The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Jerry Shugart]

JustAChristian & smilax,

May I suggest that we start a separate thread for the discussion as to whether or not there even exists such a thing as "original sin"?

I would also like to take part inthat discussion,but not on this thread.So would one of you start a new thread?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
JustAChristian & smilax,

May I suggest that we start a separate thread for the discussion as to whether or not there even exists such a thing as "original sin"?

I would also like to take part inthat discussion,but not on this thread.So would one of you start a new thread?

In His grace,--Jerry

I'm with you Jer, but I had to make that post since smilax challenged my statements with his assertion.

JustAChristian :thumb:

 

[JustAChristian]

What Is The One Baptism?

What Is The One Baptism?

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Jerry:
JustAChristian,

You confuse what you call "Holy Spirit Baptism" with the event when the Holy Spirit baptizes a believer into the body of Christ.

When the believer is baptized into the body of Christ,it is the Holy Spirit Who is the baptizer:

I am glad to see that you hold the Holy Spirit to be the servant of God and the agent in baptism. I hold that same position and teach 1 Cor. 12:13 in that manner.

Jerry:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).

The Holy Spirt baptism,as you call it,was indeed given on the day of Pentecost to those who believed.That baptism was for "power" (Acts1:8).In this baptismit is the Lord Jesus Who is the baptizer (Lk.3:16)

Christ is the baptizer as stated by John in the wilderness.

Jerry:
And all those who were baptized with water received this gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts2:38).

Jerry, you amaze me!

Jerry:
But as you correctly point out,"there is no more manifestation of the baptism with the Holy Spirit."

So I can see that you are beginning to see that there does in fact exist a progressive revelation of the Lord ́s plan and purposes.

Ibid.

Jerry:
Today there is only one baptism in God ́s plan and purpose, and that is when the believer is baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

In order to keep your "water baptism" you attempt to say that the baptism by the Holy Spirit is no longer in effect. So therefore, there is only one baptism, and that is with water. You must therefore believe that at one time the believer was baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit but now that is not the case. That baptism has been done away with.

Jerry, I know where you are coming from, but by your own conclusion you defeat yourself. What is the element in the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It can not be the Spirit. There must be a burial of the old man of sin. This can not be into the Holy Spirit, so it must be somewhere else. Where is that "somewhere else"?

Jerry:
Well,pray tell,how does the Christian enter the body of Christ now?

Peter said concerning the saved: "Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." (Acts 2:47 AV). Who did Peter say the Lord added to the church? Such as should be saved. What does that mean? It means those who listened to Peter and the other apostles preaching the gospel of Christ Jesus (Romans 1:16), and responded to the answer to their question "Men and brethren what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37). Peter told them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins..." Since sin can not enter heaven and the church is a "type" of heaven, sinners can not enter the church. They must first be rid of their past sins by the blood of Christ (Romans 3:25). This is done when one is immersed into Christ (Acts 22:16). The Lord then add to the church, the family of God, those who have taken off the old man of sin, who have become new creations in Christ Jesus through obeying the Gospel(2 Cor. 5:17; Mark 16:15-16).

Verses that help us to see this further...

“For we are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus; For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” (Galatians 3:26-27 AV)

“And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.” (Ephesians 4:24 AV)

“And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him” (Colossians 3:10 AV)

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:3-4 AV)

“And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:10-12 AV)

“The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 3:21 AV)

Jerry:
Next,the point I raised was that the epistle to the Ephesians was written after the Acts period.

And by your own words it was written at the very end of the Acts period, and by this time there had been no mention of anyone being baptized with water for many years.


The book of Acts is a chronological accounting of the history of the infant church. It gives accounts of the preaching and teaching of the apostles and inspired teachers. It is intended to impress upon the unsaved the importance of salvation and the church. It show the additions to the church, then and in succeeding generations from AD 33 when the church began. It show those who accepted and those who rejected the gospel and salvation to themselves. Whereas, the letters to the churches, such as the letter to the Ephesians, are letters written to the saved to instruct, to clarify and to correct error. They were written those who had already been baptized and needed not to be instructed on how to be saved. You are trying to "compare apples with oranges" and you can't do that.

Jerry:
And Paul himself said that the Lord told him that he would be receiving progressive revelation as time went by (Acts26:16).And one of those revelations is the fact that now there is only one baptism, and that baptism is when the Holy Spirit baptizes the believer into the body of Christ.

The apostles were sent into all the world with one message; one gospel. Paul had that same gospel. He was taught of the Lord after his conversion (Gal. 1:12-19; Acts 9:16). There is not one thing different in Paul's teaching from the other apostles.

Jerry:

In fact,you can search all of Paul ́s prison epistles as well as all the general epistles,and there is not even one word in regard to the rite of "water baptism".

This is because you don't teach a person he must be water baptized if he has already been water baptized. But, if his water baptism is invalid, you teach him to be re-baptized (Acts 19:1-6).

Jerry:
If submitting to a rite of water baptism is necessary for salvation, don ́t you think there would be at least one mention of that fact in all of these epistles?

Not necessarily. Though not specifically mentioned, it is inferred throughout all the epistles. This is because the church is being taught what it must continue to do and practice. When the apostle wrote about baptism, such as to the Galatians, he told them that they had put on Christ in baptism (Gal. 3:27). So, if you are trying to say that Ephesians 4:5, the one baptism, is progressive that is a wrong assumption.

Jerry:
But these is none! Instead, we read that there is only one baptism. And that is the baptism by the Holy Spirit to place the believer in the body of Christ.


Paul said:

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Romans 6:3-5 AV)



We read that the church is the spiritual body of Christ(Eph. 1:22-23). When the Holy Spirit acts as the servant of Christ and God in placing us into the body, this is done through the medium of water baptism. We are told that we must be "planted in the likeness of his death" in order to be raised in the "likeness of his resurrection". A mere act of just placing one into the church will not accomplish that. Jesus said one MUST be born of the water and of the spirit. The water involves baptism and the spirit involves faithful obedience to the commands of Christ. When we do what the gospel tell us, by truth, and believe and obey it by immersion for the remission of sins, we will be cleansed of our sins and added to the church (John 17:17; Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Acts 2:47).

JustAChristian
:angel:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Re: What Is The One Baptism?

Re: What Is The One Baptism?

JustAChristian:
Jerry, I know where you are coming from, but by your own conclusion you defeat yourself. What is the element in the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It can not be the Spirit. There must be a burial of the old man of sin. This can not be into the Holy Spirit, so it must be somewhere else. Where is that "somewhere else"?

What is the element in the death of the Lord Jesus Christ: "Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of,and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?(Lk.12:50)."The Lord was speaking of His death.What is the element in this baptism?

JustAChristian:
Peter said concerning the saved: "Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." (Acts 2:47 AV). Who did Peter say the Lord added to the church? Such as should be saved. What does that mean? It means those who listened to Peter and the other apostles preaching the gospel of Christ Jesus (Romans 1:16), and responded to the answer to their question "Men and brethren what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37). Peter told them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins..." Since sin can not enter heaven and the church is a "type" of heaven, sinners can not enter the church. They must first be rid of their past sins by the blood of Christ (Romans 3:25). This is done when one is immersed into Christ (Acts 22:16). The Lord then add to the church, the family of God, those who have taken off the old man of sin, who have become new creations in Christ Jesus through obeying the Gospel(2 Cor. 5:17; Mark 16:15-16).

Verses that help us to see this further...

“For we are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus; For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” (Galatians 3:26-27 AV)

“And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.” (Ephesians 4:24 AV)

“And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him” (Colossians 3:10 AV)

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:3-4 AV)

“And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:10-12 AV)

“The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 3:21 AV)

You make a huge mistake when you say that it is by submitting to the rite of water baptism that the believer is baptized into the body of Christ.Scripture makes it plain that the believer is placed into the Body of Christ by a baptism performed by the Holy Spirit (1Cor.12:13).

It is also obvious that when the believer is baptized into Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit he also is baptized into His death: "As many of us who were BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST were baptized into His death"(Ro.6:2,3).The previous verse that I provided,1Cor.12:13,demonstrates that it is by the Holy Sprit that one is baptized INTO JESUS CHRIST.There is not one verse in all the Scriptures that state that the believer is baptized INTO JESUS CHRIST by a "water baptism".

That is just your imagination working.It is not supported by Scripture.However,it is cannot be any plainer that "by one Spirit were we all baptized into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13).

And those who have been baptized into Christ (the body of Christ) have put on Christ:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek,there is neither bond nor free,there is neither male nor female;for ye are all one IN CHRIST JESUS"(Gal.3:27,28).

So we see that Scripture supports the fact that it is by the Holy Spirit that one is baptized INTO CHRIST.That is the ONE BAPTISM.

And it is IN CHRIST where we receive our life:

"And this is the record,that God hath given to us eternal life,and THAT LIFE IS IN HIS SON"(1Jn.5:11).

"When Christ,WHO IS OUR LIFE,shall appear..."(Col.3:4).

"For we are members of His body,of His flesh,and of His bones"(Eph.5:30).

We are baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit and we "live through Him"(1Jn.4:9).

So Scripture makes it as plain as possible that the ONE BAPTISM is the baptism of the Holy Spirit by which we are baptized into Christ.And it is also by that baptism that the believer receives eternal life.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[smilax]

Originally posted by JustAChristian
Well, let’s see what the whole of the Bible says about that...

Yes, I am trying to derail this thread. In any case, you ignored the verses. Now just to clear up some confusion: there is a difference between sinning and having a sin nature. All I am stating is that children are born with a sin nature, not that they sin, but that they will sin. This view takes all the verses into account. I agree completely: we are responsible for our sins, not Adam's. But Adam's nature is in us, and because of it, we will inevitably sin.

 

[elected4ever]

I have just read a most unusual and ludicrous article equating being born-again with water baptism. One would do well to allow Scripture to interpret scripture. When Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born-again he said that which is flesh is flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit. When he said this he defined water and spiritual birth not water and spiritual baptism. That which is born of water is natural birth. That which is born of spirit is spiritual birth. To say that baptism is the new birth can only be false. Being baptized is not being born again.

Jesus was addressing the scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees. He told them they were whitewashed tombs. He told them that on the outside they performed all the religious rights but on the inside they were as dead men. Jesus said that the cleansing came from the inside out not from the outside in. The religious leaders of Israel put great stock in there religious practices. Having faith in their religious practices to save them, but Jesus said that it was not their supposed religious correctness that made them children of God but a new birth, from the inside out.

The ceremonial washing prescribed by Jewish law that had been given to them by God was not the source of their salvation. The religious law was given as a guide to be obeyed from a heart of faith not in order to produce a heart of faith. The faith had to exist before the performance of the law meant anything. The true Israelite was one of the heart and not of outward expression. It was the heart that produced the obedience. It was not the obedience that produced the heart. That may be hard to understand. One might say that it is just a play on words but I submit that it is the depravity of man that causes him to think opposite of God. It is understandable that mankind wants to think of themselves as being religious, good and forth right persons. Mankind wants to think of them selves as having the ability to please God by their actions. The testimony of Scripture is that man is the enemy of God. Man is totally separated from God. That is what is meant when the Scriptures say that Adam died immediately. Adam lived in his physical body for another 900 years after he sinned in the Garden of Eden. Adam immediately entered into a state of the existence called sin. He died, became separated from God, that very day.

Sin is a state of existence from which acts of sin are committed. All men are born into this state of sin and it is the only thing that every person has in common. No person at conception chooses his or her parents, his or her country or nationality. They do not choose their social status or if their parents are wealthy or poor. They do not choose the color of there skin or if they will be male or female. The circumstance of every birth is different. The only thing common to all births of human kind is that they are born in a state of existence called sin. All men, male and female, are sinners by virtue of birth and as a result all commit acts of sin. It is this state of existence in which people are born that Jesus had to address in order for man to have eternal fellowship with God.

In order for a person to have fellowship with God they must be righteous. They must be as God is in order to have fellowship with God. Since mankind in their natural physical state of existence live there lifes in unrighteousness, they are not in harmony or fellowship with God. In order to be in harmony with God a person must be as God is; sense God himself is the standard by which all mankind will be judged.

What then, is the new birth?

1 John 3:9 -Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

God’s seed is the source of the life in a Christian. Whoever has God’s seed in him is born again. Whoever has that seed in him does not commit sin. The seed of God will forever remain and shall never be taken away and as long as the seed remains it is impossible for a born-again person to sin. We know, being of the human race, that we are sinners by nature. However this is one of the most emphatic statements made in the Scripture. The text states an absolute. Whoever is born of God does not commit sin. Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born-again and that which is spirit is spirit and that which is flash is flash. We have all experienced the flesh birth. And we know that we cannot return to our mother’s womb and be born again in the flesh. With a stroke of common sense we must then deduct that the new birth is the spiritual birth. Was there ever a birth in the flesh of someone born of God’s seed? The answer of course is yes.

The doctrine of the virgin birth of Christ is fundamental to the Christian faith. If one does not believe in the virgin birth of Christ then he cannot be a Christian. There can be no equivocation that the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus in the womb of the Virgin Mary. Jesus, by the testimony of scriptures, is the Son of God in the flesh and is the firstborn among many brethren. Jesus cannot be the Son of God unless he was born of the seed of God. The Holy Spirit gave testimony to Mary that that which was conceived in her was of God. Jesus could not, would not and did not sin because he was born of God in the flesh. As God the Father is so is Jesus. Jesus could not die for His own sin because he had none and He is very God in the flesh. Jesus’ death on the cross was for our sins. Jesus experienced for the first time in eternity a separation from God the Father while still alive in the flesh. The physical death of Christ followed that spiritual death or separation because God the Father visited upon Him the sin of us all. Death could not hold Him and He rose from the dead according to the Scripture. Jesus is no longer dead. He is no longer on the cross. He has risen and is today at the right hand the Father making intercession for us and He will come again as he promised. It is the life of Christ today that is our life. We cannot sin because we are in Christ. We cannot sin because the seed of the Father remains in us. Because as Jesus was born in the flash of the seed of God so are we born again in the spirit and brought into fellowship with God the Father. Unlike Jesus, our flesh has not been born of the seed of God. Our fleshly nature remains because of the seed of man and is subject to the death prescribed, as the wages of sin should the Lord terry. It will be as Paul said, “those of us who are alive and remain shell be changed in the twinkling of an eye and so shell we ever be with the Lord.” In ether case, death or translation, we shell be set free from this body of death.

As circumcision was important to an Israelite so is water baptism important to a Christian. Circumcision had nothing to do with being an Israelite. An Israelite was an Israelite by birth not by circumcision. The circumcision was a sign to the nations that the Israelites were God’s chosen people and as a sign to the nations God commanded that they be circumcised. It was a sign of the covenant between God and Israel. When the nations around Israel circumcised their men God commanded Israel to destroy them because they did not pocess the birth right of Israel. So it is with baptism. Only those who have the birth right of the Kingdome may be baptized. The new birth must exist before baptism can be administered scripturally. Baptism is a sign to the world of the Kingdom of God. Baptism does not make the Christian. The seed of God makes the Christian. As God commanded the Israelites to be circumcised so he has commanded the Christians to baptize. As an Israelite could not participate in the national life off Israel without circumcision so a Christian cannot participate in the life off the Kingdom of God on earth, with out being baptized. Baptism should never be administered to someone who is not a Christian by birth and that birth is a spiritual birth of the seed of the Father not the physical birth of a child to a parent whether Christian are non-Christian. Baptism does not make a Christian. The new birth makes a Christian. Jesus said go into the entire world preaching the gospel, baptizing them in the name off the Father the Son and Holy Spirit. At no place does the Bible ever say I take that commandment back. Baptism then is an act of obedience to the command of Christ for a citizen of the Kingdom of God by birth into the Kingdom, not into the human race.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

I can't believe this thread is still going! Awesome.

 

[JustAChristian]

You Make A Common Mistake...

You Make A Common Mistake...

Originally posted by dan37
I have just read a most unusual and ludicrous article equating being born-again with water baptism. One would do well to allow Scripture to interpret scripture. When Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born-again he said that which is flesh is flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit. When he said this he defined water and spiritual birth not water and spiritual baptism. That which is born of water is natural birth. That which is born of spirit is spiritual birth. To say that baptism is the new birth can only be false. Being baptized is not being born again.

Jesus was addressing the scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees. He told them they were whitewashed tombs. He told them that on the outside they performed all the religious rights but on the inside they were as dead men. Jesus said that the cleansing came from the inside out not from the outside in. The religious leaders of Israel put great stock in there religious practices. Having faith in their religious practices to save them, but Jesus said that it was not their supposed religious correctness that made them children of God but a new birth, from the inside out.

The ceremonial washing prescribed by Jewish law that had been given to them by God was not the source of their salvation. The religious law was given as a guide to be obeyed from a heart of faith not in order to produce a heart of faith. The faith had to exist before the performance of the law meant anything. The true Israelite was one of the heart and not of outward expression. It was the heart that produced the obedience. It was not the obedience that produced the heart. That may be hard to understand. One might say that it is just a play on words but I submit that it is the depravity of man that causes him to think opposite of God. It is understandable that mankind wants to think of themselves as being religious, good and forth right persons. Mankind wants to think of them selves as having the ability to please God by their actions. The testimony of Scripture is that man is the enemy of God. Man is totally separated from God. That is what is meant when the Scriptures say that Adam died immediately. Adam lived in his physical body for another 900 years after he sinned in the Garden of Eden. Adam immediately entered into a state of the existence called sin. He died, became separated from God, that very day.

Sin is a state of existence from which acts of sin are committed. All men are born into this state of sin and it is the only thing that every person has in common. No person at conception chooses his or her parents, his or her country or nationality. They do not choose their social status or if their parents are wealthy or poor. They do not choose the color of there skin or if they will be male or female. The circumstance of every birth is different. The only thing common to all births of human kind is that they are born in a state of existence called sin. All men, male and female, are sinners by virtue of birth and as a result all commit acts of sin. It is this state of existence in which people are born that Jesus had to address in order for man to have eternal fellowship with God.

In order for a person to have fellowship with God they must be righteous. They must be as God is in order to have fellowship with God. Since mankind in their natural physical state of existence live there lifes in unrighteousness, they are not in harmony or fellowship with God. In order to be in harmony with God a person must be as God is; sense God himself is the standard by which all mankind will be judged.

What then, is the new birth?

1 John 3:9 -Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

God’s seed is the source of the life in a Christian. Whoever has God’s seed in him is born again. Whoever has that seed in him does not commit sin. The seed of God will forever remain and shall never be taken away and as long as the seed remains it is impossible for a born-again person to sin. We know, being of the human race, that we are sinners by nature. However this is one of the most emphatic statements made in the Scripture. The text states an absolute. Whoever is born of God does not commit sin. Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born-again and that which is spirit is spirit and that which is flash is flash. We have all experienced the flesh birth. And we know that we cannot return to our mother’s womb and be born again in the flesh. With a stroke of common sense we must then deduct that the new birth is the spiritual birth. Was there ever a birth in the flesh of someone born of God’s seed? The answer of course is yes.

The doctrine of the virgin birth of Christ is fundamental to the Christian faith. If one does not believe in the virgin birth of Christ then he cannot be a Christian. There can be no equivocation that the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus in the womb of the Virgin Mary. Jesus, by the testimony of scriptures, is the Son of God in the flesh and is the firstborn among many brethren. Jesus cannot be the Son of God unless he was born of the seed of God. The Holy Spirit gave testimony to Mary that that which was conceived in her was of God. Jesus could not, would not and did not sin because he was born of God in the flesh. As God the Father is so is Jesus. Jesus could not die for His own sin because he had none and He is very God in the flesh. Jesus’ death on the cross was for our sins. Jesus experienced for the first time in eternity a separation from God the Father while still alive in the flesh. The physical death of Christ followed that spiritual death or separation because God the Father visited upon Him the sin of us all. Death could not hold Him and He rose from the dead according to the Scripture. Jesus is no longer dead. He is no longer on the cross. He has risen and is today at the right hand the Father making intercession for us and He will come again as he promised. It is the life of Christ today that is our life. We cannot sin because we are in Christ. We cannot sin because the seed of the Father remains in us. Because as Jesus was born in the flash of the seed of God so are we born again in the spirit and brought into fellowship with God the Father. Unlike Jesus, our flesh has not been born of the seed of God. Our fleshly nature remains because of the seed of man and is subject to the death prescribed, as the wages of sin should the Lord terry. It will be as Paul said, “those of us who are alive and remain shell be changed in the twinkling of an eye and so shell we ever be with the Lord.” In ether case, death or translation, we shell be set free from this body of death.

As circumcision was important to an Israelite so is water baptism important to a Christian. Circumcision had nothing to do with being an Israelite. An Israelite was an Israelite by birth not by circumcision. The circumcision was a sign to the nations that the Israelites were God’s chosen people and as a sign to the nations God commanded that they be circumcised. It was a sign of the covenant between God and Israel. When the nations around Israel circumcised their men God commanded Israel to destroy them because they did not pocess the birth right of Israel. So it is with baptism. Only those who have the birth right of the Kingdome may be baptized. The new birth must exist before baptism can be administered scripturally. Baptism is a sign to the world of the Kingdom of God. Baptism does not make the Christian. The seed of God makes the Christian. As God commanded the Israelites to be circumcised so he has commanded the Christians to baptize. As an Israelite could not participate in the national life off Israel without circumcision so a Christian cannot participate in the life off the Kingdom of God on earth, with out being baptized. Baptism should never be administered to someone who is not a Christian by birth and that birth is a spiritual birth of the seed of the Father not the physical birth of a child to a parent whether Christian are non-Christian. Baptism does not make a Christian. The new birth makes a Christian. Jesus said go into the entire world preaching the gospel, baptizing them in the name off the Father the Son and Holy Spirit. At no place does the Bible ever say I take that commandment back. Baptism then is an act of obedience to the command of Christ for a citizen of the Kingdom of God by birth into the Kingdom, not into the human race.

Can you find one person who was in the kingdom before they were baptized? Search the New Testament. Find one example and you have won your case. He or she must have been added to the Kingdom before they were baptized (immersed in water for the remission of sins), and must be irrefutably shown to be in the Kingdom of Christ (Col. 1:13) prior to his or her baptism.

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[HopeofGlory]

Dan,

Great post!

One problem though, water baptism is not a sign of what we believe but the greater witness of God is the only sign that we must receive. Salvation is not in obedience of the flesh but is a operation of God when we believe in the finished work of Christ at the cross. Water baptism is a old testament sign...For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 1 Cor. 1:22 (KJV). But (note the contrast) we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1 Cor. 1:23
Signs were nothing more than a shadow of things to come and are no longer needed after Christ (THE REAL THING) suffered and shed His blood for our sins. Praise God!!!!!!!!

But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: Matt. 12:39 (KJV)
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matt. 12:40 (KJV)

The words of Jesus testify to the truth...."and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas". The ONLY SIGN will be the death and resurrection of Jesus but many say no that's not true by including water baptism as a sign.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)

Baptism into His death is received by faith in believing He died in our place and it has nothing to do with water.

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor. 1:18 (KJV)
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 1 Cor. 1:19 (KJV)

One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph. 4:5

ONE baptism, how is it that you speak of two?

In Christ
Craig

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JustAChristian,

Scripture reveals that Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized.The Holy Spirit fell upon them after they had believed but before they were baptized with water:

"Can any man forbid water,that these should not be baptized,who have RECIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT as well as we?"(Acts10:47).

The fact that they had received the Holy Spirit before being baptized with water proves that their sins had been removed without the water baptism.And that is because the Holy Spirit would not fall upon a person who remained in their sins:

"But your iniquities have seperated between you and your God,and your sins have hidden His face from you,that He will not hear"(Isa.59:2).

So it is obvious that Cornelius and his household had their sins taken away BEFORE THEY WERE BAPTIZED.

It was belief in the gospel that saved them,and the baptism with water followed their salvation.Peter was sent to tell them "the words" by which they would "be saved"(Acts11:14).And after believing the words which he spoke to them they recived the Holy Spirit and had their sins removed and were saved--and all this before a drop of water even touched them.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Apollos]

The events IN ORDER...

The events IN ORDER...

Hey Jerry -

Your last posts has -2- major flaws that you will not be able to deal with.

1.) HS baptism was NEVER for salvation, nevertheless for remission of sins. You will not be able to produce ONE passage that shows HS baptism SAVED anyone or remitted their sins - or that HS baptism was ever commanded for such !! This is a big problem for you !!! You only ASSUME this !!

2.) Now please go to Acts 11 and read how Peter explains IN ORDER (verse 4) the events of Acts 10 to the Jews.

In particular notice 11:15 - "And as I began to speak..."

Please note that the HS fell upon them BEFORE the "words whereby they would be saved" were delivered. Thus even before Cornelius and household received the saving words the HS came upon them.

Had you taken the time to read accurately what Luke reveals in his letter, you could have avoided these major mistakes !!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Apollos,

Even John the Baptist spoke of the time when the Lord Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit:

"I,indeed,baptize you with water unto repentance,but He that cometh after me is mightier than I,whose shoes I am not worthy to bear;He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit"(Mt.3:11).

But you seem to be under the impression that someone is saved when they are baptized with water,but they are not saved when they are baptized with the Holy Spirit!

In other words,the baptism that man is able to perform,the rite of "water baptism",can save a man but the baptism that the Lord Jesus Himself performs cannot!

And you speak of the FLAWS in my reasoning.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[elected4ever]

Jerry-AMEN & AMEN

 

[HopeofGlory]

The fact that Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before water baptism shows that God had accepted the Gentiles without the Law. At Pentecost obedience to water baptism was required before receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

As Peter said...Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Acts 10:34
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:35

Compare to the Pentecostal occurrence:

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32

There is only ONE baptism for today and it is by the Spirit not water yet water baptism was require for remission of sins in the early chruch that began with the Baptist (Mark 1:4).

The fact that Peter commanded a Gentile to be water baptized does nothing to prove the need for water baptism today. This is a clear indication of a dispensational change. Jesus instructed the apostles in the gospel of the kingdom as the Baptist taught (Mark 1:4) yet He instructed them to NOT go to the Gentiles (Matt 10:5).

 

[JustAChristian]

If Holy Spirit Is the Baptism Of Eph. 4:5...

If Holy Spirit Is the Baptism Of Eph. 4:5...

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
The fact that Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before water baptism shows that God had accepted the Gentiles without the Law. At Pentecost obedience to water baptism was required before receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

As Peter said...Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Acts 10:34
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:35

Compare to the Pentecostal occurrence:

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32

There is only ONE baptism for today and it is by the Spirit not water yet water baptism was require for remission of sins in the early chruch that began with the Baptist (Mark 1:4).

The fact that Peter commanded a Gentile to be water baptized does nothing to prove the need for water baptism today. This is a clear indication of a dispensational change. Jesus instructed the apostles in the gospel of the kingdom as the Baptist taught (Mark 1:4) yet He instructed them to NOT go to the Gentiles (Matt 10:5).

Hope,

Since baptism must be obeyed (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47), how does one obey Holy Spirit Baptism? What is the steps to take to have the Holy Spirit baptism?

JustAChristian :thumb:

 

[HopeofGlory]

Re: If Holy Spirit Is the Baptism Of Eph. 4:5...

Re: If Holy Spirit Is the Baptism Of Eph. 4:5...

Just,

Water baptism under the law had to be obeyed and we are not under the law. Paul said that Christ "sent me NOT to baptize" because he understood that is was by the obedience of one (Rom. 5:19) so that the gift may be free (Rom. 5:18). You can't obey Holy Spirit baptism, it is a free gift. There are no steps because it does not require righteous works (Titus 3:5). :thumb:

In Christ
Craig

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: If Holy Spirit Is the Baptism Of Eph. 4:5...

Re: Re: If Holy Spirit Is the Baptism Of Eph. 4:5...

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
Just,

Water baptism under the law had to be obeyed and we are not under the law. Paul said that Christ "sent me NOT to baptize" because he understood that is was by the obedience of one (Rom. 5:19) so that the gift may be free (Rom. 5:18). You can't obey Holy Spirit baptism, it is a free gift. There are no steps because it does not require righteous works (Titus 3:5). :thumb:

In Christ
Craig

Where do you find water baptism commanded under the Law? John's baptism was not under the Law. It was during the despensation of the Law of Moses, but was never a part of the Law. Jesus' baptism was not under the Law as well. The Law did not contain any ordinances concerning baptism. This is what brought John under fire of the Pharisees.

There is a baptism to be obeyed unto salvation (Mark 16:16). You can not put this under the Law for the Law of Moses had no ordinances for baptism. The Law of Christ began at Pentecost. Peter preached baptism for the remission of sins. The apostles were to teach this same gospel throughout all the world beginning at Jerusalem (Luke 24:47). It is the same thing that Paul is teaching here; the gospel is that which is to be preached. Philip preached unto the eunuch "Jesus". To preach Jesus is to preach the Gospel. The Gospel contains that which the believer must do in order to be saved (Matthew 28:18-20).

To say that Paul was not sent to baptize is to discredit the Gospel, the Power of God unto salvation and cause souls to be lost who do not obey it. When Paul made this statement in Corinth, his intent was to place emphesis in the right order. Preaching comes before baptism. The Corinthians had it backwards.

You are right! You can't obey Holy Spirit baptism. But, there is one that can be obeyed. It is the one that washes away sins (Acts 22:16), and put one into Christ (Gal. 3:27). It is the one by which we are saved (1 Peter 3:19-21). It is the one commanded to the house of Cornelius (Acts 10:47). It is the one the eunuch answered to when he said "See here is water. What doth it hender me to be baptized?(Acts 8:37). It is immersion for the remission of sins.

We are not saved by works done in righteousness (Titus 3:4,5). Everyone should know that. Then what saves? It is through the laver or washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit. We listen to the Spirit through the word. Then we go down into the laver where we are washed of sins by the blood of Christ, and then we are said to be saved by the mercy of God. It is of regeneration or new birth. One mentions "water" while the other mentions "washing." The Spirit is active in both. The truth is clear, we are born again in baptism as we heed the Holyh Spirit through the word of God.

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[HopeofGlory]

Re: Re: Re: If Holy Spirit Is the Baptism Of Eph. 4:5...

Re: Re: Re: If Holy Spirit Is the Baptism Of Eph. 4:5...

Originally posted by JustAChristian
Where do you find water baptism commanded under the Law? John's baptism was not under the Law. It was during the despensation of the Law of Moses, but was never a part of the Law. Jesus' baptism was not under the Law as well. The Law did not contain any ordinances concerning baptism. This is what brought John under fire of the Pharisees.

Maimonides (1135-1204), a Jewish codifier of the Torah :

"By three things did Israel enter into the Covenant: by circumcision, and baptism and sacrifice. Circumcision was in Egypt, as it is written: 'No uncircumcised person shall eat thereof' (Exodus 12:48). "Baptism" was in the wilderness, just before giving of the Law, as it is written: 'Sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes' (Exodus 19:10).

There is a baptism to be obeyed unto salvation (Mark 16:16).

There "was" a baptism that had to be obeyed unto salvation.
We have a new message and it comfirms salvation is by the obedience of One (Rom. 5:19).

You can not put this under the Law for the Law of Moses had no ordinances for baptism.

Maimonides a Jewish codifier of the "law" disagrees. Ananias a devout man according to the "law" reflects the same belief (Acts 22:12, 16).

The Law of Christ began at Pentecost. Peter preached baptism for the remission of sins.

Peter preached a batism of repentance for remission (Mark 1:4) as did Peter (Acts 2:38).

The apostles were to teach this same gospel throughout all the world beginning at Jerusalem (Luke 24:47).

Yes, Jesus commanded the apostles to teach the world but Peter did not reflect that belief concerning Cornelius (Acts 10:28).
How is it then that Peter understood the commission?

It is the same thing that Paul is teaching here; the gospel is that which is to be preached. Philip preached unto the eunuch "Jesus". To preach Jesus is to preach the Gospel. The Gospel contains that which the believer must do in order to be saved (Matthew 28:18-20).

Salvation has always been possible in every dispensation of the gospel but with every dispensational change the message must also change. Circumcision began with Abraham and the law with Moses but neither are effectual today.

Peter said...he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted... Acts 10:35

Paul said...Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5

Peter preached washing with water but Paul said it is by the Holy Ghost.

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; Gal. 2:7

To say that Paul was not sent to baptize is to discredit the Gospel, the Power of God unto salvation and cause souls to be lost who do not obey it. When Paul made this statement in Corinth, his intent was to place emphesis in the right order. Preaching comes before baptism. The Corinthians had it backwards.

Paul by the Spirit said "Christ sent me NOT to baptize" (1Cor 1:17) and in his next breath Paul said "the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God"(1 Cor. 1:18).

You are right! You can't obey Holy Spirit baptism.

Exactly, baptism is no longer a righteous work of men but is an operation of God (Col 2:12).

But, there is one that can be obeyed. It is the one that washes away sins (Acts 22:16), and put one into Christ (Gal. 3:27). It is the one by which we are saved (1 Peter 3:19-21). It is the one commanded to the house of Cornelius (Acts 10:47). It is the one the eunuch answered to when he said "See here is water. What doth it hender me to be baptized?(Acts 8:37). It is immersion for the remission of sins.

By mixing dispensational messages you will never come to the knowledge of the truth.

We are not saved by works done in righteousness (Titus 3:4,5). Everyone should know that. Then what saves?

Any act that a man can perform is a work and water baptism was a work of righteousness which is no longer effectual. Today the washing is by the Holy Ghost who is the power of God. The Holy Ghost reveals the word and when the word enters the heart of sinners it cleanes them on the inside. The new man (Eph 2:15) is created by the word of God as it was in the begining and the circumcision made without hands (Col 2:11) separates the new creature (2Cor 5:17) from the flesh. There is no "what" that saves, it is the power of God that saves.

It is through the laver or washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit. We listen to the Spirit through the word. Then we go down into the laver where we are washed of sins by the blood of Christ, and then we are said to be saved by the mercy of God. It is of regeneration or new birth. One mentions "water" while the other mentions "washing." The Spirit is active in both. The truth is clear, we are born again in baptism as we heed the Holyh Spirit through the word of God.

We are born again by the word of God and washed by that word. The washing of the flesh is not needed.

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph. 5:26
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:27

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.1 Pet. 1:23
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 1 Pet. 1:24

In Christ
Craig

 

[elected4ever]

Just the Christian, you say that a person is born-again by water baptism. Well let us see what would happen if what you were saying is true. First of all, a person who is born of God does not commit sin and neither can he commit sin because the seed of God remains in him. If baptism, which is administered to the flesh by a human being, is a new birth as described in 1John 3: 9, then it must be true that no one who is baptized in water can commit sin. There is no way that an act committed in the flesh can in any way change the spirit from a position separated from God to a position in harmony with God.

I see so many flaw in your belief system that I truly believe that you are a Christian religionist and not a born-again believer. At least those who profess Derbyism (dispensationalist) have it right when it comes to the way of salvation. It is evident to me that you don’t even know how to be saved. So why you have chosen your name is beyond me.

When you can prove that you do not commit sin in the flesh then you will have convinced me that water baptism is the new birth. I will give you the benefit of a doubt and say that you’re not saved. Because you have not believed the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, any opinion submitted by you on any subject concerning the life of a Christian is in great doubt and I’ll not respond further to you until you can explain to me how you were saved if indeed you are. I charge you therefore to come out from among the evil workers of darkness and embrace the Light which is Christ. This may not be easy for you since I see many religious hurdles in your life and thinking that have blinded you to the truth. It is my desire and the desire of my Father in heaven that you should be saved.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JustAChristian,

Earlier you provided several verses which you believe teaches that submitting to a rite of "water baptism" is necessary for salation.Over the next several days I will address every one of those verses and demonstrate that your conclusion is in error.I will begin with Mark 16:16.

“He that believth and is baptized shall be saved;but he that believeth not shall be damned”(Mk.16:16).

This verse is not giving the CONDITIONS for salvation.Instead,the Lord Jesus is describing those who will be saved.The Lord knows that those who truly believe will follow His command to be baptized.But He is not saying that submitting to a rite of water baptism is condition for salvtion.Please consider the words of the Lord Jesus in the following verse where he also describes those who will be saved,i.e.,”shall inherit everlasting life”:

“And every one who hath forsaken houses,or brethren,or sisters,or father,or mother or wife,or children,or lands,for My Name´s sake,shall receive an hundredfold,and shall inherit everlasting life”(Mt.19:29).

Are we to believe that a “condition” of salvation is to forsake a close relative?No,the Lord is merely describing some of those who will do these things but in no way is He making these things a “condition” to obtain salvation.

And at Mark 16:16 the Lord is not making submitting to a rite of water baptism a condition of salvation.He is merely describing those who will be saved.

In His grace,--Jerry