The Representative and Substitutionary Work of Christ on Our Behalf

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
REPRESENTATIVE: One who acts on anothers behalf as their agent.

SUBSTITUTE: One who takes the place of another.

Just as we were lost by a representative (Adam) so we are saved by a representative (Christ).

"Wherefore as by one man (Adam) sin entered the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12.

Adam was humanities representative. He was our first father. We all have Adam's genes and blood coursing through our veins. As Adam goes, so go we. We are all sinners with out works. We cannot become sinners. We are MADE sinners. "For as by one man's disobedience, many were MADE sinners" Romans 5:19. "Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" Psalm 51:5. There is nothing that we can do about our sinful condition. Man's sinful nature can be subdued but it cannot be eradicated. This is why Paul said, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23. This is the plight of man , he is born a sinner and he dies a sinner.

Some believe that man's fallen nature can be rehabilitated through the works of the law or through religion. This has proven to be false and actually promotes more sin, Romans 7:8. Others believe that man's fallen nature can be rehabilitated by the presence of the Holy Spirit. This has also proven to be false. Christians only have the "first fruits" or the down payment of the Holy Spirit, Romans 8:23. Just enough to make them a witness for Christ, but not enough to make them sinless. The Christian is a saint and a sinner at the same time. Romans chapter 7 is about Paul's struggle with sin.

If sinful man is to be saved salvation must come to him totally and completely outside of himself.

"For he has made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin: that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:21. Jesus as our substitute, took our place on the cross and bore our sins in his body and not our sins only, but the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. When Jesus died on the cross all of the old sinful Adamic race died with him, Romans 6:6. God now sees Jesus as the victorious savior of the world, Colossians 2:15. In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30 and made to sit in heavenly places in Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:6.

Jesus is God's new humanity. We become part of God's new humanity by being "In Christ" "Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creation: old things have passed away; behold all things have become new and all things are of God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ and has given us the ministry of reconciliation" 2 Corinthians 5:17, 18.

What does it mean to be "In Christ"? To be "In Christ" means that you are trusting in his righteousness and in his atonement for your sins, plus nothing. To be "In Christ" means that you have ceased from your own works and you are resting in his work for your salvation, Hebrews 4:10.

There is no room for Calvinism, Catholicism or any other religion in the Gospel. We are justified by faith alone because we are justified by Christ alone.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
pate

The Representative and Substitutionary Work of Christ on Our Behalf

You dont believe it, because you teach that Millions upon Millions for whom Christ was a Rep and Sub for , shall yet be cast into hell fire in unbelief for their sins Jn 8:24, hence making God punish them Twice for their sins, which makes God Unjust !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
REPRESENTATIVE: One who acts on anothers behalf as their agent.

SUBSTITUTE: One who takes the place of another.

Just as we were lost by a representative (Adam) so we are saved by a representative (Christ).

"Wherefore as by one man (Adam) sin entered the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12.

Adam was humanities representative. He was our first father. We all have Adam's genes and blood coursing through our veins. As Adam goes, so go we. We are all sinners with out works. We cannot become sinners. We are MADE sinners. "For as by one man's disobedience, many were MADE sinners" Romans 5:19. "Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" Psalm 51:5. There is nothing that we can do about our sinful condition. Man's sinful nature can be subdued but it cannot be eradicated. This is why Paul said, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23. This is the plight of man , he is born a sinner and he dies a sinner.

Some believe that man's fallen nature can be rehabilitated through the works of the law or through religion. This has proven to be false and actually promotes more sin, Romans 7:8. Others believe that man's fallen nature can be rehabilitated by the presence of the Holy Spirit. This has also proven to be false. Christians only have the "first fruits" or the down payment of the Holy Spirit, Romans 8:23. Just enough to make them a witness for Christ, but not enough to make them sinless. The Christian is a saint and a sinner at the same time. Romans chapter 7 is about Paul's struggle with sin.

If sinful man is to be saved salvation must come to him totally and completely outside of himself.

"For he has made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin: that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:21. Jesus as our substitute, took our place on the cross and bore our sins in his body and not our sins only, but the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. When Jesus died on the cross all of the old sinful Adamic race died with him, Romans 6:6. God now sees Jesus as the victorious savior of the world, Colossians 2:15. In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30 and made to sit in heavenly places in Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:6.

Jesus is God's new humanity. We become part of God's new humanity by being "In Christ" "Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creation: old things have passed away; behold all things have become new and all things are of God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ and has given us the ministry of reconciliation" 2 Corinthians 5:17, 18.

What does it mean to be "In Christ"? To be "In Christ" means that you are trusting in his righteousness and in his atonement for your sins, plus nothing. To be "In Christ" means that you have ceased from your own works and you are resting in his work for your salvation, Hebrews 4:10.

There is no room for Calvinism, Catholicism or any other religion in the Gospel. We are justified by faith alone because we are justified by Christ alone.

All of this equates to Salvation by works, by what a person does, it repudiates the Death of Christ !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
pate

Just as we were lost by a representative (Adam) so we are saved by a representative (Christ).

Pate doesnt believe this statement, because he teaches that millions upon millions whom Christ Represented end up lost in their sins in unbelief ! He doesnt believe or understand his own comment !
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
pate



Pate doesnt believe this statement, because he teaches that millions upon millions whom Christ Represented end up lost in their sins in unbelief ! He doesnt believe or understand his own comment !


You hate Christ and his Gospel.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
You don't believe that comment!

You are always telling people what they believe or don't believe. You sound like you are about 15 years old.

To be a Calvinist or to believe the doctrines of Calvinism, you have to hate Christ and his Gospel.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
You are always telling people what they believe or don't believe. You sound like you are about 15 years old.

To be a Calvinist or to believe the doctrines of Calvinism, you have to hate Christ and his Gospel.

You tell me I don't believe, so we even!
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
This is the plight of man , he is born a sinner and he dies a sinner.

Yes, that's a good point and Paul agrees.

Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4 NKJV)

For he who has died has been freed from sin. (Romans 6:7 NKJV)​
 

beloved57

Well-known member
You don't believe in Christ and his Gospel, that is for sure.

You have embraced the doctrines of a heretic.

Ok then I can call you an unbeliever ! Anyone like you who doesnt believe the Gospel is an unbeliever, and doesnt believe the scriptures !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Yes, that's a good point and Paul agrees.

Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4 NKJV)

For he who has died has been freed from sin. (Romans 6:7 NKJV)​

That applies to anyone Christ has died for, they died with Christ as being in Union with Him when He died for them, and they are freed from sin even while they are Unbelievers and enemies !
 

daqq

Well-known member
What does it mean to be "In Christ"? To be "In Christ" means that you are trusting in his righteousness and in his atonement for your sins, plus nothing. To be "In Christ" means that you have ceased from your own works and you are resting in his work for your salvation, Hebrews 4:10.

The "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31 is quoted extensively and verbatim in Hebrews 8:8-12. However, when one actually goes to Jeremiah and reads what the new covenant actually says, it does not teach what you teach in your OP. In fact the parable of sour grapes refers to the transgression of Adam, and Paul knows this so it is not him who is wrong but rather that you and your teachers have misunderstood and misapplied the words of Paul because you care not to study Torah and Prophets.

Jeremiah 31:27-31 KJV
27. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
29. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


The same new covenant language shows up again in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 18:1-4 KJV
1. The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
2. What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3. As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


In the new covenant you can no longer blame your sins and transgressions on Adam: every man shall die for his own sins according to the Scripture. When you say that Adam is the cause for your sinful nature you are essentially repeating the parable, "The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge", (and therefore you break the Scripture and do not understand the new covenant). But we have the Testimony of Yeshua, and it has been confirmed and sealed by the Father from above, and thanks be to Messiah and his Testimony, for we know that physical death profits nothing because the flesh profits nothing in the doctrine of the Master. You therefore must die or you are not in Messiah so much as you imagine yourself to be. Cut off those "brute beasts", (and the seed of beast from Jeremiah 31:27) from among your own members: mortify your own members of your own household which are upon your own earth, (every man is a house with his lands) mortify the deeds of the body as Paul says. You are required to cut off sin from your own household as Yeshua commands or you cannot be his disciple. If you claim you are only a "disciple of Paul" then Paul disagrees with you because he is a disciple of Yeshua and clearly states that he teaches the commandments of the Master.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
The "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31 is quoted extensively and verbatim in Hebrews 8:8-12. However, when one actually goes to Jeremiah and reads what the new covenant actually says, it does not teach what you teach in your OP. In fact the parable of sour grapes refers to the transgression of Adam, and Paul knows this so it is not him who is wrong but rather that you and your teachers have misunderstood and misapplied the words of Paul because you care not to study Torah and Prophets.

Jeremiah 31:27-31 KJV
27. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
29. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


The same new covenant language shows up again in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 18:1-4 KJV
1. The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
2. What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3. As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


In the new covenant you can no longer blame your sins and transgressions on Adam: every man shall die for his own sins according to the Scripture. When you say that Adam is the cause for your sinful nature you are essentially repeating the parable, "The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge", (and therefore you break the Scripture and do not understand the new covenant). But we have the Testimony of Yeshua, and it has been confirmed and sealed by the Father from above, and thanks be to Messiah and his Testimony, for we know that physical death profits nothing because the flesh profits nothing in the doctrine of the Master. You therefore must die or you are not in Messiah so much as you imagine yourself to be. Cut off those "brute beasts", (and the seed of beast from Jeremiah 31:27) from among your own members: mortify your own members of your own household which are upon your own earth, (every man is a house with his lands) mortify the deeds of the body as Paul says. You are required to cut off sin from your own household as Yeshua commands or you cannot be his disciple. If you claim you are only a "disciple of Paul" then Paul disagrees with you because he is a disciple of Yeshua and clearly states that he teaches the commandments of the Master.

Another Other has spoken.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
You are always telling people what they believe or don't believe. You sound like you are about 15 years old.

To be a Calvinist or to believe the doctrines of Calvinism, you have to hate Christ and his Gospel.

According to B57, only he and Nanja are "real" Christians.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
The "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31 is quoted extensively and verbatim in Hebrews 8:8-12. However, when one actually goes to Jeremiah and reads what the new covenant actually says, it does not teach what you teach in your OP. In fact the parable of sour grapes refers to the transgression of Adam, and Paul knows this so it is not him who is wrong but rather that you and your teachers have misunderstood and misapplied the words of Paul because you care not to study Torah and Prophets.

Jeremiah 31:27-31 KJV
27. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
29. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


The same new covenant language shows up again in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 18:1-4 KJV
1. The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
2. What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3. As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


In the new covenant you can no longer blame your sins and transgressions on Adam: every man shall die for his own sins according to the Scripture. When you say that Adam is the cause for your sinful nature you are essentially repeating the parable, "The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge", (and therefore you break the Scripture and do not understand the new covenant). But we have the Testimony of Yeshua, and it has been confirmed and sealed by the Father from above, and thanks be to Messiah and his Testimony, for we know that physical death profits nothing because the flesh profits nothing in the doctrine of the Master. You therefore must die or you are not in Messiah so much as you imagine yourself to be. Cut off those "brute beasts", (and the seed of beast from Jeremiah 31:27) from among your own members: mortify your own members of your own household which are upon your own earth, (every man is a house with his lands) mortify the deeds of the body as Paul says. You are required to cut off sin from your own household as Yeshua commands or you cannot be his disciple. If you claim you are only a "disciple of Paul" then Paul disagrees with you because he is a disciple of Yeshua and clearly states that he teaches the commandments of the Master.

Jeremiah was written under the law, so was Ezekiel.

Those books and all of the Old Testament books are nothing but history now.

Trying to make doctrine out of the Old Testament is foolishness.

The New Covenant is Jesus Christ himself.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man comes to the Father but by me" John 14:6. That is your new Covenant.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Jeremiah was written under the law, so was Ezekiel.

Those books and all of the Old Testament books are nothing but history now.

Trying to make doctrine out of the Old Testament is foolishness.

The New Covenant is Jesus Christ himself.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man comes to the Father but by me" John 14:6. That is your new Covenant.

Both Jer and Ezekiel wrote of and believed in Christ ! Lk 24:44-45

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

The Prophets Jer and Ezk Preached the same Gospel Paul Preached which was according to the scriptures 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

You dont know what you are talking about, you shouldnt even be trying to teach the Gospel ! Your condemnation is going to be Greater ! James 3:1

My brethren, be not many masters/or instructors, teachers, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Both Jer and Ezekiel wrote of and believed in Christ ! Lk 24:44-45

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

The Prophets Jer and Ezk Preached the same Gospel Paul Preached which was according to the scriptures 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

You dont know what you are talking about, you shouldnt even be trying to teach the Gospel ! Your condemnation is going to be Greater ! James 3:1

My brethren, be not many masters/or instructors, teachers, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

Jesus is the new and living way.

The Old Testament is just what it is..."OLD".

Paul said, "Old things have passed away; behold all things have become new" 2 Corinthians 5:17.

The old has been crucified with Christ.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Jesus is the new and living way.

The Old Testament is just what it is..."OLD".

Paul said, "Old things have passed away; behold all things have become new" 2 Corinthians 5:17.

The old has been crucified with Christ.

The OT Prophets set forth the same Gospel, they believed the same Gospel !

You dont even believe the Gospel !
 
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