ECT Time & Anthropomorphism with GOD

[glorydaz]

According to your ideas the LORD disposes some to receive eternal life but not all.

Why not all?

Does He play favorites?

No, I didn't say the Lord disposes anyone to anything.

I'm saying there are those who are more disposed to hear the words of life.

Don't you find that to be true when preaching the Gospel?


I'm thinking you see the word "ordained," and assume it was directly ordained by God. I don't.

I see it as those who hear the Gospel...just like this verse which speaks of the "commandment", which was "ordained to life". It's the means by which one comes to gain eternal life.

Romans 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, I didn't say the Lord disposes anyone to anything.

Is the following translation one which you think is correct?:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were disposed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

What meaning to you put on the word "disposed" as it is used in this verse?

Thanks!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I notice that you always go back to Boettner or someone else to quote instead of the bible to describe this idea of God being outside of time. And they don't seem to be able to present scripture for their assertions either.

You see what you want to see because I have in fact quoted Scriptures which I think demonstrate that the LORD exists outside of time.

 

[glorydaz]

Is the following translation one which you think is correct?:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were disposed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

What meaning to you put on the word "disposed" as it is used in this verse?

Thanks!

I can't separate that one verse from it's context...no matter the version. Hearing the Gospel...the word of life disposed them to believe, just as hearing the Gospel is meant to do. The Jews put if from them, and the Gentiles embraced it.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.​

As many as were disposed to hear the word of life believed.

We see that "ordaining" here...where the word of God..."effectually worketh" in them when they "receive" the word.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.​

The Gospel is the power of God UNTO salvation. I believe that is the "ordaining" spoken of here.

 

[musterion]

If the Calvinists are right, those "ordained" believed the Gospel because they'd first been regenerated by individual election which allowed them (and only them) to believe it -- so they were already saved because they were already regenerated. That does not explain the Jews at the very same place who were blamed for refusing it...they didn't really refuse it, they just weren't elected to believe it, so they couldn't. So why were they blamed? It's a mystery!

The other view is that they appointed themselves as willing to believe the Gospel when they heard it, unlike the Jews at the same time who refused to, since as Glory points out, the message itself is the power of God unto salvation. They heard it and believed it. The Jews did not. All there is to it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I can't separate that one verse from it's context...no matter the version.

I am not asking you to separate the verse from its context. But I would like to know the meaning that you place on the word "disposed" as it is used in the following translation which you think is correct:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were disposed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

Besides that, what do you think is the meaning of the words "sanctification of the Spirit" in the following verse?:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:1-2).​

Also, do you think that those words mean the same thing in the following verse?:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

Thanks!

 

[musterion]

Also, do you think that those words mean the same thing in the following verse?:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
​

Thanks!

If I may, Ivan Burgener once pointed out in a study that the word chosen there is not the usual eklektos but aireomai, which can mean more along the lines of to take to oneself. In the context of the chapter (deliverance from their persecution), it makes more sense not having anything to do with the Thesalonians' soul salvation, but their eventual salvation from persecution, possibly by the Rapture.

 

[Danoh]

If I may, Ivan Burgener once pointed out in a study that the word chosen there is not the usual eklektos but aireomai, which can mean more along the lines of to take to oneself. In the context of the chapter (deliverance from their persecution), it makes more sense not having anything to do with the Thesalonians' soul salvation, but their eventual salvation from persecution, possibly by the Rapture.

The deliverance is from the wrath to come - Paul is contrasting between those who will not be saved or "delivered from the wrath to come" with those who will be delivered from it.

Each based on their having chosen either to receive the truth, or to reject it.

The Thessalonians' "beginning"?

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

In contrast to...

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Thus, the intended sense of this - the very next passages...

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

He is REMINDING them that they were delivered from said wrath to come from the very beginning in which they first believed.

That is the very issue he began the chapter with...

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Acts 17: 11, 12.

 

[glorydaz]

I am not asking you to separate the verse from its context. But I would like to know the meaning that you place on the word "disposed" as it is used in the following translation which you think is correct:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were disposed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

I'm glad you're not asking me to separate the verse from it's context, because it cannot be rightly understood on it's own (IMO). The fact that the Jews had judged themselves unworthy of eternal life and were acting so by rejecting the word of life being preached, means the verse following about the Gentiles is the exact opposite of that. The Gentiles were making it clear they had a desire to be deemed worthy by responding to the word of life that was preached. They were favourably disposed toward what the Jews were not favourably disposed to.

I'll get to your other points in the next post.

I'd like to see if you'll settle for this one first.

 

[musterion]

They were favourably disposed toward what the Jews were not favourably disposed to.

That's it right there. They exercised faith in what they heard, the Jews refused to. Simple, really.

 

[glorydaz]

Besides that, what do you think is the meaning of the words "sanctification of the Spirit" in the following verse?:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:1-2).​

Also, do you think that those words mean the same thing in the following verse?:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

Thanks!

Since I'm sure you know what sanctification of the Spirit is, I'm assuming you are looking for something else from me. Paul's message is pertaining to those who have believed the Gospel and been indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.​

Peter, however, is using terminology that would speak to the Jews, and therefore I can't say the two are saying the same thing. I do like how Peter speaks of the trinity....foreknown by the Father, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and the "sprinking of the blood" of Jesus. I'm inclined to think Peter is referring to their enduring persecution. Beyond that, I'm willing to hear what you might have to say. I can't speak to what I'm not sure of. Sorry.

 

[Lon]

That's it right there. They exercised faith in what they heard, the Jews refused to. Simple, really.

:think: to me, it looks like the same problem no matter what theological position you are in: God chose according to His own purpose, God chose according to those who were 'predisposed,' To me, it always looks like a special or limited group of focus. The Jews, are and/or were chosen, etc.

What DOES make for a person desiring salvation? Did Saul seek it? Did the intervention 'prior' to his salvation "predispose" him? Didn't God make that condition as well?

Often times I'm left saying :idunno: and God is about His business and saving as many as He can, is, I think, His business. For me, this is why I think comparing isn't as divisive among us by reality. We are all trying to address these questions meaningfully in a way that honors the Lord Jesus Christ. -Lon

 

[glorydaz]

:think: to me, it looks like the same problem no matter what theological position you are in: God chose according to His own purpose, God chose according to those who were 'predisposed,' To me, it always looks like a special or limited group of focus. The Jews, are and/or were chosen, etc.

What DOES make for a person desiring salvation? Did Saul seek it? Did the intervention 'prior' to his salvation "predispose" him? Didn't God make that condition as well?

Often times I'm left saying :idunno: and God is about His business and saving as many as He can, is, I think, His business. For me, this is why I think comparing isn't as divisive among us by reality. We are all trying to address these questions meaningfully in a way that honors the Lord Jesus Christ. -Lon

It seems clear to me. We see the means by which we are chosen, and that is by belief in the truth. It's why we're told we are called by the Gospel.


"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

 

[Danoh]

:think: to me, it looks like the same problem no matter what theological position you are in: God chose according to His own purpose, God chose according to those who were 'predisposed,' To me, it always looks like a special or limited group of focus. The Jews, are and/or were chosen, etc.

What DOES make for a person desiring salvation? Did Saul seek it? Did the intervention 'prior' to his salvation "predispose" him? Didn't God make that condition as well?

Often times I'm left saying :idunno: and God is about His business and saving as many as He can, is, I think, His business. For me, this is why I think comparing isn't as divisive among us by reality. We are all trying to address these questions meaningfully in a way that honors the Lord Jesus Christ. -Lon

The actual sense of that passage is that as many Gentiles as were called unto eternal life by Paul's preaching that day, believed.

It is a testimony to how in reverse things had ended up - so much of Israel in Unbelief - in contrast to the many Gentiles who were believing.

The actual context there is Romans 11:11.

Acts 17: 11, 12.

 

[Lon]

It seems clear to me. We see the means by which we are chosen, and that is by belief in the truth. It's why we're told we are called by the Gospel.

Yes, but from God's perspective does He know who that might be AND is such cater-made for them? :think: As I said, for me, there is always the same questions "no matter which theological perspective one comes from."

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

For me, it just encourages me to trust God simply because of how my mind approaches things too wonderful for me. God is no respecter of persons Acts 10:34 and does not show favoritism Romans 2:11.

 

[Lon]

The actual sense of that passage is that as many Gentiles as were called unto eternal life by Paul's preaching that day, believed.

Interesting in and of itself :think:

It is a testimony to how in reverse things had ended up - so much of Israel in Unbelief - in contrast to the many Gentiles who were believing.

The actual context there is Romans 11:11, Acts 17: 11, 12

I'm not sure I've read back far enough to know what context you mean. Is it from Acts as follows?

Would appreciate a little more background or referring me back to the posts where discussed. Thank you. -Lon

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, but from God's perspective does He know who that might be AND is such cater-made for them? :think: As I said, for me, there is always the same questions "no matter which theological perspective one comes from."




For me, it just encourages me to trust God simply because of how my mind approaches things too wonderful for me. God is no respecter of persons Acts 10:34 and does not show favoritism Romans 2:11.

Actually, He is well pleased with His Beloved Son. He is the Elect ONE chosen by God. Those in the Elect ONE are elect because of their position IN HIM. That is the purpose from the beginning. The only thing special about believers is the fact that we are IN THE BELOVED, and we get there when we believe. Quite simple.

 

[Danoh]

Interesting in and of itself :think:

It is a testimony to how in reverse things had ended up - so much of Israel in Unbelief - in contrast to the many Gentiles who were believing.


I'm not sure I've read back far enough to know what context you mean. Is it from Acts as follows?

Would appreciate a little more background or referring me back to the posts where discussed. Thank you. -Lon

What is going on throughout this seemingly odd new Apostle OF THE GENTILES ministry, is within the context of Romans 1:18-3:31; Romans 9-11, etc; summarized in Romans 11:11.

What Paul declares to the Sanhedrin in Acts 13, is the same declaration he later summarizes in written form, in Romans 11:11.

Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

In other words, before Acts 13, Israel has already fallen.

And the salvation of God has gone to the Gentiles.

Compare Acts 9 with Acts 15 and Galatians 1, as to where Paul went in Acts 9 and Galatians 1, and where he later returned to in Acts 15 - to Gentiles "far hence" some 300 miles away from Jerusalem.

In Acts 13, Paul is well aware his nation has been concluded in unbelief as a nation.

His preaching his gospel in light of that, and to them in light of that, reflects this...

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Another aspect of his dealing with Israel is as individuals...

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Acts 17:11, 12.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Since I'm sure you know what sanctification of the Spirit is, I'm assuming you are looking for something else from me.

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "sanctification" is "separation to God...1 Pet.1:2" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).

Therefore, we can understand that being chosen or elected is through the instrumentality of the Spirit when He separates a person to God. That happens when a person is baptized into the Body of Christ by one Spirit:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Therefore, when we look at the following two passages the thought is that the LORD's foreknowledge is in regard to people being saved by being placed into the Body of Christ:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:1-2).​

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

When we compare these two verses we can understand that the "foreknowledge" spoken of here is in regard to salvation and it is those who believe who are saved--"God hath from the beginning (through His foreknowledge) chosen you to salvation through belief of the truth."

Therefore, the LORD's foreknowledge is about "individual" salvation. He knows beforehand who will believe and who will not believe and it is "individuals" who are chosen "in Him" (in the Body of Christ) before the world began:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).​

Please tell me how it can be said that the LORD knew before the world began who would believe and who wouldn't unless He exists outside of time.

Thanks!

 

[Danoh]

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "sanctification" is "separation to God...1 Pet.1:2" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).

Therefore, we can understand that being chosen or elected is through the instrumentality of the Spirit when He separates a person to God. That happens when a person is baptized into the Body of Christ by one Spirit:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Therefore, when we look at the following two passages the thought is that the LORD's foreknowledge is in regard to people being saved by being placed into the Body of Christ:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:1-2).​

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

When we compare these two verses we can understand that the "foreknowledge" spoken of here is in regard to salvation and it is those who believe who are saved--"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through belief of the truth."

Therefore, the LORD's foreknowledge is about "individual" salvation. He knows beforehand who will believe and who will not believe.

The only way that could be possible is because the LORD exists outside of time.

Your same old nonsense, Jerry.

One, word studies are about studying out in Scripture ITSELF HOW ANY word and or phrase is being used - AND - in- EACH - SPECIFIC - instance.

Two, likewise as to other, closely related words and or phrases - and by that very same rule, or principle.

Three, likewise as to the identifying first, of the overall narrative, theme, scope, subject, and context (both near and remote) wherein each word and or phrase is found being used.

Not by looking them up in dictionaries, or worse - towards cherry picking which ever definition favors one's insisted on bias.

Likewise, when it comes to relying on the endless books "about" by men.

Both of which you have long been infamous for.

Rom. 14:5; 5:6-8.