the Sibbie & Knight

[Freak]

I have to be honest with everyone.

I may be wrong.

I know God has been dealing with my heart on this issue of the "death penalty." In fact, I even had a dream, last night, which prompted me to create this thread, that deals with this issue. The Law--as Paul stated-should be used to bring the unrighteous to Jesus. So, why not the death penalty-- as it was utilized under the Old Covenant. God really used this statement, by the Sibbie, to make me ponder the usefulness of the death penalty...

"If God is going to give them the Ultimate Everlasting Death Sentence, then execution is a highly appropriate way for the government to accurately represent God as His minister. Let law be their "tutor" to bring them to Christ. (See Galations 3:24)."

Powerful and true. The Law should be utilized to bring people to Jesus. I know when I proclaim the gospel I use the law as a reminder of the sinfulness of man. Why not use the law--the legitimacy of the death penalty--to awaken sinners? Besides, the Law provides a moral compass and restraint.

But, this is where I'm having the problem...

I just don't think the New Covenant---I have pointed to some examples--calls others to the death penalty. I see mercy truimphing over judgment. I just don't see the early church calling those guilty of the death penalty to the death penalty. Where is the fidelty to the truth. You would think the early church would have called those guilty of the captial crimes to surrender to the truth--the death penalty. However, this does not occur, rather you see redemption and grace.

I'm willing to be open to the Scriptures. I desire to be righteous in calling people to the truth. So, God has used TOL, specifically- the Sibbie and Knight (in the past) to touch my heart on this issue so i'm willing to be opened to the truth...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Freak,

The Bibical basis of the death penalty is: "Whosoever sheddeth man´s blood,by man shall his blood be shed"(Gen.9:6).

God delegated to man certain areas of His authority,in which he was to obey God through submission to his fellow man ("Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar´s",Mt.22:21).Previous to this restraint upon man was eternal,but now a new and external restraint was added—the power of civil government.

During this evil age this restraint should be in force just as it was in past times.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[Nathon Detroit]

But, this is where I'm having the problem...

I just don't think the New Covenant---I have pointed to some examples--calls others to the death penalty. I see mercy truimphing over judgment. I just don't see the early church calling those guilty of the death penalty to the death penalty. Where is the fidelty to the truth. You would think the early church would have called those guilty of the captial crimes to surrender to the truth--the death penalty. However, this does not occur, rather you see redemption and grace.

I'm willing to be open to the Scriptures. I desire to be righteous in calling people to the truth. So, God has used TOL, specifically- the Sibbie and Knight (in the past) to touch my heart on this issue so i'm willing to be opened to the truth...

Freak... first off... let me say.... excellent post! :up:

If there is anyone who still doesn't think you are making the best of your unbanning this post should be proof that you have made a change.

I think your above paragraph illustrates your misunderstanding of the death penalty issue (in my opinion).

It seems to me you are still confusing the Law with the law. "The Law" as in God's covenant with Israel and the law as in the moral requirements of all man-kind for all of history in regard to criminal justice.

Set aside the death penalty and capital crimes for a moment. Let's think of a far lesser crime say something like minor theft.

God said... "You shall not steal. "

This command spans all covenants.

When God set aside Israel and ushered in grace through the apostle Paul He didn't "grace out" the crime and criminal consequences of thievery. God still expects that we punish the thief even in this dispensation of grace!

In opposition to the death penalty you (Freak) have stated... "mercy triumphs over judgment".

Does mercy triumph over judgment when it comes to stealing? Should we show mercy upon the thief and not appropriately punish him? Of course not! God expects that we deal with the criminal element in a righteous way in any dispensation. We must not confuse God's covenants for salvation with God's criminal justice system.

 

[Poly]

I have to be honest with everyone.

I may be wrong.

I know God has been dealing with my heart on this issue of the "death penalty." In fact, I even had a dream, last night, which prompted me to create this thread, that deals with this issue. The Law--as Paul stated-should be used to bring the unrighteous to Jesus. So, why not the death penalty-- as it was utilized under the Old Covenant. God really used this statement, by the Sibbie, to make me ponder the usefulness of the death penalty...

"If God is going to give them the Ultimate Everlasting Death Sentence, then execution is a highly appropriate way for the government to accurately represent God as His minister. Let law be their "tutor" to bring them to Christ. (See Galations 3:24)."

Powerful and true. The Law should be utilized to bring people to Jesus. I know when I proclaim the gospel I use the law as a reminder of the sinfulness of man. Why not use the law--the legitimacy of the death penalty--to awaken sinners? Besides, the Law provides a moral compass and restraint.

But, this is where I'm having the problem...

I just don't think the New Covenant---I have pointed to some examples--calls others to the death penalty. I see mercy truimphing over judgment. I just don't see the early church calling those guilty of the death penalty to the death penalty. Where is the fidelty to the truth. You would think the early church would have called those guilty of the captial crimes to surrender to the truth--the death penalty. However, this does not occur, rather you see redemption and grace.

I'm willing to be open to the Scriptures. I desire to be righteous in calling people to the truth. So, God has used TOL, specifically- the Sibbie and Knight (in the past) to touch my heart on this issue so i'm willing to be opened to the truth...

Posts like this aren't very common around here. It takes a lot of Christian maturity to submit such a post. :up:

 

[Servo]

Wow! Am I dreaming right now? Did Freak actually post that?

And concerning Paul and all the murdering he had done. I know this has been an issue with Freak.
Paul did deserve death more than any man.
1 Timothy 1:
15This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Paul was a Christian killer.

But keep in mind, God was about to cut Israel (the law) off as His spokes-nation and graft in the gentiles (grace). Paul deserved death under the judgment of law, but God forgave him as He brought life though forgiveness of grace. What a way to usher in the age of grace!

God did forgive certain people who deserved death. God has the right to do this, we as His creation, do not.

 

[BillyBob]

I liked it better when Freak was a commie. :sozo2:

 

[Lovejoy]

I liked it better when Freak was a commie. :sozo2:

Are you going to change your sig? If so, how will I find your posts?

 

[BillyBob]

I already changed it.

 

[Lovejoy]

:darwinsm: :BRAVO:

 

[Freak]

Freak,

During this evil age this restraint should be in force just as it was in past times.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

Yes, God has ordained the government to 'punish the evildoer." I'm coming to a crisis of belief in relation to what extent, what allowance the government has to put criminals to death. I believe the government is ordained of God to "restrain" evil. No doubt. My question is this: Does God ordain the government, in this dispensation, to put criminals to death?

For example, Jerry...

The Samaritan Woman in John 4 was guilty of adultery and yet Jesus restored her and did not call for her to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.

You may, say, Freak, the governing authorities were not putting those guilty of adultery to death. So, does God extend mercy when the government refuses to put those guilty of captial crimes to death? And only does He?

The Apostle Paul was a murderer and yet when Jesus encountered him He did not command Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.

You may, say, Freak, the governing authorities were not putting those guilty of killing of Christians (as they were endorsing it) to death. So, does God extend mercy when the government refuses to put those guilty of captial crimes to death? And only does He?

The Christians in Corinth (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) who were formerly "sexually immoral," "idolaters," "adulterers," "male prostitutes," and "homosexual offenders"--all of which were capital offences in the Old Testament, were not called upon the apostle Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.

You may, say, Freak, the governing authorities were not putting those guilty of homosexuality, idolatry, etc to death. So, does God extend mercy when the government refuses to put those guilty of captial crimes to death? And only does He?

I'm very open, NOW, to this discussion, as God has been dealing with me on this very issue. I can see maybe God is extending mercy when a government is NOT utilizing the death penalty, as it should. But God's design, however, is for the governments to put to death those guilty of captial crimes to restrain, to convict, and to lead to Jesus.

 

[Freak]

Freak... first off... let me say.... excellent post! :up:

You have played a God given role to speak to my heart about this issue. A couple years ago you stated something that I believe God has used to touch my heart.

When God set aside Israel and ushered in grace through the apostle Paul He didn't "grace out" the crime and criminal consequences of thievery. God still expects that we punish the thief even in this dispensation of grace!

Yes, we should "punish' all evil. No question regardless what covenant we may live under.

In opposition to the death penalty you (Freak) have stated... "mercy triumphs over judgment".

Does mercy triumph over judgment when it comes to stealing? Should we show mercy upon the thief and not appropriately punish him? Of course not! God expects that we deal with the criminal element in a righteous way in any dispensation. We must not confuse God's covenants for salvation with God's criminal justice system.

Yes, we should 'punish" any evil doer. The question is the kind of penalty we should give to those under the New Covenant.

 

[Freak]

God did forgive certain people who deserved death. God has the right to do this, we as His creation, do not.

I thought, we should be like Christ in all manner. So when He extended mercy to those guilty of captial crimes should we not follow His example?

Yes, the government should "punish" but should not the punishment be redemptive not one that leads to death.

However, one could state that the death penalty for criminals is redemptive as it calls for the criminal to surrender to Jesus prior to being put to death. Thus, he/she finds redemption.

I fully understand that Biblical Law when employed can lead to Jesus and the death penalty could awaken sinners.

 

[Freak]

Posts like this aren't very common around here. It takes a lot of Christian maturity to submit such a post. :up:

I'm the first one to acknowledge that I may be, WRONG, in my current thinking on this subject. TOL has been used by God to open my eyes to this very issue.

I'll be honest, some of the information given on this topic is biblically sound and I look forward to seeing what the Lord will do in my life regarding this area.

 

[the Sibbie]

I have to be honest with everyone.

I may be wrong.

I know God has been dealing with my heart on this issue of the "death penalty." In fact, I even had a dream, last night, which prompted me to create this thread, that deals with this issue. The Law--as Paul stated-should be used to bring the unrighteous to Jesus. So, why not the death penalty-- as it was utilized under the Old Covenant. God really used this statement, by the Sibbie, to make me ponder the usefulness of the death penalty...

"If God is going to give them the Ultimate Everlasting Death Sentence, then execution is a highly appropriate way for the government to accurately represent God as His minister. Let law be their "tutor" to bring them to Christ. (See Galations 3:24)."

Powerful and true. The Law should be utilized to bring people to Jesus. I know when I proclaim the gospel I use the law as a reminder of the sinfulness of man. Why not use the law--the legitimacy of the death penalty--to awaken sinners? Besides, the Law provides a moral compass and restraint.

But, this is where I'm having the problem...

I just don't think the New Covenant---I have pointed to some examples--calls others to the death penalty. I see mercy truimphing over judgment. I just don't see the early church calling those guilty of the death penalty to the death penalty. Where is the fidelty to the truth. You would think the early church would have called those guilty of the captial crimes to surrender to the truth--the death penalty. However, this does not occur, rather you see redemption and grace.

I'm willing to be open to the Scriptures. I desire to be righteous in calling people to the truth. So, God has used TOL, specifically- the Sibbie and Knight (in the past) to touch my heart on this issue so i'm willing to be opened to the truth...

Wow! :up: I'm thrilled and humbled that you are beginning to see a difference! :banana:

I'd like to add that training and disciplining children helps them learn how to respect the authority of their parents, which in turn also teaches them to respect and take seriously the authority of the government. A government that appropriately disciplines it citizens, will in effect help mankind to take God and the consequences of sin seriously.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

My question is this: Does God ordain the government, in this dispensation, to put criminals to death?

When there is a change of dispensations that does not mean that all of the principles of God from a previous dispensation are thrown into the trash heap.As it says in the New Scofield Study Bible:

"Although the divine revealation unfolds progressively,the deposit of truth in earlier time-periods is not discarded,rather it is cumulative.Thus conscience (moral responsibility) is an abiding truth in human life,although it does not continue as a dispensation.Similarly,the saved of this present dispensation are 'not under law' as a specific test of obedience to divine revelation,yet the law remains an integral part of the Holy Scriptures which,to the redeemed,are profitable for 'instruction in righteousness'."(Note at Genesis 1:28).

Today the Christian is to obey the laws of the government because "the powers that be are ordained of God"(Ro.13:1).

And as the Scofield Bible says,"the highest function of government is the protection of human life,out of which arises the responsibility of captial punishment"*Note at Genesis 8:15).

Since the Lord has placed us under governments in order to protect human lfe it would seem unreasonable to suppose that now captial punishment has no place in government.After all,that protection was the main reason for human government in the first place.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Yes, we should 'punish" any evil doer. The question is the kind of penalty we should give to those under the New Covenant.

It profanes God when we allow capital criminals to live.

“And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?”

Paul tells us that God has delegated the authority to government to execute capital criminals...

Romans 13:3 For rulers (government) are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he (government) is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he (government) does not bear the sword in vain; (swords are not used for prodding people into prison cells) for he (government) is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

If Paul (the apostle of the "superior covenant" as you call it) knew that the death penalty was no longer in effect he certainly wouldn't have said...

Acts 25:11 “For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar.”


In Christ - Knight

 

[drbrumley]

It profanes God when we allow capital criminals to live.

“And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?”

Paul tells us that God has delegated the authority to government to execute capital criminals...

Romans 13:3 For rulers (government) are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he (government) is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he (government) does not bear the sword in vain; (swords are not used for prodding people into prison cells) for he (government) is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

If Paul (the apostle of the "superior covenant" as you call it) knew that the death penalty was no longer in effect he certainly wouldn't have said...

Acts 25:11 “For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar.”


In Christ - Knight

Positive rep points for this post.

 

[drbrumley]

I guess the thoughts will have to count being I cant give rep points to ya Knight.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I hope you don't mind if I make a few quick comments on this post directed at Jerry...

Yes, God has ordained the government to 'punish the evildoer." I'm coming to a crisis of belief in relation to what extent, what allowance the government has to put criminals to death. I believe the government is ordained of God to "restrain" evil. No doubt. My question is this: Does God ordain the government, in this dispensation, to put criminals to death?

Yes. See Romans 13:3 it couldn't be more clear.

For example, Jerry...

The Samaritan Woman in John 4 was guilty of adultery and yet Jesus restored her and did not call for her to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.

Freak, in your opinion at the time of this inceident in John 4 what dispensation (covenant) was in effect?

The Apostle Paul was a murderer and yet when Jesus encountered him He did not command Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.

God has often forgave murderers and adulterers in the old covenant and the new, we shouldn't confuse God's using certain people to accomplish certain tasks as object lessons in how we should govern.

You may, say, Freak, the governing authorities were not putting those guilty of killing of Christians (as they were endorsing it) to death. So, does God extend mercy when the government refuses to put those guilty of captial crimes to death? And only does He?

The Christians in Corinth (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) who were formerly "sexually immoral," "idolaters," "adulterers," "male prostitutes," and "homosexual offenders"--all of which were capital offences in the Old Testament, were not called upon the apostle Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.

Paul taught that it was the governments role to execute capital criminals see Romans 13:3.

You may, say, Freak, the governing authorities were not putting those guilty of homosexuality, idolatry, etc to death. So, does God extend mercy when the government refuses to put those guilty of captial crimes to death? And only does He?

The government was wicked then as it is wicked now.

Had the government been filling its proper role back then there wouldn't have been as many capital criminals as it seems there were.

I'm very open, NOW, to this discussion, as God has been dealing with me on this very issue. I can see maybe God is extending mercy when a government is NOT utilizing the death penalty, as it should. But God's design, however, is for the governments to put to death those guilty of captial crimes to restrain, to convict, and to lead to Jesus.

It is the death penalty itself that leads the capital criminal to God if done in a righteous way.

Think of the theif on the cross. At the very last moment he repented and God forgave him, the death penalty ended his earthly life but he gained eternal life in return.

 

[wholearmor]

I guess the thoughts will have to count being I cant give rep points to ya Knight.

Gotcha' covered, there, dr.