The Two Natures of the Christian

[Robert Pate]

A Christian is a sinner and a saint at the same time.

Paul wrote, "For the good that I would do, I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do" Romans 7:19.

The Christian life is a struggle against sin, if you don't have this struggle in your life you may not have the Holy Spirit that convicts the Christian of sin. The Christian has the law of God and the nature of Christ written on his heart, Hebrews 8:10.

The Christians sin nature can be subdued, but it cannot be eliminated. There are some holiness religions that teach the Christians sin nature can be eliminated. I have never met a Christian that has eliminated his sin nature. The more they try to overcome sin, the more they sin. This is what Paul was explaining in Romans 7:7-12.

What is the answer to the Christians sin problem? There isn't one. We are born sinners and we die sinners. At the end of Romans 7 Paul cries out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" Romans 7:24, 25. Paul is attempting to separate his mind from his flesh. Neat trick if you can do it.

What does it mean to walk in the Spirit and not after the flesh? Romans 8:1. What is the flesh? The flesh is anything that pertains to us, who are the sinners. The Spirit is anything that pertains to Christ and his Gospel. Paul wrote, "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit" Romans 8:5. Religion is a thing of the flesh. Religious people are into their religion, which is about them. The Christ centered, Gospel believing Christian is into Jesus Christ and his Gospel which is of the Spirit.

The Gospel leads us outside of ourselves to Jesus Christ, who is greater and purer than us. Jesus is the one that overcame sin, death and the devil. Jesus is the one that fulfilled every jot and tittle of God's Holy Law. Jesus is the one that reconciled us and the world unto God. Jesus is the one that now sits at the right hand of God as our intercessor and is "The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords". If you want to walk in the Spirit you will have think on these things and not on yourself or your religion.

Accept your sinner hood, Admit it to yourself and to others that you fall short of what God's Holy Law requires, Romans 3:23. Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners. If you are not a sinner you may not qualify. We are called to live our lives before God as sinners, saved sinners. God knows that you miss the mark. He wants you to know also that you miss the mark.

 

[Totton Linnet]

This is wrong. Paul in Ro.7 was recounting his experience as one under the law but not saved, he is explaining the struggle that takes place between the mind which desires to be obedient to the law and the flesh which is in rebellion against the law of God.

The reason Christians experience this self same struggle is because they try to conquer sin in their flesh by obeying commands, they have not fully understood and accepted that Christ hath borne their sins.

Sin can only be evaluated by the law....thou shalt do thus and so, thou shalt not do such and such.

So when Christians fail to do thus and so or they find themselves doing such and such, they say "oh my goodness I have broken the commandments...I am a sinner still" but this is not true [of COURSE it is the devil behind it] the devil wants to get you back under this struggle with him of "thou shalt...thou shalt not" He KNOWS he can whack the pants off'n you, and he will keep you a poor defeated, unproductive, untestifying Christian all your life long.

He [the devil] has neutralised you. Oh wretched man/woman that you are...who will deliver you?

Thanks be to God through Christ Jesus our Lord

How CAN you still be under the law when the gospel says that God nailed the handwriting which was against us to the cross?

We must learn to live by the new life with which we have been made ALIVE, the inner life of Christ.

 

[Totton Linnet]

The NT addresses us as overcomers, saints, beloved children....not sinners

It is time christians started thinking of themselves like God thinks of them, as a man/woman thinks so is he/she

 

[patrick jane]

The NT addresses us as overcomers, saints, beloved children....not sinners

It is time christians started thinking of themselves like God thinks of them, as a man/woman thinks so is he/she

Good points Tots

 

[jamie]

Paul wrote, "For the good that I would do, I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do" Romans 7:19.

concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. (Philippians 3:6)​

 

[jamie]

A Christian is a sinner and a saint at the same time.

Christ does not coexist with sin.

so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. (Hebrews 9:28 NIV)​

 

[WeberHome]

-
Back in early part of the 1970s, the passage below disturbed me quite a bit.

● 1John 3:9 . . No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

But then a pastor whom I trusted pointed out that the man who penned 1John 3:9 also penned this next one.

● 1John 1:8-10 . . If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

I had incorrectly reasoned that if I had really undergone the spirit birth about which Christ spoke at John 3:3-8, then I was supposed to be clear of the capability to sin. But what I didn't know at the time, is that my human nature wasn't displaced by the spirit birth. No; my human nature was left intact and just as active as ever.

So then, according to 1John 3:9 the part of me spirit-born is 110% sinless, while according to 1John 1:8-10 the part of me human-born is hopelessly incorrigible.

Well thank God the part me human-born is detachable and won't accompany me when I leave this life; and that's when I'm going to really appreciate the power of the seed spoken of in 1John 3:9.

● Col 2:11 . . In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

[Robert Pate]

In God's eyes the Christian is perfect and complete "In Christ". In the Christians eyes and in the eyes of others the Christian is a sinner.

Many of the prophets and patriarchs confessed that they were sinners. King David said, "In sin did my mother conceive me" Psalm 51:5. We know for sure that David was a sinner because of his adulterous affair with Bathsheba.

It is not so much the written law that makes a Christian a sinner, it is the spiritual law, Romans 7:14. The spiritual law searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. Are all of your thoughts pure and without sin and lust?

Paul said that he was "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. Paul wanted to make sure that he qualified to be saved. Romans 7 is about Paul struggle with sin. Romans 7 is not about Paul before he became a Christian. Paul wrote Romans 7 while he was a Christian.

Many Christians cannot accept the fact that they are sinners because they don't understand the Gospel. They don't understand how God can justify the ungodly, Romans 4:5. They don't understand that salvation is totally and completely outside of them and is found only in the work and the person of Jesus Christ.

John said, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" 1 John 1:8. We all miss the mark. We all fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 says that we shall be changed. If you are already holy why would you need to be changed? I am looking forward to being changed.

 

[Totton Linnet]

In God's eyes the Christian is perfect and complete "In Christ". In the Christians eyes and in the eyes of others the Christian is a sinner.

Many of the prophets and patriarchs confessed that they were sinners. King David said, "In sin did my mother conceive me" Psalm 51:5. We know for sure that David was a sinner because of his adulterous affair with Bathsheba.

It is not so much the written law that makes a Christian a sinner, it is the spiritual law, Romans 7:14. The spiritual law searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. Are all of your thoughts pure and without sin and lust?

Paul said that he was "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. Paul wanted to make sure that he qualified to be saved. Romans 7 is about Paul struggle with sin. Romans 7 is not about Paul before he became a Christian. Paul wrote Romans 7 while he was a Christian.

Many Christians cannot accept the fact that they are sinners because they don't understand the Gospel. They don't understand how God can justify the ungodly, Romans 4:5. They don't understand that salvation is totally and completely outside of them and is found only in the work and the person of Jesus Christ.

John said, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" 1 John 1:8. We all miss the mark. We all fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 says that we shall be changed. If you are already holy why would you need to be changed? I am looking forward to being changed.

This is fundamentally wrong Ro 7 is not the Christian experience, Ro 8 is the Christian experience
You cain't say that Paul as apostle served God with his mind but with his flesh served sin

I BELIEVE in victory over sin, I experience victory over sin, it is more to me than simply our doctrinal status...."God said it therefore it must be so" this is true but I believe in going right on and actually ACHIEVING that state where you can testify that sin has no dominion over you.

The question is HOW?

It is not by struggling

Yes we have sin, it is in our members, in our flesh, but since we came to the cross our flesh has been slain with Christ and sin is slain with it. Whereas before we were dead to God and His righteousness, slain in trespasses and sins now we are dead unto sin and ALIVE unto righteousness.

But HOW?

By believing the revelation, there is but one victory over sin, but one sanctifying power.

"They overcame the devil by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony" The CROSS is the only victory.

Folks here are testifying to sin, the word of their testimony is that they are in the thrall of sin and always will be till they die, they are groaning, they are struggling.

I say STOP, please stop, you can never win that way. Get the revelation

Get the revelation, Jesus has already done it for you. His blood avails, it is totally sufficient, it will never fail....I do not say success is immediate, but keep walking, keep believing, keep testifying....sooner or later the devil has to back off and you will get victory.

Get the revelation, there is no more sin

Sin is MAGNIFIED in your members by the law, thou shalt not covet...suddenly you are aware of all kinds of covetousness...sin draws it strength from the law. You struggle, like a fly in a web....you have already been defeated, you will sin. WHY? because the devil is so much stronger and better at this than you.

Look him in the eye and tell him God's word "sin hath no more dominion over me....this sin you trying to trick me with was borne by Christ and no longer has power over me, I am MORE than a conqueror through Him who loved me...get thee gone"

It is more than an exercise, more than mind games it is KNOWING.

 

[Totton Linnet]

This is the strongest word in the epistles

Observing the law is anathema to the gospel, the law is blessing if you keep it but cursing if you fail in so much as a dot or comma of it.

Christ hath DELIVERED us from the curse of the law

 

[jamie]

If you are already holy why would you need to be changed?

If we are already perfect and complete how could we grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ?

but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 3:18)​

Why don't you stop making up stuff?

 

[jamie]

If we say that we have no sin...

If we say we have no sin that means we have repented of our sin and Christ has paid the penalty of the second death for us with his death.

Once a debt is paid it is no longer owed, it is gone. How far away has our sin gone?

As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.
(Psalm 103:12)​

How far is the east from the west? The distance is the thickness of the veil that once hid the mercy seat. The way is now open.
(Hebrews 10:19-20)

 

[Robert Pate]

This is fundamentally wrong Ro 7 is not the Christian experience, Ro 8 is the Christian experience
You cain't say that Paul as apostle served God with his mind but with his flesh served sin

I BELIEVE in victory over sin, I experience victory over sin, it is more to me than simply our doctrinal status...."God said it therefore it must be so" this is true but I believe in going right on and actually ACHIEVING that state where you can testify that sin has no dominion over you.

The question is HOW?

It is not by struggling

Yes we have sin, it is in our members, in our flesh, but since we came to the cross our flesh has been slain with Christ and sin is slain with it. Whereas before we were dead to God and His righteousness, slain in trespasses and sins now we are dead unto sin and ALIVE unto righteousness.

But HOW?

By believing the revelation, there is but one victory over sin, but one sanctifying power.

"They overcame the devil by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony" The CROSS is the only victory.

Folks here are testifying to sin, the word of their testimony is that they are in the thrall of sin and always will be till they die, they are groaning, they are struggling.

I say STOP, please stop, you can never win that way. Get the revelation

Get the revelation, Jesus has already done it for you. His blood avails, it is totally sufficient, it will never fail....I do not say success is immediate, but keep walking, keep believing, keep testifying....sooner or later the devil has to back off and you will get victory.

Get the revelation, there is no more sin

Sin is MAGNIFIED in your members by the law, thou shalt not covet...suddenly you are aware of all kinds of covetousness...sin draws it strength from the law. You struggle, like a fly in a web....you have already been defeated, you will sin. WHY? because the devil is so much stronger and better at this than you.

Look him in the eye and tell him God's word "sin hath no more dominion over me....this sin you trying to trick me with was borne by Christ and no longer has power over me, I am MORE than a conqueror through Him who loved me...get thee gone"

It is more than an exercise, more than mind games it is KNOWING.

If Paul professed that he was a sinner, 1 Timothy 1:15, then where does that leave you and me?

 

[musterion]

Well thank God the part me human-born is detachable and won't accompany me when I leave this life; and that's when I'm going to really appreciate the power of the seed spoken of in 1 John 3:9.

Well said. God already counts us as having been detached from it so, by faith, we're to reckon likewise. That is the only possible victory possible for believers in this world -- not struggling for victory against what is for us a relentless, unkillable old nature, but simple rest through reckoning on our co-death with Christ and the new nature we've received of Him. THAT is the true walk of faith because everything whispers or screams it isn't true when God said it is true.

 

[Robert Pate]

If we say we have no sin that means we have repented of our sin and Christ has paid the penalty of the second death for us with his death.

Once a debt is paid it is no longer owed, it is gone. How far away has our sin gone?

As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.
(Psalm 103:12)​

How far is the east from the west? The distance is the thickness of the veil that once hid the mercy seat. The way is now open.
(Hebrews 10:19-20)

You didn't quote the whole scripture.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" 1 John 1:8.

 

[Robert Pate]

If we are already perfect and complete how could we grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ?

but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 3:18)​

Why don't you stop making up stuff?

Paul said that you are corrupt, 1 Corinthians 15:53-54.

 

[Totton Linnet]

If Paul professed that he was a sinner, 1 Timothy 1:15, then where does that leave you and me?

Saved from sin...but you is saying we are not or not actually until we die, Paul was able to say that as far as he knew there was nothing in his life, his exhortation to us is that no sin shall not have dominion over us, again we are exhorted to shake off the sin which so easily besetteth.

Our souls are the garden of the Lord and we do have to keep it if we desire for the Lord's continual fellowship.

There is no condemnation here for the truth is a rock upon which we can stand....in God's eyes we are without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but I am saying that though this is true, not so many Christians understand that a very high standard of holiness is attainable to us now, but it can only be obtained by a fuller revelation of the cross.

I am not saying sinless perfection but victory...we can achieve it because we start off victorious in Christ.

 

[jamie]

You didn't quote the whole scripture.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" 1 John 1:8.

All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. (1 John 5:17)​

Repentance means a person does not continue to practice sin.

 

[jamie]

Paul said that you are corrupt, 1 Corinthians 15:53-54.

In Greek the word for corruptible means perishable. We are all perishable at this time.

 

[Robert Pate]

Saved from sin...but you is saying we are not or not actually until we die, Paul was able to say that as far as he knew there was nothing in his life, his exhortation to us is that no sin shall not have dominion over us, again we are exhorted to shake off the sin which so easily besetteth.

Our souls are the garden of the Lord and we do have to keep it if we desire for the Lord's continual fellowship.

There is no condemnation here for the truth is a rock upon which we can stand....in God's eyes we are without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but I am saying that though this is true, not so many Christians understand that a very high standard of holiness is attainable to us now, but it can only be obtained by a fuller revelation of the cross.

I am not saying sinless perfection but victory...we can achieve it because we start off victorious in Christ.

As long as we are on this earth in our Adamic bodies we are sinners, Romans 3:10.

Our hope is in Jesus Christ. When he appears we will appear with him, Colossians 3:4.

Spiritually we are perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. But we are not "In Christ" yet.