The Twin Doctrine That Brings No Hope of Salvation

[Samie]

Preachers of the doctrine "people are born in sin", both Arminians and Calvinists, also teach that unless people first believe, they could not be in Christ. What is amazing is these preachers seem to NOT realize that their twin doctrine brings about an impossibility for people to be in Christ.

1. If people are "born in sin", then they are born NOT in Christ.
2. If people are "born NOT in Christ", then they cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit.
3. If people cannot bear fruit, then they cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.
4. If people cannot have faith, then they cannot believe because faith is needed so that one can believe.
5. If people cannot believe, then, as per the twin doctrine, people cannot be in Christ.

Therefore, the twin doctrine "people are born in sin" and "unless people first believe they could not be in Christ" brings no hope of salvation.

Both Arminians and Calvinists have a lot of explaining to do.

 

[Robert Pate]

Preachers of the doctrine "people are born in sin", both Arminians and Calvinists, also teach that unless people first believe, they could not be in Christ. What is amazing is these preachers seem to NOT realize that their twin doctrine brings about an impossibility for people to be in Christ.

1. If people are "born in sin", then they are born NOT in Christ.
2. If people are "born NOT in Christ", then they cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit.
3. If people cannot bear fruit, then they cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.
4. If people cannot have faith, then they cannot believe because faith is needed so that one can believe.
5. If people cannot believe, then, as per the twin doctrine, people cannot be in Christ.

Therefore, the twin doctrine "people are born in sin" and "unless people first believe they could not be in Christ" brings no hope of salvation.

Both Arminians and Calvinists have a lot of explaining to do.

As usual, a lot of BS with no scripture to support what you are saying.

What you need to do is go down to your local hospital and talk to the nurses in the maternity ward. Birth defects are the result of sin. Some babies are still born (born dead). Death and sickness are the results of sin. "For as by one man sin entered the world and death by sin" Romans 5:12 The curse of sin is passed down upon everyone. If babies were born without sin they would not be born with birth defects and in some cases born dead.

 

[jamie]

1. If people are "born in sin", then they are born NOT in Christ.

None of us are born in Christ. He is not our parent.

We come to Christ by means of the Father.

 

[Samie]

As usual, a lot of BS with no scripture to support what you are saying.

Thought you're familiar with Scriptures, Pate. Here again:

1. If people are "born in sin", then they are born NOT in Christ, because sin separates man from God. Isa 59:2
2. If people are "born NOT in Christ", then they cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit. John 15:4, 5.
3. If people cannot bear fruit, then they cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit. Gal 5:22
4. If people cannot have faith, then they cannot believe because faith is needed so that one can believe. Heb 11:6
5. If people cannot believe, then, as per the twin doctrine, people cannot be in Christ.

There goes the scriptures you're NOT familiar with, Pate.

What you need to do is go down to your local hospital and talk to the nurses in the maternity ward. Birth defects are the result of sin. Some babies are still born (born dead). Death and sickness are the results of sin. "For as by one man sin entered the world and death by sin" Romans 5:12 The curse of sin is passed down upon everyone. If babies were born without sin they would not be born with birth defects and in some cases born dead.

So you're not likewise familiar with what Jesus Himself said:

KJV John 9:2-3 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Would you believe Jesus that birth defects are not the result of sin, Pate?

 

[Samie]

None of us are born in Christ. He is not our parent.

Oh sorry, but, is the hospital your parent because you were born in it, jamie?

We come to Christ by means of the Father.

John 6:44

 

[jamie]

Oh sorry, but, is the hospital your parent because you were born in it, jamie?

My experience has been hospitals do not give birth, people do.

I was born in August, but August is not my parent either.

My first birth was so much fun that I may choose to be born again.

And you? Were you ever born?

 

[Samie]

My experience has been hospitals do not give birth, people do.

I was born in August, but August is not my parent either.

My first birth was so much fun that I may choose to be born again.

And you? Were you ever born?

Yes. I was born in Christ.

 

[Samie]

The twin doctrine characterizes the brand of gospel preached to the world by both Arminians and Calvinists. Sadly, as has been shown in the OP, this brand of gospel when viewed through the lens of scripture, offers no hope of salvation.

Just wondering how many preachers who come to know of this fact will opt for a paradigm shift.

 

[jamie]

Yes. I was born in Christ.

Christ doesn't give birth.

However, as the last Adam he does give life.

 

[Epoisses]

Yes. I was born in Christ.

You were born in sin. Only those who are born-again are reborn in Christ. Read John 3 ignorant and proud Filipino!

 

[Samie]

You were born in sin. Only those who are born-again are reborn in Christ.

We all were born again because God had caused us to be so through the resurrection of Christ (1 Pet 1:3). And I'd rather believe Christ than believe you, my brother.

He said, little children are sure to enter the kingdom of heaven (see Matt 18:3; 19:14; Isa 11:6-9; 65:25). If they are born in sin, as you would have me believe, He would not have said that they are sure to enter the kingdom of heaven.

In the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son, He explained that people do not start life already lost (Luke 15):

Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold cared for by its shepherd.
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us. We start life NOT lost, and to be NOT lost is to be in Christ. But we all sinned and like sheep went astray (Isa 56:3). Hence, we are all enjoined to repent, that is, overcome evil with good.

Read John 3 ignorant and proud Filipino!

I have already read it long time ago. It does not say what you want it to say.

And thanks for name-calling. NOT able to defend your position nor squarely address the issue you resort to ad-hominem, my brother?

 

[Epoisses]

We all were born again because God had caused us to be so through the resurrection of Christ (1 Pet 1:3). And I'd rather believe Christ than believe you, my brother.

He said, little children are sure to enter the kingdom of heaven (see Matt 18:3; 19:14; Isa 11:6-9; 65:25). If they are born in sin, as you would have me believe, He would not have said that they are sure to enter the kingdom of heaven.

In the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son, He explained that people do not start life already lost (Luke 15):

Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold cared for by its shepherd.
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us. We start life NOT lost, and to be NOT lost is to be in Christ. But we all sinned and like sheep went astray (Isa 56:3). Hence, we are all enjoined to repent, that is, overcome evil with good.

I have already read it long time ago. It does not say what you want it to say.

And thanks for name-calling. NOT able to defend your position nor squarely address the issue you resort to ad-hominem, my brother?

We do not receive the new birth experience at natural birth! John 3 utterly demolishes your false beliefs. Jesus himself said that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit - John 3:6. It's pointless to debate a hardened heart like yours. Samie is here to give us the 'new light'! Your 'new light' is from the devil.

 

[patrick jane]

You were born in sin. Only those who are born-again are reborn in Christ. Read John 3 ignorant and proud Filipino!

That's racist

 

[Epoisses]

That's racist

Me and Samie go way back so I can get away with it. I was actually a missionary in the Phillipines back in the 90's. Do you have any good deeds like that?

 

[patrick jane]

Me and Samie go way back so I can get away with it. I was actually a missionary in the Phillipines back in the 90's. Do you have any good deeds like that?

Nope. I've never done anything even remotely good.

 

[Epoisses]

Nope. I've never done anything even remotely good.

I believe it.

 

[Samie]

We do not receive the new birth experience at natural birth!

We were born again because God caused us to be born again through the resurrection of Christ. 1 Pet 1:3

John 3 utterly demolishes your false beliefs. Jesus himself said that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit - John 3:6.

The verse does not and cannot crush what Jesus Himself explained in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son. Luke 15

Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheep fold cared for by its shepherd.
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us all. We start out life NOT lost, and to be NOT lost is to be in Christ. But we all sinned and like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6). Hence we are all enjoined to repent or perish. Luke 13:3, 5. also see Ezek 18:30; Mark 1:14, 15; Acts 17:30.

In the parables of the lost, what Jesus Himself crushed is the false doctrine that people start out life already lost, that they are born in sin. Why can't you believe what Jesus Himself explained that people start life NOT lost?

It's pointless to debate a hardened heart like yours.

It's even more pointless to debate with someone who simply resorts to ad hominems simply because he has nowhere in Scriptures to turn to. But you can do better than name-calling, brother. You are in Christ, born in Him. You have His strength (Phil 4:13) to NOT resort to ad-hominems.

Samie is here to give us the 'new light'! Your 'new light' is from the devil.

Even Jesus was labelled as being of Beelzebub. Matt 10:25-27.

Funny, you think what you believe is truth although it is diametrically OPPOSITE to what Christ Himself explained in the parables of the lost.

 

[ttruscott]

KJV John 9:2-32 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

This DOES NOT SAY that birth defects were not from sin but that in this one particular case, the reason for the Man, an Israelite, to be born blind was for the glory of GOD in that only the Messiah was believed to be able to cure an Israelite born blind. And if it was totally unreasonable to ask if he was being punished for his sin that resulted in him being born blind, why did Christ not address this fallacy and nip it in the bud? This idea is fairly foreign to Hebrew doctrine so probably not available to the ordinary person yet it came to their minds immediately...after following Chirst for three years.

Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death and that death includes all suffering also. The wage of suffering and death is paid to babies in the womb and to infants but not paid to non-sinners, right? No holy angels suffer and die? You are flogging dead horse methinks...

 

[Epoisses]

We were born again because God caused us to be born again through the resurrection of Christ. 1 Pet 1:3

The verse does not and cannot crush what Jesus Himself explained in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son. Luke 15

Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheep fold cared for by its shepherd.
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us all. We start out life NOT lost, and to be NOT lost is to be in Christ. But we all sinned and like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6). Hence we are all enjoined to repent or perish. Luke 13:3, 5. also see Ezek 18:30; Mark 1:14, 15; Acts 17:30.

In the parables of the lost, what Jesus Himself crushed is the false doctrine that people start out life already lost, that they are born in sin. Why can't you believe what Jesus Himself explained that people start life NOT lost?

It's even more pointless to debate with someone who simply resorts to ad hominems simply because he has nowhere in Scriptures to turn to. But you can do better than name-calling, brother. You are in Christ, born in Him. You have His strength (Phil 4:13) to NOT resort to ad-hominems.

Even Jesus was labelled as being of Beelzebub. Matt 10:25-27.

Funny, you think what you believe is truth although it is diametrically OPPOSITE to what Christ Himself explained in the parables of the lost.

You completely ignored John 3 which shows you are not willing to deal with the scriptures that deal specifically with the new-birth.

 

[Samie]

You completely ignored John 3 which shows you are not willing to deal with the scriptures that deal specifically with the new-birth.

In John 3, Jesus speaks of the necessity of new birth but He did not dwell on how one is born anew. It is in 1 Pet 1:3 where Scripture tells us how our spiritual rebirth came about:

NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

You see, our new birth is by God's grace, NOT an iota of human participation.

As revealed on the cross, God first fashioned us into the body of His Son, thereby creating a new man: Christ the Head, humanity the Body (Eph 2:14-16). When the Head died, the body died (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9). That death reconciled us all to God (Rom 5:10), freed us all from sin (Rom 6:7; Rev 1:5), with all sins forgiven (Col 2:13, 14). When the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive TOGETHER with Him (Col 2:13; Eph 2:4-6), born again into a living hope of life eternal (1 Pet 1:3; Titus 3:4-7).