ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[glorydaz]

Where does scripture tell us that Adam was made spiritually alive?

I think you've asked a question that none can answer without some serious explaining....even as far as saying what they mean by being spiritually alive.

And where does scripture tell us that Adam died spiritually?

Again, it's assumed by a verse that some interpret one way and others another.

And where does scripture tell us that Adam was made spiritually alive again after he fell, or was Adam just a sunk ship?

I see lots of opinions and supposition, but what clear verses are there?

 

[dodge]

glorydaz;4982475]Adam was created in the image of God and he sinned.
There goes your argument right out the window.

Adam being created in God's image did NOT have to disobey God he chose to....big difference because ever since man has no choice he starts off in sin , which Adam didn't.

Being created in the image of God does not mean man as created with God's nature. I don't know where you get that idea.

SO you believe there is sin in God's image ? I don't.

AGAIN: Adam's children were born in Adam's image and "likeness" sin nature and all. Not much choice to be made with a sin nature now is there ?

 

[glorydaz]

You are sure putting a lot of words in my mouth that I do NOT believe nor have ever said. YOU are assuming and believing I believe what I do NOT.

Fact 1 In Adam all die we are his progeny and inherited both of his deaths physical and spiritual.

That's not a fact....it's an opinion.

 

[dodge]

glorydaz;4982522]I think you've asked a question that none can answer without some serious explaining....even as far as saying what they mean by being spiritually alive.

Again, it's assumed by a verse that some interpret one way and others another.

I see lots of opinions and supposition, but what clear verses are there?

It is there you just cannot see it.

And God prepared clothes of animal skin for Adam and Eve.

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.

God took care of Adam and Eve's disobedience. COMPARE the offerings of Cain and Able.

Cain's offering was bloodless=rejected by God

Able's offering blood was shed= God accepted Able's offering.

 

[Angel4Truth]

That's not a fact....it's an opinion.

yes and one that is easily disproven by scripture.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Deuteronomy 24:16
"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.


Which proves we dont bear the guilt of adam. What we bear from adam on is the repercussions of sin being in the world. (its fallen state due to sin compounding)

Example, how a child could bear a lifetime condition because of its mother doing drugs during pregnancy.

The mothers sins, visits the child, but the child is not held responsible (guilt) for the mothers sins.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

To which Christians are you making reference?

I do not know any Christians who do not try to do their best to obey what God says.

Madists.

LA

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are sure putting a lot of words in my mouth that I do NOT believe nor have ever said.

You cannot even understand what you are saying.

Let us look at this verse again:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

You do realize that the death referred to in this verse is referring to a spiritual death. You also realize that those who are spoken of as dying spiritually are first alive. Right?

Then you say that those same people were not alive spiritually until they believed. Right?

Then if you are right then those same people who are alive spiritually because they believed die spiritually when they sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

You are in a state of total confusion.

 

[dodge]

That's not a fact....it's an opinion.

Here is a scripture to PROVE what I believe ! Do you have any scripture to PROVE what you believe ?

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Madists.

Quote just one in the MAD camp who says that we are not to obey God.

 

[dodge]

You cannot even understand what you are saying.

Let us look at this verse again:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

You do realize that the death referred to in this verse is referring to a spiritual death. You also realize that those who are spoken of as dying spiritually are first alive. Right?

Then you say that those same people were not alive spiritually until they believed. Right?

Then if you are right then those same people who are alive spiritually because they believed die spiritually when they sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

You are in a state of total confusion.

Nope, YOU are in denial of what Jesus taught in more places than one.

Jesus said, " unless they believe Moses and the Prophets NEITHER will they be persuaded those one rise from the dead. I believe I will stay with what Jesus taught.

 

[Tambora]

"ALL OUR righteousness is as filthy rags...comes SHORT of the glory of God" no matter how wonderful we are.

Yeppers.

You can glory about your works before men, but not before GOD.
Not even the righteous Abraham, father of the faithful, could boast before GOD of his own works.

Romans 4:2-6 KJV
(2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
(3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

 

[musterion]

Paul commands obedience to Christ. I've never met a MAD who denies that in any way.

 

[Tambora]

It doesn't.

One would think that all those that claim it would like to have some scripture to back up that theory.
But they don't.
That's got to stick in their craw a bit.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Quote just one in the MAD camp who says that we are not to obey God.

John W can kill 600 men and it will not affect his salvation according to him.

and the Madists just hate any talk of obedience being necessary to enter the Kingdom of God.

why do they argue against GT so much about it?

The answer is that they think faith requires no action whatever on their part.

Read James and Hebrews ch 11 which Madists say do not apply to them along with any non Paul books of the Bible.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


LA

 

[glorydaz]

Adam being created in God's image did NOT have to disobey God he chose to....big difference because ever since man has no choice he starts off in sin , which Adam didn't.

It's a lie that man has no ability to choose. We have the exact same ability to choose as Adam had. He chose wrongly, just as we do. Why? Because having been created in a body of flesh, with a free will, we are susceptible to lusts of the flesh, eyes, and pride of life. God gave Adam one simple command, and he couldn't obey it. Why you keep insisting he could choose while we can't is just plain ridiculous.

SO you believe there is sin in God's image ? I don't.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Adam sinned while in the image of God. We sin while in the image of God. Adam was made in the image of God....he could reason (unlike the animals), he was relational (capable of having a loving relationship), he could make choice, not based on instinct but based on facts and desires. Man could never have the same NATURE (divine) as God has, so being made in God's image has nothing to do with some "sin nature".

AGAIN: Adam's children were born in Adam's image and "likeness" sin nature and all. Not much choice to be made with a sin nature now is there ?

Clearly not for someone who has been so indoctrinated they can't even consider proofs to the contrary. God told Noah man was made in the image of God, and our Lord, himself, was made in the likeness of man.

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:​

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Paul commands obedience to Christ. I've never met a MAD who denies that in any way.

What a joke.

You lie about my heart on a constant basis and judge like a Pharisee.

You are a muck raker who cares nothing for anything but your doctrines.

Why start a thread about Meshak if you are so pure and obedient to Christ.

LA

 

[musterion]

John W can kill 600 men and it will not affect his salvation according to him.

That bothered me when I first got here because I totally missed his point.

His point was about forgiveness of all sins and justification from sin. So what he said is 100% true, according to Paul.

Does that mean JohnW intends to murder 1 man or 600? No. He was just making a point that the believer is beyond God's condemnation, BY GOD'S DECREE IN CHRIST.

and the Madists just hate any talk of obedience being necessary to enter the Kingdom of God.

Paul says we're already seated in the heavenlies with Christ. We obey out of love, not like you do, out of "...or else."

why do they argue against GT so much about it?

Because you two are identical.

The answer is that they think faith requires no action whatever on their part.

What do you mean 'require'? For salvation? For justification? Paul says that is completely apart from any works which WE have done, but by grace through faith in what Christ did FOR us.

Why do you argue with Paul?

Why do you hate Paul like the Meshak people do?

Read James and Hebrews ch 11 which Madists say do not apply to them along with any non Paul books of the Bible.

Look who James addresses in the opening. Look who the entire book of Hebrews addresses. Duh.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


LA

He wasn't talking to you but since you think he was, also remember that since you are so eager to put yourself (and others) under Law, if you keep every point (which you don't) but trip up on JUST ONE, you've broken it all and will be cast into the Lake of Fire because there will remain no other sacrifice to make up for your failure. Christ died ONCE to redeem us all from the curse of Law. When you place yourself back under it you willingly take that curse back, and your blood is on your own head (Gal 1:8-9).

 

[Tambora]

When he was created in God's image.

And yet that says nothing about Adam being spiritually alive or dead.

God asked Adam ,"have you done that which I told you not to do" ?

And yet that says nothing about Adam being spiritually alive or dead.

And God prepared a skin of clothes to clothe Adam and Eve.....blood was shed and without the shedding of blood their is no remission of sin.

Not only does that not mention blood at all, but it also says nothing about Adam being spiritually alive or dead.

Compare Able's offering and Cain's offering.

Not one word in all that that tells us Adam was spiritually alive or dead.

 

[Tambora]

That bothered me when I first got here because I totally missed his point.

His point was about forgiveness of all sins and justification from sin. So what he said is 100% true, according to Paul.

Does that mean JohnW intends to murder 1 man or 600? No. He was just making a point that the believer is beyond God's condemnation, BY GOD'S DECREE IN CHRIST.

Yeppers.
Some folks just cannot believe that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ payed the whole price for ALL your sin.
The perfect obedience and righteousness of Christ and His precious blood shed was just not enough to cut the mustard in their eyes.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

That bothered me when I first got here because I totally missed his point.

His point was about forgiveness of all sins and justification from sin. So what he said is 100% true, according to Paul.

Does that mean JohnW intends to murder 1 man or 600? No. He was just making a point that the believer is beyond God's condemnation, BY GOD'S DECREE IN CHRIST.

You disregard the warnings of Christ and His Apostles who all preached the same thing.

1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Paul says we're already seated in the heavenlies with Christ. We obey out of love, not like you do, out of "...or else."

You send me to hell quite often in your supposed "love".

What do you mean 'require'? For salvation? For justification? Paul says that is completely apart from any works which WE have done, but by grace through faith in what Christ did FOR us.

Why do you argue with Paul?

Why do you hate Paul like the Meshak people do?

You lie about what Christ and His Apostles taught, and about me again.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Look who James addresses in the opening. Look who the entire book of Hebrews addresses. Duh.



He wasn't talking to you but since you think he was, also remember that since you are so eager to put yourself (and others) under Law, if you keep every point (which you don't) but trip up on JUST ONE, you've broken it all and will be cast into the Lake of Fire because there will remain no other sacrifice to make up for your failure. Christ died ONCE to redeem us all from the curse of Law. When you place yourself back under it you willingly take that curse back, and your blood is on your own head (Gal 1:8-9).

Christ taught the royal law of God, not the OT covenant, which you claim.

again you try to justify your disobedience of the words of Christ and His Apostles.--

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

LA