP3 right click and 'save target as' to download) David Barton guest speaker for Charles Stanley In Touch Ministries

The Bible in American History--A Discussion (MP3 right click and 'save target as' to download) Charles Stanley and Historian David Barton

 

[Granite]

George Washington: "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and citizens."



"[Washington] said anyone who tries to remove religion and morality from public life, I don't even let them call themselves a patriot because they are trying to destroy the country...

...We are responsible to our posterity…We are the stewards of the country and we have to remember that we have a responsibility to preserve the foundations and they are religion and morality (Historian David Barton)."

Barton is the Founder and President of Wallbuilders, a national pro-family organization that presents America's forgotten history and heroes.

Is America a Christian Nation? (MP3 right click and 'save target as' to download) David Barton guest speaker for Charles Stanley In Touch Ministries

The Bible in American History--A Discussion (MP3 right click and 'save target as' to download) Charles Stanley and Historian David Barton

Barton's a revisionist more brazen in his dishonesty than most. If all you want to do is indulge in a quote war, you can glance at my signature for a taste of what some founders really thought.