ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

glorydaz

Well-known member
The word spirit in that passage lacks the definite article. Thus in keeping with Paul and his teachings about the flesh vs the spirit it is our newborn human spirit that we are to be walking in. Something glorybabze didn't learn in Sunday school.


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Thank the Lord I didn't go to Sunday school if that's what they taught you. The Spirit of God produces the fruit in us. It's His and comes from Him, but I understand how man would like to claim it as his own. Man is famous for taking credit for what God has freely given.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Hello [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] ,

Could you please look this over for me? It is simply to prevent attack on the direction we are headed. Do you affirm what I have written?

You bring up some good points. I cannot understand why anyone would cling to the myth of "Original Sin" after they have been shown that a person dies spiritualy as a result of their own sin and not because Adam's spiritual death has been imputed to all of his descendants. It's almost like they are deer who have been caught in the headlights.

One of the most frequent arguments used by those who support the teaching of Original Sin is that there is almost a unanimous opinion within the church that it true so it must be true. The teaching of Original Sin in the church has become one of the things "that cannot be spoken against."
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
If you think that children are not fallen, that they have spiritual life and are in union with God then it is plain you have not worked with them for any length of time. Most of my various careers was spent working with children an I assure you they do not naturally evidence the fruit of the Spirit. They have to be "trained" before they behave. A child who was unfallen (like Jesus) would know instinctively what to do because their soul would be influenced by the Holy Spirit. I have known children, even small children, that exhibited behavior and attitudes that can only be described as devilish.

Well, I have worked around children, including some very disturbed and abused children. You're wrong when you say they are "fallen". What you're seeing in young children is not sin, which is disobedience to God. First they have to know what good and evil are...not just what a parent might tell them. They have to have a conviction from their own conscience. We don't read how Jesus acted as a two year old, but you can rest assured he was "fully human", with a human nature like we all have.

Heb. 2:16-17KJV For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.​
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
You bring up some good points. I cannot understand why anyone would cling to the myth of "Original Sin" after they have been shown that a person dies spiritualy as a result of their own sin and not because Adam's spiritual death has been imputed to all of his descendants. It's almost like they are deer who have been caught in the headlights.

One of the most frequent arguments used by those who support the teaching of Original Sin is that there is almost a unanimous opinion within the church that it true so it must be true. The teaching of Original Sin in the church has become one of the things "that cannot be spoken against."

Which is odd because there are at least three doctrines on it and each refutes the other. And, from what I'm hearing, people have their own understanding of the doctrine with exceptions (different exceptions from different people). But, oddest of all, the Bible never comes out plainly, anywhere, and proclaims it. A verse here and there taken out of context....
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
The key is in your "twice dead" verse that you quoted. To be once dead "spiritually"... one would have to have "died" spiritually. To become "twice dead" (Jd. 1:12) spiritually... one would have to live... die ... become regenerated and then die again. We see this in the Pharisees... they had knowledge of God, but chose pride over Him. This made them distorted and twice dead...

This is enunciated in this parable...

Matthew 12:43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. (What else could this be then a "regenerated soul"?) 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”​

This correlates with this verse... (2 Pt. 2:21)

Judas is an example of this... not by grace conditions... as the DBR wasn't dispensed yet... but that he was in the presence of God and rejected Him to His face. Literally... with a kiss.

As this happens to all, twice I might add, then that means we are a wicked generation.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
QUESTION for the general public:

Did the law have a specific remedy/sacrifice for Adam's sin, apart from the individual sins of the people?
We know there were sacrifices for the sins the people themselves committed, but was there any to atone for Adam's sin?

None that I know of. I've never even seen it mentioned openly.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Since men die spiritually as a result of their own sin (Ro.5:12) then it is obvious that before they sin they are spiritually alive. And this truth is made plain by what Paul says in the following verse about his salvation:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin
means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis
means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit." If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit.

Joseph Henry Thayer says that the Greek word translated regenerartion "denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renvation" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When a person is born again of the Spirit that means that he is restored back his pristine state of previously being born of the spirit. That means that all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

I do not think any of the lexicographers and theologians you are citing were saying we are re-born into the spiritual state we were in as children. One thing that is universally true of children is that they are self-centered. If children came already united to the Holy Spirit they would naturally exhibit the fruit of the Spirit like patience and self-control instead of having to be taught those virtues by their parents. This is why Jesus was different than all others. He was born of the Holy Spirit and was called the Son of God rather than a son of Adam. The unusual circumstances of His birth is what qualified Him to be the redeemer.

I cannot think of any theologian in the past who claimed that children walk in the Spirit. This is wholly your invention. It is true that children are naive and naturally trusting and so are models for unconditional faith. Being innocent, children are not accountable for their actions but this does not mean their actions are right or rightly motivated, just that they are not yet culpable. This is why the "foolishness that is bound in the heart of a child must be driven out by the rod of discipline. If you believe getting them to understand is enough to change their ways then you are even more naive than I thought. If they were spiritually motivated disciplining would be unnecessary. The "pristine" state of spiritual perfection cannot be found in childhood but in man as he was originally created.

Your idea is pure fantasy and naive idealism. Personally, I do not remember having an unselfish nature when I was four and five. Much of I remember reveals me to be very self-centered (albeit naively so), prone to anger and even occasional tantrums. I certainly did not exhibit unconditional love - not to my friends, my older brother and certainly not to my mother. I have raised three children and have taught or counseled many more over the years. I want to know where I can find these unfallen children. It would be so easy to teach a classroom FULL of them. Hey, I know of a way to test your theology - become a substitute teacher for kindergarten - every day for about six months. It is easy Jerry. When they misbehave just show them a scripture and they will change without argument.

Children are driven, one might even say, dominated by their emotions and desires. They are self-willed. How many children would refuse candy or some other delight for the altruistic reason that it is not good for them or just out of a sense of duty that they should obey their parents. In development "I should" is preceded by "I want." One way to enrage them is to not give them what they want or to take away what they have. If they were ruled by the Spirit they would have self-control and patience. No, this neo-theology does not hold water in the Bible or in experience.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Well, I have worked around children, including some very disturbed and abused children. You're wrong when you say they are "fallen". What you're seeing in young children is not sin, which is disobedience to God. First they have to know what good and evil are...not just what a parent might tell them. They have to have a conviction from their own conscience. We don't read how Jesus acted as a two year old, but you can rest assured he was "fully human", with a human nature like we all have.

Heb. 2:16-17KJV For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.​

I have worked with disturbed and needy children also. If you notice, I did not say that children were sinful. To be sinful you have to make choices against the witness of moral conscience. Children who lack that are not culpable. This does not mean they exhibit the fruit of the spirit including such characteristics as patience, self-control and unselfish love. Children are self-centered. They are because they did not have not experienced an ongoing consciousness of God since conception. Children experience emotions and can think and both of these attributes must be trained by their parents. If they were naturally led of the Holy Spirit this would not be necessary.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I do not think any of the lexicographers and theologians you are citing were saying we are re-born into the spiritual state we were in as children.

All I did was to give the definition which the Greek expert I cited gave for the Greek word translated "regeneration." And I used that meaning to help us understand what Paul was saying at Titus 3:5.

And I noticed that you didn't even attempt to refute anything which I said. Are you under the impression that Joseph Henry Thayer was mistaken about the definitions which he gave for those Greek words? Or do you think that my conclusion was wrong and you can point out an error in my reasoning?

You must have a reason why you think that what I said in my post about the meaning of Titus 3:5 is in error. What is that reason?
 

Shasta

Well-known member
The word spirit in that passage lacks the definite article. Thus in keeping with Paul and his teachings about the flesh vs the spirit it is our newborn human spirit that we are to be walking in. Something glorybabze didn't learn in Sunday school.


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The definite article theory proposed originally by Bullinger is that the LACK of an article changes the meaning of the noun. However, this was simply not the case in First Century Koine Greek. In Luke 2:14 for instance, the word God does not have an article. Should the verse be translated "Glory in the highest to a God?" But let us look at a few scriptures in which the word "spirit" is used. The presence or absence of an article does not necessarily make any difference in the meaning of the word:

At Christ’s baptism the word Spirit has a definite article in Matthew 3:16 but lacks an article in Luke 3:22 In both instances the reference is to the Holy Spirit of God. Likewise, when referring to the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost the definite article is used in John 7:39 but omitted in Acts 1:5. The inclusion or omission of the definite article makes no difference in the meaning. Bullinger made that principle up against the consensus of all the translators in order to support his particular doctrines.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
All I did was to give the definition which the Greek expert I cited gave for the Greek word translated "regeneration." And I used that meaning to help us understand what Paul was saying at Titus 3:5.

And I noticed that you didn't even attempt to refute anything which I said. Are you under the impression that Joseph Henry Thayer was mistaken about the definitions which he gave for those Greek words? Or do you think that my conclusion was wrong and you can point out an error in my reasoning?

You must have a reason why you think that what I said in my post about the meaning of Titus 3:5 is in error. What is that reason?

You did more than just cite a definition. You said it applies to returning a person to their childhood mentality as if that were the same as transforming them into a spiritually new creation. There is nothing "new" about reverting to a time when we were controlled my emotions and desires (however innocent that experience was). It is up to you to explain why you say things.

I notice that again you refuse to address the points I have made in rebuttal of your brand new doctrine.
 
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intojoy

BANNED
Banned
Intojoy ... I don't know who you are... but I know you believe in grace. So I will continue to casually minimize my responses towards you. Until you demonstrate a more comprehensive use of scripture and your purpose in opening dialogue... i'm going to remain polite and reserved towards you.

This is my opinion on the matter.

Send me a check


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intojoy

BANNED
Banned
Thank the Lord I didn't go to Sunday school if that's what they taught you. The Spirit of God produces the fruit in us. It's His and comes from Him, but I understand how man would like to claim it as his own. Man is famous for taking credit for what God has freely given.

You're under educated. And do not appreciate what a gift God has given you. We live and are empowered by the Spirit of God yet we are not zombies that are incapable of doing acts of love. By placing the fruit of the spirit as being the fruit of the Holy Spirit you are denying that when you sin it is your flesh. You have both my little lass, a newborn spirit and the flesh. When you sin, that's your flesh. When you're loving (unlike while reading this hehe) you're walking in your new born human spirit.

Selah


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intojoy

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Banned
The definite article theory proposed originally by Bullinger is that the LACK of an article changes the meaning of the noun. However, this was simply not the case in First Century Koine Greek. In Luke 2:14 for instance, the word God does not have an article. Should the verse be translated "Glory in the highest to a God?" But let us look at a few scriptures in which the word "spirit" is used. The presence or absence of an article does not necessarily make any difference in the meaning of the word:

At Christ’s baptism the word Spirit has a definite article in Matthew 3:16 but lacks an article in Luke 3:22 In both instances the reference is to the Holy Spirit of God. Likewise, when referring to the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost the definite article is used in John 7:39 but omitted in Acts 1:5. The inclusion or omission of the definite article makes no difference in the meaning. Bullinger made that principle up against the consensus of all the translators in order to support his particular doctrines.

Like you said "doesn't necessarily"
However, if you take Paul's teaching in Romans into consideration then it is easy to see that Paul is again contrasting the spirit we all have in Christ with the flesh we still have. The battle is not between the flesh and the Holy Spirit because that is not even a match. The battle is between our new nature known as the "newborn human spirit" and the old nature called the "flesh" or the "sin nature" little buddy.


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Danoh

New member
The definite article theory proposed originally by Bullinger is that the LACK of an article changes the meaning of the noun. However, this was simply not the case in First Century Koine Greek. In Luke 2:14 for instance, the word God does not have an article. Should the verse be translated "Glory in the highest to a God?" But let us look at a few scriptures in which the word "spirit" is used. The presence or absence of an article does not necessarily make any difference in the meaning of the word:

At Christ’s baptism the word Spirit has a definite article in Matthew 3:16 but lacks an article in Luke 3:22 In both instances the reference is to the Holy Spirit of God. Likewise, when referring to the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost the definite article is used in John 7:39 but omitted in Acts 1:5. The inclusion or omission of the definite article makes no difference in the meaning. Bullinger made that principle up against the consensus of all the translators in order to support his particular doctrines.

Some thoughts, shasta...

What I have found over the years is that...

Where any one passage affirming, or based on a particular doctrine, contains additional words as additional information...

...including, but not limited to, a definite article...

...but another passage does not contain the additional wording, definite article, etc....

...one of the two determines the sense intended by the other.

My own experience with that over the years is that the former of those two sheds further light on the intended sense or meaning of the latter one, and is therefore the preferred intended sense of the two.

And there are many issues; not just those two.

As when you find the issue, for example, of two different definite articles found being used for a similar word and or expression.

As in wording such as "a dispensation" and "the dispensation."

In which case, which of the two is found used more often, is what determines which of the two is the intended sense of both, despite their different definite article.

And there is also the issue of synonyms - of two different words used within a similar context.

Though the two words might differ - even in their normal use, nevertheless, where they are found being used, and in light of what is being talked about when they are then brought up, gives them their intended sense, both in that particular context, and any similar one.

Case in point, 1 Cor. 12's "dividing to every man severally as he will" and 2 Tim. 2's "of these things put them in remembrance...rightly dividing the word of truth..."

In both places, the context is similar - it is the issue of dispensing or doling out a thing to others.

As a result, in the Early Modern English of the KJV, the same word "dividing" was used as a translation for two different words in the original language (the Greek) of both those passages.

Though the words in the original language differed, the intended sense or meaning, had been the same in both passages, being that the context of both - giving, dispensing, or doling out a thing to others - is the same.

When things like all the above, run smack into the "what makes sense to me" of far too many, such have problems with it.

Due to their ignorance of these kinds of principles.

And due their arriving at their own "makes sense to me" based ideas, given their ignorance of these kinds of principles.

The over reliance on the ever endless books "about" by men, that I am ever giving, say, IP, a hard time about, is in light of my awareness of the above kinds of issues.

A lot of your posts on THIS THREAD, shasta, and Nang's and Lon's on THIS THREAD also, are sound.

Not surprisingly; in their conclusions having been based on their having obviously followed the above kinds of principles, whether consciously aware of such principles, or not.
 

Danoh

New member
Well, one man's garbage is another man's treasure. ;)

Thanks for that.

I mean, I find it rewarding to reflect on the dynamic behind words like yours there.

You are obviously blind to what your very words there actually prove - the doctrine of original sin and of the fact that its' presence is not eradicated at salvation.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

But your ignorance on this, is just as obviously due to your refusal to consider you might be wrong.

Because you too often go by the exact same error of far too many - your "what makes sense to me."

Your intended insult not only proving your obvious ignorance of the obvious once more, as to the existence of indwelling sin...

...but challenging me in the Lord, to be willing to look beyond your obvious fleshly mind's intended wisdom of this world attempt at a payback, that I might learn from the very dynamic you have just now displayed is at work in you.

I can rejoice in said learning.

And I can rejoice in the opportunity you have just given me - to obey the law of Christ and forgive you! Amen!

Not due to any earned merit on your part, but rather, even as God, for Christ's sake forgave me - when His forgiveness was the last thing I deserved.

Matchless Grace - Indeed!

Rom. 5:8.
 
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