I think it has been proven at least, oh, 50 or 60 times on this extremely Loooong thread what baptism really means. Not only that, but it's a commandment- why would you not do what you are commanded? Baptism isn't something you have to work at- it's only done one time. It isn't like it takes practice or something. I don't see what the big deal is, even after 200 pages. It's been made pretty clear, freak.
The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
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Freak
New member
The question lies in that is it a requirement to attain salvation? I believe the Holy Scriptures speak of water baptism being a symbolic act not a means to attain salvation. The writers of Scripture see "faith" and faith alone as the means to attain salvation.
God's Word says:
Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
The promises of God is given "through faith" not through baptism.
bibliophile1954
OVER 500 post club
Re: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!
Re: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!
Freak: I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, (I don't have the time to go through 200+ pages), but I have always looked at baptism like this-What was the message of John the Baptist! Repent & be baptised! What was the message of of Jesus? Repent! What was the message of the Apostles? Repent and be baptised! NOWHERE doES IT say ANYWHERE in the Bible-BE BAPTISED & REPENT! Throughout the NT, baptism has always been an OUTWARD expression of ones faith! It doesn't hold any magical, or spiritual powers! It is saying to the world, by a visual declaration-I believe in JESUS! I will stand up for HIM! It is a declaration of one's faith, in front of the whole world!, But it doesn't influence a person's salvation! The only thing that will do that is Receiving the LORD Jesus as one's Lord & Savior!
bib
Re: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!
Freak: I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, (I don't have the time to go through 200+ pages), but I have always looked at baptism like this-What was the message of John the Baptist! Repent & be baptised! What was the message of of Jesus? Repent! What was the message of the Apostles? Repent and be baptised! NOWHERE doES IT say ANYWHERE in the Bible-BE BAPTISED & REPENT! Throughout the NT, baptism has always been an OUTWARD expression of ones faith! It doesn't hold any magical, or spiritual powers! It is saying to the world, by a visual declaration-I believe in JESUS! I will stand up for HIM! It is a declaration of one's faith, in front of the whole world!, But it doesn't influence a person's salvation! The only thing that will do that is Receiving the LORD Jesus as one's Lord & Savior!
bib
Freak,
No one is refuting the fact that faith justifies us. Look at ti from this perspective, baptism is an act of faith, and an act God has commanded we do.
Also, consider the scriptures I have posted showing 'baptism saves' (1 Peter 3:21) and through baptism we 'receive the gift of the Holy Spirit' (Matt.3:16 & Acts 2:38).
God Bless,
Francisco
No one is refuting the fact that faith justifies us. Look at ti from this perspective, baptism is an act of faith, and an act God has commanded we do.
Also, consider the scriptures I have posted showing 'baptism saves' (1 Peter 3:21) and through baptism we 'receive the gift of the Holy Spirit' (Matt.3:16 & Acts 2:38).
God Bless,
Francisco
bibliophile1954
OVER 500 post club
I think you are thinking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, Francisco-I believe Freak is talking about Water baptism. Now that I think about it, Even the Baptism of the Holy Spirit also occured AFTER ones profession of belief In Jesus! Doesn't it say that in ACTS Chapter 1, or 2? These were adults, NOT infants.
In HIM,
bib
bib,
There is only 'one baptism'. Through the act of that one baptism we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus received the Holy Spirit when He came up out of the waters of the Jordan. And that one baptism includes a profession of faith in Jesus, along with repentence of sins.
God Bless,
Francisco
There is only 'one baptism'. Through the act of that one baptism we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus received the Holy Spirit when He came up out of the waters of the Jordan. And that one baptism includes a profession of faith in Jesus, along with repentence of sins.
God Bless,
Francisco
The foundation of the gospel is the death , burial, and ressurection of Jesus. We die with him, and we are buried, and ressurected..... OF COURSE IT IS SYMBOLIC. We die in repentance- not physically, and we are buried in baptism- not literally, but symbolically, and we come up out of the water to a new life. It is not something done publically necessarily, to show everybody what I did, or to show everybody that I'm legit now....it is a symbolic burial with your savior. It is part of being born again.
If faith is all that it takes to be saved, and baptism is a work of the flesh..... then there is no need to repent either. If faith is all you need, then repentance is a work of the flesh, too. We should just all have faith and be saved. No need to repent.
If faith is all that it takes to be saved, and baptism is a work of the flesh..... then there is no need to repent either. If faith is all you need, then repentance is a work of the flesh, too. We should just all have faith and be saved. No need to repent.
bibliophile1954
OVER 500 post club
OK, point noted! The concept of THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, is an idea for another thread, but I'm not going to be the one to start it!
bib
Not meaning to change the subject of the never ending thread, but it takes more than just faith to save you la rubia. Faith without works is dead, and is pointless. The devil believes and trembles, but he is obviously not saved.
Besides, if baptism is purely symbolic, why would St. Peter say baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:21)?
Besides, if baptism is purely symbolic, why would St. Peter say baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:21)?
Furthermore, why would all the early Christians have believed in the necessity of baptism for salvation? These folks were taught by Jesus, the apostles, or their direct diciples. Many WERE direct disciples of the apostles. Here are some samples of what the early fathers taught on baptism:
Hermas
"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).
Justin Martyr
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Tertullian
"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!" (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).
"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (ibid., 12).
"We have, indeed, a second [baptismal] font which is one with the former [water baptism]: namely, that of blood, of which the Lord says: ‘I am to be baptized with a baptism’ [Luke 12:50], when he had already been baptized. He had come through water and blood, as John wrote [1 John 5:6], so that he might be baptized with water and glorified with blood. . . . This is the baptism which replaces that of the fountain, when it has not been received, and restores it when it has been lost" (ibid., 16).
Hippolytus
"[P]erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible. For thus the [prophet] has sworn to us: ‘Amen, I say to you, unless you are born again with living water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore, fly to the water, for this alone can extinguish the fire. He who will not come to the water still carries around with him the spirit of insanity for the sake of which he will not come to the living water for his own salvation" (Homilies 11:26 [A.D. 217]).
Origen
"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism" (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"[T]he baptism of public witness [desire] and of blood cannot profit a heretic unto salvation, because there is no salvation outside the Church." (Letters 72[73]:21 [A.D. 253]).
"[Catechumens who suffer martyrdom] are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism. Rather, they are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood, concerning which the Lord said that he had another baptism with which he himself was to be baptized [Luke 12:50]" (ibid., 72[73]:22).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.
. . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’ Indeed, the martyrs too confess, by being made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men [1 Cor. 4:9]" (Catechetical Lectures 3:10 [A.D. 350]).
Gregory Nazianz
"[Besides the baptisms associated with Moses, John, and Jesus] I know also a fourth baptism, that by martyrdom and blood, by which also Christ himself was baptized. This one is far more august than the others, since it cannot be defiled by later sins" (Oration on the Holy Lights 39:17 [A.D. 381]).
Pope Siricius
"It would tend to the ruin of our souls if, from our refusal of the saving font of baptism to those who seek it, any of them should depart this life and lose the kingdom and eternal life" (Letter to Himerius 3 [A.D. 385]).
John Chrysostom
"Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood" (Panegyric on St. Lucian 2 [A.D. 387]).
Ambrose of Milan
"But I hear you lamenting because he [the Emperor Valentinian] had not received the sacraments of baptism. Tell me, what else could we have, except the will to it, the asking for it? He too had just now this desire, and after he came into Italy it was begun, and a short time ago he signified that he wished to be baptized by me. Did he, then, not have the grace which he desired? Did he not have what he eagerly sought? Certainly, because he sought it, he received it. What else does it mean: ‘Whatever just man shall be overtaken by death, his soul shall be at rest [Wis. 4:7]’?" (Sympathy at the Death of Valentinian [A.D. 392]).
Augustine
"There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized" (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).
"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person. . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:21:28 [A.D. 400]).
"That the place of baptism is sometimes supplied by suffering is supported by a substantial argument which the same blessed Cyprian draws from the circumstance of the thief, to whom, although not baptized, it was said, ‘Today you shall be with me in paradise’ [Luke 23:43]. Considering this over and over again, I find that not only suffering for the name of Christ can supply for that which is lacking by way of baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart [i.e., baptism of desire] if, perhaps, because of the circumstances of the time, recourse cannot be had to the celebration of the mystery of baptism" (ibid., 4:22:29).
"When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body. . . . All who are within [the Church] in heart are saved in the unity of the ark [by baptism of desire]" (ibid., 5:28:39).
"[According to] apostolic tradition . . . the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal. This is the witness of Scripture too" (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:24:34 [A.D. 412]).
"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’ [Matt. 10:32]" (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).
Hermas
"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).
Justin Martyr
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Tertullian
"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!" (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).
"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (ibid., 12).
"We have, indeed, a second [baptismal] font which is one with the former [water baptism]: namely, that of blood, of which the Lord says: ‘I am to be baptized with a baptism’ [Luke 12:50], when he had already been baptized. He had come through water and blood, as John wrote [1 John 5:6], so that he might be baptized with water and glorified with blood. . . . This is the baptism which replaces that of the fountain, when it has not been received, and restores it when it has been lost" (ibid., 16).
Hippolytus
"[P]erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible. For thus the [prophet] has sworn to us: ‘Amen, I say to you, unless you are born again with living water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore, fly to the water, for this alone can extinguish the fire. He who will not come to the water still carries around with him the spirit of insanity for the sake of which he will not come to the living water for his own salvation" (Homilies 11:26 [A.D. 217]).
Origen
"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism" (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"[T]he baptism of public witness [desire] and of blood cannot profit a heretic unto salvation, because there is no salvation outside the Church." (Letters 72[73]:21 [A.D. 253]).
"[Catechumens who suffer martyrdom] are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism. Rather, they are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood, concerning which the Lord said that he had another baptism with which he himself was to be baptized [Luke 12:50]" (ibid., 72[73]:22).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.
. . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’ Indeed, the martyrs too confess, by being made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men [1 Cor. 4:9]" (Catechetical Lectures 3:10 [A.D. 350]).
Gregory Nazianz
"[Besides the baptisms associated with Moses, John, and Jesus] I know also a fourth baptism, that by martyrdom and blood, by which also Christ himself was baptized. This one is far more august than the others, since it cannot be defiled by later sins" (Oration on the Holy Lights 39:17 [A.D. 381]).
Pope Siricius
"It would tend to the ruin of our souls if, from our refusal of the saving font of baptism to those who seek it, any of them should depart this life and lose the kingdom and eternal life" (Letter to Himerius 3 [A.D. 385]).
John Chrysostom
"Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood" (Panegyric on St. Lucian 2 [A.D. 387]).
Ambrose of Milan
"But I hear you lamenting because he [the Emperor Valentinian] had not received the sacraments of baptism. Tell me, what else could we have, except the will to it, the asking for it? He too had just now this desire, and after he came into Italy it was begun, and a short time ago he signified that he wished to be baptized by me. Did he, then, not have the grace which he desired? Did he not have what he eagerly sought? Certainly, because he sought it, he received it. What else does it mean: ‘Whatever just man shall be overtaken by death, his soul shall be at rest [Wis. 4:7]’?" (Sympathy at the Death of Valentinian [A.D. 392]).
Augustine
"There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized" (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).
"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person. . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:21:28 [A.D. 400]).
"That the place of baptism is sometimes supplied by suffering is supported by a substantial argument which the same blessed Cyprian draws from the circumstance of the thief, to whom, although not baptized, it was said, ‘Today you shall be with me in paradise’ [Luke 23:43]. Considering this over and over again, I find that not only suffering for the name of Christ can supply for that which is lacking by way of baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart [i.e., baptism of desire] if, perhaps, because of the circumstances of the time, recourse cannot be had to the celebration of the mystery of baptism" (ibid., 4:22:29).
"When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body. . . . All who are within [the Church] in heart are saved in the unity of the ark [by baptism of desire]" (ibid., 5:28:39).
"[According to] apostolic tradition . . . the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal. This is the witness of Scripture too" (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:24:34 [A.D. 412]).
"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’ [Matt. 10:32]" (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).
Nono... I'm agreeing with you completely. I am taking the idea of "faith alone" a step further by saying that all we should do is have faith, and repentance isn't even necessary.
People keep saying that baptism is symbolic, and to me, it is. Going down in the water is a symbolic burial- that part of it IS symbolic.
If we die in repentance (at the cross) then we are buried and raised in baptism. It's no ritual. Professing belief in Jesus doesn't save you byitself. The devils also believe and tremble.
People keep saying that baptism is symbolic, and to me, it is. Going down in the water is a symbolic burial- that part of it IS symbolic.
If we die in repentance (at the cross) then we are buried and raised in baptism. It's no ritual. Professing belief in Jesus doesn't save you byitself. The devils also believe and tremble.
Freak said that we are saved by faith. And if we are saved by faith alone, then that makes repentance even a work of the flesh.
A man must be born again. Period. And we submit to repentance and baptism out of faith.
It makes no sense to die (repent) and not bury the dead (in baptism).
(sorry, francisco. I didn't mean to be confusing in what I was saying!)
A man must be born again. Period. And we submit to repentance and baptism out of faith.
It makes no sense to die (repent) and not bury the dead (in baptism).
(sorry, francisco. I didn't mean to be confusing in what I was saying!)
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Freak
New member
la rubia-
God's Word tells us:
"But also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification."
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast."
"So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."
"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
"Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not!"
Salvation is attained by faith alone not by water baptism. Jesus alone is able to save not water. Water baptism is merely a symbolic act that all believers should carry out to be a witness of their transformed life.
Freak
New member
la rubia-
Jesus, our Savior, said: For God so loved the world that whosoever BELIEVES in Him would not perish but have eternal life.
See for yourself:
God's Word tells us:
"But also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification."
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast."
"So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."
"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
"Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not!"
Freak
New member
Let's take a look what Jesus says:
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
"That everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
"I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life."
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. "
These are the words of Jesus, la rubia.
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
"That everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
"I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life."
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. "
These are the words of Jesus, la rubia.
la rubia,
You've made some excellent points, all of which I agree with.
Freak,
Does your definition of belief in Jesus only include mental belief, or would you agree that true belief would necessarily include doing what Jesus tells us to do. Scripture does say that those who love Jesus will obey His commandments. Maybe your definition for 'believe' is just too narrow and seems to make the scriptures you cite disagree with the scriptures cited by myself and others?
God Bless,
Francisco
PS - Are you coming through S. Florida on the way back from your island adventure? I may be down there the 2nd or 3rd week of Feb?
You've made some excellent points, all of which I agree with.
Freak,
Does your definition of belief in Jesus only include mental belief, or would you agree that true belief would necessarily include doing what Jesus tells us to do. Scripture does say that those who love Jesus will obey His commandments. Maybe your definition for 'believe' is just too narrow and seems to make the scriptures you cite disagree with the scriptures cited by myself and others?
God Bless,
Francisco
PS - Are you coming through S. Florida on the way back from your island adventure? I may be down there the 2nd or 3rd week of Feb?