The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Catholicious]

Re: Re: Re: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!

Re: Re: Re: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!

Originally posted by Freak
You haven't read much of the Scriptures have you? Water is not by the basis we obtain justification.

"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."

"The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith."

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand."

"Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring-"

Need I continue?

Freak,

I do read scripture. Baptism is to the New Covenant as circumcision was to the old in terms of justifying one before GOD.

"Faith" often causes disputes between Catholics and Protestants so please define your understanding of "faith". From my perspective, just having faith as in "faith alone" [sola fide] is not enough.

I do apologize for jumping in way late in the game on this post [did not realize how long this post is] in that much of this probably has been covered already. Peace to you.

 

[c.moore]

Kevin and Francisco

I am really trying hard to study how you think water baptism saves and not faith saves.

I am now studying this link, and maybe you can tell me that this is your theory of baptism or not please.

it has alot of very good examples that why I used this link to gain understand in my getting.

http://www.baptism.org/BAPTISM.htm

thank you

God Bless

 

[Kevin]

You've got to be kidding...

You've got to be kidding...

c.moore,

I am really trying hard to study how you think water baptism saves and not faith saves.

Not once have I seen Francisco or myself say that faith doesn't save. I'm seriously wondering if you are fully comprehending what we are saying, and I don't mean that as a personal insult.

I mean, are HOW many times throughout this thread have I said that the faith that saves is the faith that obeys? Many times. Is that not saying that faith saves us? We just disagree over what type of faith saves. Just look at my recent exchanges with Clete Pfiefer, which I speak about the type of faith that justifies us, which makes us righteous before God.

You just don't get what we are saying... no matter how hard we try to break it down to you. To say that we believe that water baptism saves and not faith, is down right rediculous, because they go hand in hand. HOW many times have I used Mark 16:16 against you... which includes BELIEF for salvation? Please.... :down:

 

[Freak]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!

Originally posted by Catholicious
Freak,

From my perspective, just having faith as in "faith alone" [sola fide] is not enough.

Yes, you need to have faith in a person--the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith in faith will not save you.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by c.moore

Hello Francisco

I am really trying hard to study how you think water baptism saves and not faith saves.

I am now studying this link, and maybe you can tell me that this is your theory of baptism or not please.

it has alot of very good examples that why I used this link to gain understand in my getting.

http://www.baptism.org/BAPTISM.htm

thank you

God Bless

 

[freelight]

help....I'm drowning.......

help....I'm drowning.......

Hello all,

I am amazed this thread has been going on and on as it has. Quite a hot potato for some. I have a question for the H20'ers :chuckle: -

1)Lets say right now....I am a christian....have been for years...but have not officially gotten baptized yet in water (total immersion) 'for' :think: the remission of sins. I am quite fine the way I am......and may or may not get water baptized. What if I never get water baptized? Will I still make it to heaven? Can I still be saved?

2)Also.....what about those christians who only get 'sprinkled' as opposed to dunked - is their baptism valid????

Of couse you know my opinion - water doesnt save, but faith avails. The question is the act of obedience, follow-thru with ones walk in the faith - the protocol of baptism and other rites of salvation, etc.

Lets here your take on my 2 points above -

shalom,

paul

 

[c.moore]

hello freelight


I think if a person doesn`t get baptized and know he or she should, and have been taught to be baptized in their christian walk i think those people will lack rewards or a crowned they might lose , and God might just say not well done my unfaithful servant.

But salvation is won by them when they made Jesus Christ Lord, and trust in Jesus , and was washed by the blood of Jesus, and repented of their sins.

Now I think in my understanding here with other H20er they think the baptism is a part of salvation and not a part of out saved born again walk.
They take the part where we get rewards ,and make it a salvation message.

It`s like they you train and run a race and you win because you trained and believed you are a runner, and you get a medal or trophy,as you reward, they believe in a way the medalion or trophy is the thing that qualify you as a runner, but even if a person doesn´t get a reward as long as he or she trains and try to run, and race they are a runner get my point, and see their errors???


Another example how I think they see this water baptism is like you have a car as a free gift and you don`t wash it or wax it , because you don`t wash and wax it you have no car even those the taking care of your car is important and it is the thing you should obey and do to keep the car in good shape and last long, still you have the car and it is a gift but they don`t believe this unless you obey and wash and wax, but if we don`t wash and wax we still have a car, just like if we don`t get water baptzed we are still heaven bound looking bad but we have that ticket to heaven praise God.

God Bless

 

[Kevin]

freelight,

I am amazed this thread has been going on and on as it has.

That's because of people's ingorance about what baptism is, and what we are trying to say. This is proven by people uttering rediculous sayings such as: "water doesnt save, but faith avails.", or "Jesus saves, not H20.".

You can do a search on this thread, and not ONE time will you find that I've said (or anybodyelse I've seen) that "water saves and not faith" .... or anything CLOSE to that. Anybody with half a brain who has taken a look at God's word knows that we are saved by our faith.

Where the disagreement on this thread lies is what kind of faith saves. Read again.... what KIND of faith saves. You guys want to claim that faith "only" saves, while we contend that faith which produces obedience - which shows true faith, is the kind of faith that saves.

Despite this, ramblings of "Jesus saves, not H20" continues, due to ignorance, pride, blindness, or a combination of any of those mentioned.

If anything is rediculous, it's the notion that faith "only" saves. That doctrine essentially teaches that as long as a person has faith in Jesus Christ, they can practice the following, and still make it to heaven:

• Lie
• Covet
• Fornicate
• Blaspheme
• Not repent
• Murder
• Steal
• Adulterate

Again, faith "only" claims that a person needs "only" to believe in Jesus, and that's all they need. They don't have to repent of their sinful ways. They can continue living a life of sin (disobedience to God) and still make it to heaven as long as they have faith. Now that's an absurd doctrine, but that's what faith "only" teaches. If you throw in ANY other condition for salvation, such as repentance, then faith "only" is defeated, for they are two seperate things.

1)Lets say right now....I am a christian....have been for years...but have not officially gotten baptized yet in water (total immersion) 'for' the remission of sins.

Then I wouldn't say that you are a Christian. A Christian is one who follows Christ, and Christ commanded that we be baptized... you just don't understand what baptism is for. Read Romans 6: 1-11. You'll clearly see that baptism is "FOR", yes for, the remission of sins, just as stated in Acts 2:38. How can you say you are a Christian if you don't obey His commandments? You can't, and the apostle John agrees with me:

1 John 2:3-4 (MKJV)
3) And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, I have known Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Plain and simple, if you don't keep His commandments, then the truth is not in you, and you are a liar. What happened to faith only?

I am quite fine the way I am......and may or may not get water baptized. What if I never get water baptized? Will I still make it to heaven? Can I still be saved?

Can a person make it to heaven who are still slaves of sin? No. Can a person make it to heaven who has not crucified the old man of sin? No. Will a person who is alive to sin, but dead to God be saved? No. ALL of these questions relate directly to baptism (Romans 6:1-11).

2)Also.....what about those christians who only get 'sprinkled' as opposed to dunked - is their baptism valid????

There are three problems with this:

• Sprinkling disagrees with the Greek for the word "baptism":
  
  G907
  βαπτίζω
  baptizō
  bap-tid'-zo
  From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.
  
• Sprinkling goes against the New Testament example of being baptized into Christ:
  
  Acts 8:38-39 (MKJV)
  38) And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch. And he baptized him.
  39) And when they had come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more. And he went on his way rejoicing.
  
  Why would they go down into the water and come up out of the water? And why do you think people were baptized in bodies of water large enough for immersion, such as the Jordan River or the baptistries found in Jerusalem? Answer: because they knew what "baptidzo" meant - to make fully wet.
  
• When we are baptized into Christ, we are symbolically following Christ into His death, burial, and resurrection (See Romans 6). It is at the point of baptism that we die with Christ (and it is those who have died with Christ who are freed from sin (Rom. 6:7 - which shows that baptism is FOR the remission of sins, Mr. Suspect). When we are water baptized, is somebody buried (completely covered) by sprinkling, or by full immersion? Immersion, which fits with the Greek and the example given in the New Testament.

Of couse you know my opinion - water doesnt save, but faith avails.

Faith saves? Really? This and others alike are the comments that I spoke of in the beginning of my post that shows a person's ignorance on what baptism is, and what we are trying to say. Show me who says that water saves?

The question is the act of obedience,

If faith "only" saves, as you and others advocate, then obedience doesn't matter. See above.

 

[freelight]

following thru with the Lord.....

following thru with the Lord.....

Originally posted by c.moore
hello freelight


I think if a person doesn`t get baptized and know he or she should, and have been taught to be baptized in their christian walk i think those people will lack rewards or a crowned they might lose , and God might just say not well done my unfaithful servant.

But salvation is won by them when they made Jesus Christ Lord, and trust in Jesus , and was washed by the blood of Jesus, and repented of their sins.

Now I think in my understanding here with other H20er they think the baptism is a part of salvation and not a part of out saved born again walk.
They take the part where we get rewards ,and make it a salvation message.

It`s like they you train and run a race and you win because you trained and believed you are a runner, and you get a medal or trophy,as you reward, they believe in a way the medalion or trophy is the thing that qualify you as a runner, but even if a person doesn´t get a reward as long as he or she trains and try to run, and race they are a runner get my point, and see their errors???


Another example how I think they see this water baptism is like you have a car as a free gift and you don`t wash it or wax it , because you don`t wash and wax it you have no car even those the taking care of your car is important and it is the thing you should obey and do to keep the car in good shape and last long, still you have the car and it is a gift but they don`t believe this unless you obey and wash and wax, but if we don`t wash and wax we still have a car, just like if we don`t get water baptzed we are still heaven bound looking bad but we have that ticket to heaven praise God.

God Bless

)==========Hi c.moore,..............I agree some with you. Not following thru with the protocol of baptism might show that there is something not altogether perfect with your 'faith' or desire to really follow the Lord. The whole argument here by the H20'ers is that one must obey the commands of the Lord to be a true disciple and recipuient of His benefits. I have always agreed with this - although have taken a different perspective on things relative to it - but as students we must always be open to learn more and seek the Lords ways.

peace,

paul

 

[freelight]

the big dip...............

the big dip...............

Hi Kev,..........my comments interspersed below -

Kev begins -

freelight,



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am amazed this thread has been going on and on as it has.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That's because of people's ingorance about what baptism is, and what we are trying to say. This is proven by people uttering rediculous sayings such as: "water doesnt save, but faith avails.", or "Jesus saves, not H20.".

You can do a search on this thread, and not ONE time will you find that I've said (or anybodyelse I've seen) that "water saves and not faith" .... or anything CLOSE to that. Anybody with half a brain who has taken a look at God's word knows that we are saved by our faith.



)=============of course Kev, I dont think I've ever accused any of the H20'ers of believing faith is not essential.


Kev continues -

Where the disagreement on this thread lies is what kind of faith saves. Read again.... what KIND of faith saves. You guys want to claim that faith "only" saves, while we contend that faith which produces obedience - which shows true faith, is the kind of faith that saves.


)========== I agree, living faith which inspires action saves.


Kev continues -

Despite this, ramblings of "Jesus saves, not H20" continues, due to ignorance, pride, blindness, or a combination of any of those mentioned.


)=========== lol - I think you are referring to Freaks wonderful antics there. :chuckle:


Kev continues -

If anything is rediculous, it's the notion that faith "only" saves. That doctrine essentially teaches that as long as a person has faith in Jesus Christ, they can practice the following, and still make it to heaven:


Lie

Covet

Fornicate

Blaspheme

Not repent

Murder

Steal

Adulterate



)=============now now, that is a bit extreme! I seriously doubt most faithers believe in what you propose. Come on.


Kevin continues -


Again, faith "only" claims that a person needs "only" to believe in Jesus, and that's all they need. They don't have to repent of their sinful ways. They can continue living a life of sin (disobedience to God) and still make it to heaven as long as they have faith. Now that's an absurd doctrine, but that's what faith "only" teaches. If you throw in ANY other condition for salvation, such as repentance, then faith "only" is defeated, for they are two seperate things.


)=============Hmmmmm........I think thats your 'view' or 'interpretation' of what you think 'faith only' folks believe - you are exaggerating a bit to make your point...however.




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1)Lets say right now....I am a christian....have been for years...but have not officially gotten baptized yet in water (total immersion) 'for' the remission of sins.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Then I wouldn't say that you are a Christian. A Christian is one who follows Christ, and Christ commanded that we be baptized... you just don't understand what baptism is for. Read Romans 6: 1-11. You'll clearly see that baptism is "FOR", yes for, the remission of sins, just as stated in Acts 2:38. How can you say you are a Christian if you don't obey His commandments? You can't, and the apostle John agrees with me:

1 John 2:3-4 (MKJV)
3) And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, I have known Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Plain and simple, if you don't keep His commandments, then the truth is not in you, and you are a liar. What happened to faith only?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am quite fine the way I am......and may or may not get water baptized. What if I never get water baptized? Will I still make it to heaven? Can I still be saved?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Can a person make it to heaven who are still slaves of sin? No. Can a person make it to heaven who has not crucified the old man of sin? No. Will a person who is alive to sin, but dead to God be saved? No. ALL of these questions relate directly to baptism (Romans 6:1-11).



)==============O kev,.............you have made your point and presented your logic over and over again....and your proof texts :angel: - I admire your perseverence.....and of course recognize your stand/position.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2)Also.....what about those christians who only get 'sprinkled' as opposed to dunked - is their baptism valid????
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



There are three problems with this:


Sprinkling disagrees with the Greek for the word "baptism":

G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.


Sprinkling goes against the New Testament example of being baptized into Christ:

Acts 8:38-39 (MKJV)
38) And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch. And he baptized him.
39) And when they had come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more. And he went on his way rejoicing.

Why would they go down into the water and come up out of the water? And why do you think people were baptized in bodies of water large enough for immersion, such as the Jordan River or the baptistries found in Jerusalem? Answer: because they knew what "baptidzo" meant - to make fully wet.


When we are baptized into Christ, we are symbolically following Christ into His death, burial, and resurrection (See Romans 6). It is at the point of baptism that we die with Christ (and it is those who have died with Christ who are freed from sin (Rom. 6:7 - which shows that baptism is FOR the remission of sins, Mr. Suspect). When we are water baptized, is somebody buried (completely covered) by sprinkling, or by full immersion? Immersion, which fits with the Greek and the example given in the New Testament.



)============= very good,.....I have always seen 'baptizo' to mean to fully immerse.




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of couse you know my opinion - water doesnt save, but faith avails.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Faith saves? Really? This and others alike are the comments that I spoke of in the beginning of my post that shows a person's ignorance on what baptism is, and what we are trying to say. Show me who says that water saves?



)============== Its a matter of understanding isnt it. If you understand, you'll get my point - yours was gotten long ago - the rest are semantics, variables, perspectives, flexibilities in relative views etc.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The question is the act of obedience,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If faith "only" saves, as you and others advocate, then obedience doesn't matter. See above.


)================well.....living faith does inspire one to obey and actually satisfy the will/desire/law of God. Of course, faith without action(works) is not a living faith. Come on. Cant you see much of this is semantics, more or less. I dont know if I can agree with your assessment of 'faith' only believers...as advocating and allowing free engagement of sin - because first of all....such is not even 'christian' and second of all....true faith in God inspires righteousness and obedience to His divine will - genuine faith even inspires a hatred of evil and the fear of the Lord. This thread is about exhausted and you have shared your view thoroughly and extensively - thanks for sharing - it has been some ride. :cheers:

You also realize that some 'christians' will have various views and different perspectives on baptism relative to their salvation - you have made your point and case.


:jump:


:mrt: :joker: :juggle: :read: :drum:
:wave: :cloud9: :bow: :neck: :baby:




God bless and keep you,


paul

 

[Kevin]

freelight,

of course Kev, I dont think I've ever accused any of the H20'ers of believing faith is not essential.

My aplogies, Paul. C.Moore has made such comments, and I guess I made the mistake of assuming you shared his views. But, when you say things like:

"Of couse you know my opinion - water doesnt save, but faith avails."

That leaves the impression that you perceive me to advocate that water saves, and not faith. It's very similar to Freak's ramblings of "Jesus saves, not H20!".

Where the disagreement on this thread lies is what kind of faith saves. Read again.... what KIND of faith saves. You guys want to claim that faith "only" saves, while we contend that faith which produces obedience - which shows true faith, is the kind of faith that saves.


)========== I agree, living faith which inspires action saves.

My apologies again... I thought you were part of the "faith alone" saves crowd. Just as you said, faith that inspires actions is the kind of faith that saves, or as James says - Faith with works. Amen... that's what I've been trying to get accross in this thread for some time now. :thumb:

Despite this, ramblings of "Jesus saves, not H20" continues, due to ignorance, pride, blindness, or a combination of any of those mentioned.


)=========== lol - I think you are referring to Freaks wonderful antics there.

Yeah - "Jesus saves, not H20" is Freak's copyright . But you make a similar comment: "Of couse you know my opinion - water doesnt save, but faith avails." It just implies (to me) that I'm going around preaching that water saves and nothing else matters, which is certainly NOT what I'm saying.

If anything is rediculous, it's the notion that faith "only" saves. That doctrine essentially teaches that as long as a person has faith in Jesus Christ, they can practice the following, and still make it to heaven:


Lie

Covet

Fornicate

Blaspheme

Not repent

Murder

Steal

Adulterate



)=============now now, that is a bit extreme! I seriously doubt most faithers believe in what you propose. Come on.

But that's exactly what the faith only doctrine teaches. That what faith "alone" means. That's why Freak has been unable to answer the simple question of: Is repentence necessary for salavtion. He knows that if he answers yes to that question that he's just killed his faith "only" saves doctrine. If he answers no, then he would be following a doctrine that I described above. As you can see, he is in a delima, therefore he chooses not to even address it, which shows the weakness of his position.

I went to the trouble of pointing out those things to show the fallacy of faith "only" saves because that is a widely held view. They don't believe that obedience plays a role in salvation, wich leaves the doctrine that I described about faith "only".

Again, faith "only" claims that a person needs "only" to believe in Jesus, and that's all they need. They don't have to repent of their sinful ways. They can continue living a life of sin (disobedience to God) and still make it to heaven as long as they have faith. Now that's an absurd doctrine, but that's what faith "only" teaches. If you throw in ANY other condition for salvation, such as repentance, then faith "only" is defeated, for they are two seperate things.


)=============Hmmmmm........I think thats your 'view' or 'interpretation' of what you think 'faith only' folks believe - you are exaggerating a bit to make your point...however.

It's not an exaggeration at all. People who share Freak's veiw claim that we are saved by faith "only" or "alone". I know you smart enough to know what "only" or "alone" means, so I won't go to the dictionary on you. But the words "only" and "alone" are pivital in their agrument. That means that they are saying that faith by itself will get you to heaven, but that's not what the Bible teaches at all, which is why I pointed out it's fallacy. It's not an exaggeration at all... it's a consequence of their definition of faith and how it supposedly saves us.

)==============O kev,.............you have made your point and presented your logic over and over again....and your proof texts - I admire your perseverence.....and of course recognize your stand/position.

Thanks. It's a shame that I have to present them over and over, because I wouldn't have to do so if people would answer them, instead of replying to them.

)============= very good,.....I have always seen 'baptizo' to mean to fully immerse.

Thank you again... and I'm glad to see there's some things we agree on.

Faith saves? Really? This and others alike are the comments that I spoke of in the beginning of my post that shows a person's ignorance on what baptism is, and what we are trying to say. Show me who says that water saves?



)============== Its a matter of understanding isnt it. If you understand, you'll get my point - yours was gotten long ago - the rest are semantics, variables, perspectives, flexibilities in relative views etc.

Oh I understand alright. And I would disagree that the rest are symantics, varibles, etc. I try hard to make a solid arguments and back it with scripture.

If faith "only" saves, as you and others advocate, then obedience doesn't matter. See above.


)================well.....living faith does inspire one to obey and actually satisfy the will/desire/law of God. Of course, faith without action(works) is not a living faith. Come on. Cant you see much of this is semantics, more or less.

It's not symantics, it's relevent to our salvation. Just look at Matt. 25:41-46... they were condemned to hell because their faith did not include action (works). It's not symantical, faith "only" is a dangerous, dangerous doctrine because it leaves out other crucial aspects that we must do for salvation such as repentence.

I dont know if I can agree with your assessment of 'faith' only believers...as advocating and allowing free engagement of sin - because first of all....such is not even 'christian' and second of all....true faith in God inspires righteousness and obedience to His divine will - genuine faith even inspires a hatred of evil and the fear of the Lord.

Again, I go to such "extremes" to show the fallecy of the faith "only" doctrine. People like Freak will contend that works has nothing to do with our salvation. I realize that we are not saved BY our works, but they DO play a role in our salvation - such as repentance, which is a work. Loving one another is a commandment (a work) that we must do that effects our salvation. Just look at Matt. 25: 46-41... they didn't love one another as themselves, or they would have done good works unto them. But they didn't do works unto man, and it cost them their salvation.

As it says in Hebrews 5:9, Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, not just believe.

This thread is about exhausted and you have shared your view thoroughly and extensively - thanks for sharing - it has been some ride.

Anytime.

You also realize that some 'christians' will have various views and different perspectives on baptism relative to their salvation - you have made your point and case.

I'm glad you can see my point and where I'm coming from.

 

[freelight]

living faith........

living faith........

Hi Kev,


I saw your point more or less from the beginning but was riding things out with you to get at the particulars of your logic. We all agree that faith is a primary essential in our relationship with God and the reception of His salvation, enjoyments, benefits, etc.

Of course a 'faith alone' kind of philosophy which allows for things which are not pleasing to God nor in sync with His eternal laws, mandates, principles, is profitless.

A living faith thrives with the inspiration of obedience to the divine Spirit bearing fruit in good deeds and acts which compliment and express the perfection and maturity of ones faith. Truly, faith is the essential substance.....but it is not a genuine faith, nor is such faith perfectly satisfied or fulfilled apart from works - the very acts which faith inspires.....towards obedience in the pleasure of His good will.

There is no conflict with Paul and Peter as some suggest....for it forever remains true, that faith without works is dead. Faith is essential - one must begin with the substance - but such faith is only made genuine and wholly fulfilling(perfect) when it acts out....and obeys the inspiration, leading of God.

What one must realize is the quality of ones faith and if such faith is actually God-given/generated. Spirit-born faith avails...and inspires action. Faith is not complete until it is acted out - when it is acted out - it is perfected, satisfied, fulfilled.


So Yes, faith is good and faith saves.........but such faith will always inspire obedience to the Lords commandments - for it is faith working by love that avails and also a new creation as Paul teaches. Its about our cooperation with the His generation - the ministry of His Spirit - for such gives Life and peace.


paul

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Kevin
People like Freak will contend that works has nothing to do with our salvation.

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

I realize that we are not saved BY our works, but they DO play a role in our salvation

Here we go again. :nono:

 

[Kevin]

Agreement!

Agreement!

freelight,

Of course a 'faith alone' kind of philosophy which allows for things which are not pleasing to God nor in sync with His eternal laws, mandates, principles, is profitless.

Amen, amen, and AMEN! Pay attention if you're reading FREAK!

There is no conflict with Paul and Peter as some suggest....for it forever remains true, that faith without works is dead.

Amen!

Faith is essential - one must begin with the substance - but such faith is only made genuine and wholly fulfilling(perfect) when it acts out....and obeys the inspiration, leading of God.

Exactly. :up:

So Yes, faith is good and faith saves.........but such faith will always inspire obedience to the Lords commandments

Exactly!!! Some people just don't get that, though.

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

How typical... you just come out of the woodwork without addressing any of the arguments that you have ignored.

Your interpretation of Eph. 2:8 is erroneous.

Simple question. Do we need to repent to be saved, which is a work? C'mon Freak, take a stab at it!

And what about the people in Matt. 25: 41-46? Are you going to tell me that works had nothing to do with their salvation?

And what about Revelations, when it says that we will be judged BY OUR WORKS!

Revelation 20:12 (MKJV)
12) And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Interesting... so we will be judged by something that has nothing to do with our salvation (according to you). That of course, makes no sense.

And we never did complete our discussion about 1 John 2:3-4, which says that if you don't keep the commandments of Christ, yet claim to know Him, you are a liar, and the truth is not in you.

So, according to that verse, how can one have faith "only", and not obey the commandments, and still make it to heaven?

Your rediculous faith "only" doctrine leaves you with what I illustrated earlier:

If anything is rediculous, it's the notion that faith "only" saves. That doctrine essentially teaches that as long as a person has faith in Jesus Christ, they can practice the following, and still make it to heaven:

• Lie
• Covet
• Fornicate
• Blaspheme
• Not repent
• Murder
• Steal
• Adulterate

Again, faith "only" claims that a person needs "only" to believe in Jesus, and that's all they need. They don't have to repent of their sinful ways. They can continue living a life of sin (disobedience to God) and still make it to heaven as long as they have faith. Now that's an absurd doctrine, but that's what faith "only" teaches. If you throw in ANY other condition for salvation, such as repentance, then faith "only" is defeated, for they are two seperate things.

So what are you going to do, Freak? Are you going to evade the issues as normal, or will you actually answer? :think:

 

[c.moore]

Re: You've got to be kidding...

Re: You've got to be kidding...

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,



Not once have I seen Francisco or myself say that faith doesn't save. I'm seriously wondering if you are fully comprehending what we are saying, and I don't mean that as a personal insult.

I mean, are HOW many times throughout this thread have I said that the faith that saves is the faith that obeys? Many times. Is that not saying that faith saves us? We just disagree over what type of faith saves. Just look at my recent exchanges with Clete Pfiefer, which I speak about the type of faith that justifies us, which makes us righteous before God.

You just don't get what we are saying... no matter how hard we try to break it down to you. To say that we believe that water baptism saves and not faith, is down right rediculous, because they go hand in hand. HOW many times have I used Mark 16:16 against you... which includes BELIEF for salvation? Please.... :down:

So the water helps save your soul???

What saved noah the boat alone or the water??

Also in Acts 2 don`t you think afeter the day of pentecost Peter had the revelation what was the spiritual Baptism, and how important it was???

Don`t you find it strange when christain ask people do they want to get save and the thing they say is believe in the death burial, and resurrection of Christ , repent and be washed or baptism in the blood of Jesus, trusting Jesus and being filled withthe Holy Ghost, read you bible and find a bible teaching church?

How would this look according to your salvation message , HEY repent , and then do all the laws and obey and you have to get baptism not in God name or Holy Ghost , but get baptiized in this order in the name of the LORD.
Do you really think this will turn somebody on to more rules and regulations, and laws of salvation???
I think in the christian walk after they are saved by the washing of the blood of Jesus and repentance they should want to obey, and get baptized, stop smoking, lieing less, cheating lesser,stop lusting less or practicing sins like they use to do in their baby walk.

Last question , have you ever brought anybody to the Lord and they got saved???:think:

God Bless

 

[c.moore]

Re: following thru with the Lord.....

Re: following thru with the Lord.....

Originally posted by freelight
)==========Hi c.moore,..............I agree some with you. Not following thru with the protocol of baptism might show that there is something not altogether perfect with your 'faith' or desire to really follow the Lord. The whole argument here by the H20'ers is that one must obey the commands of the Lord to be a true disciple and recipuient of His benefits. I have always agreed with this - although have taken a different perspective on things relative to it - but as students we must always be open to learn more and seek the Lords ways.

peace,

paul

How do you like this salvation math do you agree??

Step 1 salvation NOW

believe trusting in Jesus as Lord + repentance and being washed in the blood of Jesus + letting Jesus come in your heart= SAVED and Born again.

Step two The Christian walk or obedience of the fruits you are saved for real.

start knowing Christ by studying the bible, and finding your instructions, and will of God for your life + get baptized in water to be a symbol of step 1 + start having you flesh die to your old life, by not practising sins and being obedient to what you read in your instruction book the bible + witness to other that Christ has saved you and they can be free also make disciples + go to church and have fellowship with other christians that are spiritual led + pay your tithes , and offerings+ seek and ask for spiritual gifts, and get a vision for your life.

This is how I set somebody off on their christian walk , and there is more like maybe giving up cicarettes , fornification acts , false thinking, lieing,cheating,stealing, swearing or cursing, lustful things , addiction to drug alcohol , bad company or being aroud unsaved friends etc

may be you can give me your formular if yours is not the same ok???


God Bless

 

[freelight]

protocol.....

protocol.....

Hi c.moore,

Your steps seem to be in line with the intitiation process and one entering into the fold of God. While there are primary essential requirements and understandings in the process of our conversions....there will be minor differences at times in our perspectives and even practices relative to our committment to the Lord. These will be determined by our adherence to scripture, church traditions and our personal practical and spiritual sensitivities....in following after the Holy Spirit. So you see....we must be true to the Spirit of God...who is ever leading, guiding and teaching us in the ways of Life. While we have protocols, forms, rites, customs, rituals and other manners typical of our christian faith traditions.......these must ever be upheld as vehicles and platforms whereby the Spirit of Christ may work.


paul

 

[Kevin]

Still no answer from Freak...

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

So the water helps save your soul???

Yes, water baptism is a part of the plan of salvation. Baptism is a response to faith, just as repentance is a response to faith. Without repentance and baptism, which is brought on by the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the faith in Christ, faith is usless.

When one repents and is baptized, its because of their faith, and therefore their faith has saved them, because they acted upon it.

The people who believe that faith "ONLY" saves runs into the same dilema that I've posted to Freak (and of course he doesn't respond):

If anything is rediculous, it's the notion that faith "only" saves. That doctrine essentially teaches that as long as a person has faith in Jesus Christ, they can practice the following, and still make it to heaven:

• Lie
• Covet
• Fornicate
• Blaspheme
• Not repent
• Murder
• Steal
• Adulterate

Again, faith "only" claims that a person needs "only" to believe in Jesus, and that's all they need. They don't have to repent of their sinful ways. They can continue living a life of sin (disobedience to God) and still make it to heaven as long as they have faith. Now that's an absurd doctrine, but that's what faith "only" teaches. If you throw in ANY other condition for salvation, such as repentance, then faith "only" is defeated, for they are two seperate things.

What saved noah the boat alone or the water??

Noah was saved by his faith in God. Had Noah not believed in God, that He was going to destory the world, he would have perished also. But Noah believed in God, and his faith led to action of obedience by building the ark. Do you think that if Noah had not built that Ark, but had faith in the Lord, that he would have been saved? No way. Once again, we see that faith that includes obedience is the kind of faith that saves, not faith only.

Now to answer your question specifically, Noah and his family, in the Ark, were saved through water:

1 Peter 3:20 (MKJV)
20) to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water);

Also in Acts 2 don`t you think afeter the day of pentecost Peter had the revelation what was the spiritual Baptism, and how important it was???

What? There is no such Biblical indication that God gave Peter some kind of revelation regarding Spirit baptism. If you are referring to Acts 10 and 11, that has extensively been explained why that happened.

Don`t you find it strange when christain ask people do they want to get save and the thing they say is believe in the death burial, and resurrection of Christ , repent and be washed or baptism in the blood of Jesus, trusting Jesus and being filled withthe Holy Ghost, read you bible and find a bible teaching church?

I think that most people in life if you approach them probably haven't read their Bibles, and found out what the plan of salvation is. Just because your TV hero's preach easy believism and the sinners prayer doesn't make it right. You won't find their system of conversion anywhere in the Bible. "Say this prayer with me and you're a Christian!".... right. It's not even the believer's own prayer! They are just reciting what the TV Evangelist is saying!

How would this look according to your salvation message , HEY repent , and then do all the laws and obey and you have to get baptism not in God name or Holy Ghost , but get baptiized in this order in the name of the LORD.

That's not what I would tell a person! You completely left Jesus out of the picture! I would preach Christ and Him crucified to them, just as the apostles did, and to those who believed, I would tell them that they need to repent of their sinful ways and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins... just like in Acts 2!!! And yes, I would tell them that they need to remain obedient to Christ to the point of death.

Do you really think this will turn somebody on to more rules and regulations, and laws of salvation???

I would attempt to convert people in the manner I described above. If people don't believe, that's on them, but I'm NOT going to comprimise the gospel and preach some watered down version of it saying "believe on Jesus and pray the sinner's prayer"! It's completely unbiblical. You DON'T change God's plan of salvation to make it more appealing to people.

I think in the christian walk after they are saved by the washing of the blood of Jesus and repentance they should want to obey, and get baptized, stop smoking, lieing less, cheating lesser,stop lusting less or practicing sins like they use to do in their baby walk.

I don't believe they are saved until after they are baptized. How is a person saved while still living in their sins and dead to God? Romans 6 clearly says that baptism's role is to crucify the old man of sin, thus being FREE from sin, and alive to God through Christ (verses 1-11).

Last question , have you ever brought anybody to the Lord and they got saved???

Yes, but that makes no difference at all. Mormons and Jehova Whitnesses will tell you that they've brought plenty of people to the Lord. It's the message that's important, and God gives the increase.