The Trinity

The Trinity


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daqq

Well-known member
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Originally Posted by Right Divider
Nonsense, as usual.

According to your "story" what happened to the spirit that lived in Jesus BEFORE your supposed spirit came down from heaven?

Paul clearly states that Yeshua the Anointed one emptied himself, (Philippians 2:7 ASV).
That is what happens when you do not actually believe Paul.


Philippians 2:7 T/R
7 αλλ εαυτον εκενωσε μορφην δουλου λαβων εν ομοιωματι ανθρωπων γενομενος

Philippians 2:7 W/H
7 αλλα εαυτον εκενωσεν μορφην δουλου λαβων εν ομοιωματι ανθρωπων γενομενος και σχηματι ευρεθεις ως ανθρωπος


BDB - Strong's Greek Definition for # 2758
2758 // kenow // kenoo // ken-o'-o //
from 2756 ; TDNT - 3:661,426; v
AV - make void 2, make of none effect 1, make of no reputation 1,
be in vain 1; 5
1) to empty, make empty
1a) of Christ, he laid aside equality with or the form of God
2) to make void
2a) deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect
3) to make void
3b) cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, false
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=2758

Strong's Concordance
kenoó: to empty
Original Word: κενόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: kenoó
Phonetic Spelling: (ken-o'-o)
Short Definition: I empty, deprive of content, make unreal
Definition: (a) I empty, (b) I deprive of content, make unreal.
http://biblehub.com/greek/2758.htm

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2758 kenóō – properly, to empty out, render void; (passive) be emptied – hence, without recognition, perceived as valueless (Phil 2:7). See 2756 (kenos).
http://biblehub.com/greek/2758.htm

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from kenos
Definition
to empty
NASB Translation
emptied (1), made empty (1), made void (2), make...empty (1).
http://biblehub.com/greek/2758.htm

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2758: κενόω
κενόω, κενῷ: (future κενώσω, 1 Corinthians 9:15 L text T Tr WH); 1 aorist ἐκενωσα; passive, perfect κεκνωμαι; 1 aorist ἐκενωθην;
1. to empty, make empty: ἑαυτόν ἐκένωσε, namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7 (see a fuller exposition of this passage in
2. to make void i. e. deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect: passive, Romans 4:14; 1 Corinthians 1:17.
3. to make void i. e. cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, false: τό καύχημα, 1 Corinthians 9:15; passive 2 Corinthians 9:3. (Twice in the Sept. viz. Jeremiah 14:2; Jeremiah 15:9; often in Attic writings.)
http://biblehub.com/greek/2758.htm

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
empty, make void, be in vain.
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.
see GREEK kenos
http://biblehub.com/greek/2758.htm

Philippians 2:7 ASV
7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;

And the definitions which insert the idea that Yeshua "laid aside his equality with God" are nothing more than expositors inserting their own heretical divisive dogma into the definition. It is utterly ridiculous to even suggest that God laid aside his equality with God to be filled with the Holy Spirit of God. Hence it is perfectly obvious to anyone with half a brain that even the definitions are not immune to the Trinitarian bias. :)
 
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keypurr

Well-known member
I don't see where it says that Jesus was given the express image of God, I just saw where it said he was the express image of God. I think your theory is adding more than what we have been directly told.
The express image is as close to being God's one could be. He has the fullness of his creator. God created all through him. Christ (express image) is the son in Heb 1, Col 1 and spoken of in Phil 2. He is a spirit, not a man. Genesis 1 say the spirit of God mover across the face of the waters. I question that is the same spirit for God did everything through his son Christ.

When I first realized this I thought I was crazy. But the more I looked into it the more I was convinced that this is true. The shoe fits very well with scripture. I Sincerly feel I was given these thoughts, why? To share and teach that there is only one True God and one Lord Jesus Christ. These are the we/us/our mentioned in Genesis.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app
 

keypurr

Well-known member
The Bible says that you're either confused or a liar.
John 1:1-14 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (1:2) The same was in the beginning with God. (1:3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (1:4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men. (1:5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (1:6) ¶ There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John. (1:7) The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe. (1:8) He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light. (1:9) [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (1:10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. (1:11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not. (1:12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: (1:13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (1:14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Who is "the Word"?

The WORD or logos I understand to be the Miltha.

That is the spiritual son, the express image. Singular godlike spirit.

Most think it is Jesus but it is not. It is the spirit he was given at his anointing. The spirit became flesh. The spirit was sent from heaven. That spirit is the Son of Man.

God was not born in Bethlehem, Jesus was. He is the body God prepared for the spirit son.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Nonsense, as usual.

According to your "story" what happened to the spirit that lived in Jesus BEFORE your supposed spirit came down from heaven?

Define the Dove if you can.

Jesus became the Christ when Christ went IN him.

Got to drive the old folks again in the morning so I got to say good nite for now.

Blessings to all
 

Rosenritter

New member
You should put an EXCLAMATION POINT if you're going to make demands!
I answered your question. Can't help that you wasted yours on something stupid. So you will spend five posts refusing to answer and asking for an explanation point, and still won't answer?

... but that is one impressive exclamation point. Now, can you manage an EXPLANATION point, and answer the question?

When does the SCRIPTURE say that Jesus was begotten of the Father? Not what "Trinity" says, what does scripture actually say? Cite the specific reference that you use to form your answer. Don't add more than what it actually says.
 
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Rosenritter

New member
No, dead is dead. How else can the word be plainer?
The dead know nothing so they could not awaken themselves.

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You know better than that Keypurr. God built the rules of this universe. He could build special rules if he needed. Let's call those "miracles."

1. God could have "time traveled" from Time A to Time B and he would effectively be "dead" in between.

2. God could "pre-program" that he could die and come back to life after a set period of time.

3. Or perhaps God experienced death by dying in the flesh within this universe he created for us, while still existing outside of it, like the way my Rosenritter account could be banned or deleted and I would still be alive in my "real world" while dead to the rest of TOL.

Do we really need to understand they metaphysics of how it could work before we believe, or is it enough to have faith that God somehow did what he said he did?
 
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Rosenritter

New member
The express image is as close to being God's one could be. He has the fullness of his creator. God created all through him. Christ (express image) is the son in Heb 1, Col 1 and spoken of in Phil 2. He is a spirit, not a man. Genesis 1 say the spirit of God mover across the face of the waters. I question that is the same spirit for God did everything through his son Christ.

When I first realized this I thought I was crazy. But the more I looked into it the more I was convinced that this is true. The shoe fits very well with scripture. I Sincerly feel I was given these thoughts, why? To share and teach that there is only one True God and one Lord Jesus Christ. These are the we/us/our mentioned in Genesis.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

I feel as if you left out part of the scripture while forming your conclusion, like the first chapter of John.

John 1:1-3 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


When you read this, do you understand this to mean that "the Word" is being used to refer to God?

John 1:14 KJV
(14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So whomever you just acknowledged the Word to be, that was whom was made flesh. The Word cannot be made, because "without him was not any thing made that was made" which means he is uncreated. If we have One Creator, that creator was made flesh.

It does not say that the creator "made flesh" but that he "was made flesh." No mention of a created "spirit son" in that passage. I don't think it's complicated. I don't think you think it's complicated either, but you must have an objection or a perceived contradiction in the back of your mind. Can you attempt to state what those might be, so that I (or someone else) might have a chance to fairly answer them?

And if they are answerable and able to be answered, would you be willing to consider the likely solution that John might be speaking plainly?
 

Rosenritter

New member
You can have any opinion that you want, I don't really care.


The trinity doctrine is not a "presupposition", no matter how many times you want to repeat that opinion.


I get the feeling that you're another GT. Is it your opinion that "the Father with a body" makes a "son".


So are the Father and Son related (along with the Holy Spirit)? Are "THESE THREE" one?

It appears that according to you that there are not three at all.


AGAIN you make the false accusation that I side with James White. I do not associate myself with James White, but don't let that stop your false accusations.


So how do you get to the "these three are one", if you never actually have three in the first place?

Are you and GT in agreement that "the Father with a body" constitutes TWO of the THREE?

It's no longer an "opinion" that you are unwilling or unable to answer straight questions. You'll post five times stalling without answering, in spite of unproven claims that "It's what scripture says" and the like. And yes, "Trinity" does have its own presuppositions and assumptions. You'd be a fool to insist otherwise. So don't insist.

I'll answer your question, even if you will not answer mine. I would say that "God in the flesh" is the "Son of God." Not "the Father" because that term wasn't being used before the New Testament, so the scope would be inaccurate. Sort of like if I asked if "Mrs. Smith" graduated high school. When we are dealing with precision, it was actually "Ms. Jones" because "Mrs. Smith" didn't apply until later. "Father" is a designation or title, not the person of God, and that title (or designation) didn't have application yet.

Are the Father and Son related, along with the Holy Spirit? I'd say they are as related as the Lamb of God and the Lion of Judah and the Sun of Righteousness. I could use any number of God's forms and titles and say "These are one" and it would be just as correct, and also accurate to the sense that John wrote.

For example, I could say "There are four which bore witness to Moses, the burning bush, and the cloud, and pillar of flame, and the rock, and these four are one." There is nothing magical about the number three, or four, or eight in this sense. What John is saying that they are not separate or really different, they are actually one. This agrees with the rest of scripture. Not multiple Gods, nor multiple people with the last name of "God", nor a pantheon of Gods as described by James White.

You asked "How do you get to these three are one" ... I have answered that, haven't I? John did not say there are exclusively three, he did not say there are only three, he chose three for the purposes of his illustration. He chose three, and clarified that they were really, in actuality, one. "There are three that testify of the elephant, the trunk, the legs, and the tail, and these three are one." I could have tossed in tusks and belly but I chose three because that fit the proverb of the blind men.

John chose three because it parallels his description of Spirit, water, and blood in verse 8. To avoid any confusion that might engender "denying the Son" or "polytheism" or "Trinity" (well, not Trinity, it hadn't been invented yet and wouldn't be for a couple hundred years) he says "These three are one."

1 John 5:6-9 KJV
(6) This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
(7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
(8) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
(9) If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.


So how long are you going to continue to call me a "heretic" for actually believing John when he says "and these three are one" instead of as the "Trinity" insists that "these three are three, do not confuse the persons, you must NOT believe they are really one!"
 

Right Divider

Body part
The WORD or logos I understand to be the Miltha.
So the Greek is not good enough for you that you need to translate it to Hebrew instead of English?

PAY ATTENTION, it says the following things:
  • The WORD was WITH God
  • The WORD was God
  • The WORD made ALL THINGS
  • All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Please let us all know how the WORD could be a CREATION when He CREATED ALL THINGS.

That is the spiritual son, the express image. Singular godlike spirit.
Nonsense, He is the CREATOR OF ALL THINGS.

Most think it is Jesus but it is not. It is the spirit he was given at his anointing. The spirit became flesh. The spirit was sent from heaven. That spirit is the Son of Man.
The WORD became flesh by taking a body and not by taking OVER a body.

God was not born in Bethlehem, Jesus was. He is the body God prepared for the spirit son.
God was not born in Bethlehem. He became flesh.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Define the Dove if you can.
Matt 3:16 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:16) And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Not "the Dove", it was LIKE A DOVE!

This is typical of your inability to understand and your poor to horrible handling of DETAILS

Jesus became the Christ when Christ went IN him.
The does NOT say IN, it says UPON. Again, your "ideas" force you to TWIST (i.e., corrupt) the Word of God!
 

Rosenritter

New member
Matt 3:16 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:16) And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Not "the Dove", it was LIKE A DOVE!

This is typical of your inability to understand and your poor to horrible handling of DETAILS


The does NOT say IN, it says UPON. Again, your "ideas" force you to TWIST (i.e., corrupt) the Word of God!

The "like a dove" is a special effect then? Perhaps a small, gentle, fluttery special effect, but not like "thunder" or "cloven tongues of fire" right?
 

Rosenritter

New member
This is a GREAT contribution to the forum. Thanks.


It's called a SIMILE. You might want to look it up.

I was just showing what the scripture actually says as opposed to what keypurr said that it said.
Correct me if I am mistaken on this, but isn't spirit normally invisible to us? So if someone sees with their eyes we were meant to see it for emphasis or visual impression.

That's called "Special effects." God didn't have to speak or be seen in additional ways but it was done so for effect for those watching.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Correct me if I am mistaken on this, but isn't spirit normally invisible to us? So if someone sees with their eyes we were meant to see it for emphasis or visual impression.

That's called "Special effects." God didn't have to speak or be seen in additional ways but it was done so for effect for those watching.
And what does this have to do with me pointing out to keypurr that it was NOT "the Dove". but "like a dove"?
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Matt 3:16 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:16) And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Not "the Dove", it was LIKE A DOVE!

This is typical of your inability to understand and your poor to horrible handling of DETAILS


The does NOT say IN, it says UPON. Again, your "ideas" force you to TWIST (i.e., corrupt) the Word of God!
Don't you see the words "the spirit of God"? What do you think that could be, does everyone get a Dove? Think RD. Jesus was special he received the spirit of God. The express image.

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Rosenritter

New member
Don't you see the words "the spirit of God"? What do you think that could be, does everyone get a Dove? Think RD. Jesus was special he received the spirit of God. The express image.

Sent from my A622GL using TheologyOnline mobile app

I don't see how this establishes that God "possessed" an innocent person. May I ask a different type of question? If I were to assume that you were correct, how would this affect my actions or belief in any practical way?

I also have another question. It is usually assumed that Jesus was without sin, that is, sinless. One often finds Hebrews 4:15 used for confirmation in that regard. Do you agree with this? And if so, does that apply to the human Jesus or just the possessing spirit son? Depending on your answer I have a followup question as well.
 
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