beloved57
Well-known member
I know you dishonor Christ's Blood, and teach people it was shed for are lost !
The Gospel Verses Predestination
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
I know you dishonor Christ's Blood, and teach people it was shed for are lost !
beloved57
Well-known member
Its not Gospel to teach sinners Christ died for are lost regardless !
Did you post that, or did God do it?
Jesus only saves those that call upon him, Romans 10:13.
Its not that complicated, but you make it complicated. It is so simple that even little children can hear and believe.
beloved57
Well-known member
Maybe you didnt read and understand:
Its not Gospel to teach sinners Christ died for are lost regardless !
I agree with the gist of this post. The gospel can be described in a few short sentences, such that it is accessible to all. In-depth theological descriptions should not overturn or unnecessarily complicated the plain gospel.
For instance, all men are sinners, but those who confess Jesus as Lord will be saved.
The simple reading is that men can be saved if they choose Christ.
If a theology seems to remove man's will, that undermines the gospel. If that theology has complicated descriptions and divisions of will to allow men to choose, despite God having decreed all, that undermines its credibility.
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beloved57
Well-known member
You teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost also. If you do that undermines the efficacy of the Saving Blood of Christ and becomes a false gospel.
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Quit with the straw man arguments.
Yes, we teach that sinners whom Christ died for are still lost, but only because A) they haven't yet accepted His free gift of salvation, or B) they reject His free gift of salvation.
Only in your head, and only because you're not getting the big picture.
The purpose of religion, especially the Calvinist religion is to subvert the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to make it of no effect. This has always been Satan's plan from the beginning. Calvinist hate John 3:16 because John 3:16 is the Gospel in a nut shell. "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son". Is the last thing that a Calvinist wants to hear. They want us to believe that God loves no one except for the few that think that they have been predestinated.
When told that salvation is a free gift from God, Romans 5:15-18, they become hysterical. Worst yet when told that salvation has been provided for everyone by Jesus Christ, Hebrews 2:9, their brain becomes unhinged and they start foaming at the mouth. And then they claim that they believe the Bible, they don't believe the Bible. If they believed the Bible they would renounce Calvinism and embrace Christ and his Gospel.
You struggle with observation, don't you.
If you simply read the Bible without bringing your biased presuppositions, you would end up agreeing with Calvin. But, you cannot do so. You start with a presupposition and then force the Bible to fit your presupposition.
I suggest you attempt an inductive Bible study.
1) Observe what you read in scripture. Write down all your observations without trying to interpret.
2) Question your observations. Ask questions about what you are reading.
3) Interpret by seeking to answer the questions you have about what you observe.
4) Create application about what you observe and interpret.
5) Check to see what others have to say. If you came up with something no one else believes...there is a good reason no one else believes it.
Notice, RP, that any thoughts from Calvin or any other commenter come after you do the work yourself.
You have this utterly foolish notion that people are reading Calvin and not the Bible. Not true. We read the Bible and observe. What we find is that Calvin agrees with our observations regarding soteriology.
I doubt you have ever done an inductive study of scripture in all your life. You have been taught by someone who was screwed up and you just sucked it up like a dumb sponge.
I believe the Bible to be the word of God. I don't try to change what it says with my own reasoning. Calvinist like many other religions try to make the bible fit what they believe instead of letting the bible speak for its self. I don't belong to a church nor do I support any particular denomination. I don't have any biased presuppositions, but you do. You have allowed the teachings of a heretic to determine what you believe. The Bible was not enough for you, you wanted something more, so God gave you a delusion, 2 Thessalonians 2:11.
You may read the Bible and observe, but you don't read the Bible and believe. Because you don't believe that Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2, indicates that you don't have faith in him. Worst of all to believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are ever born shows that you believe that God is unjust, which means that you don't really have faith in God. So, it is very evident that you don't have faith in God nor do you have faith in Christ. What you do have faith in are the teachings of a heretic called John Calvin.
beloved57
Well-known member
The scripture doesnt teach that Christ death failed to save sinners He died for.
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RP, I have shared passages of scripture, in context. I took the time to share both passages from 1 Timothy and 2 Peter. I let the Bible speak for itself. You reject what the Bible says, in its context, and pick short sentences, out of context to build your heresy. I dare you to read the Bible in context and allow God to speak while you shut up.
Says the one who cannot provide one verse that says that a sinner cannot humble himself before God, and the one who rejects that Isaiah 45:4 clearly states that Israel is God's elect, even though it literally says "Israel My elect."
Is a sinner spiritually alive or dead in their trespasses and sins?
The answer to that is the answer to your question.
But, you demand an exact verse because you imagine it makes your heresy legitimate.
Are you trying to say that a spiritually dead person is dead physically? Because if you're saying that, I'm gonna start thinking you're not too smart.
Even spiritually dead people are alive physically, their consciousness isn't dead, they can still function as a normal human being.
Menno, you say what I believe is heresy, yet you won't even answer my question with a straight answer.
A spiritually dead person is still alive physically. So my question remains, can a sinner, who is still alive physically (even if dead spiritually) humble himself before God?
Here's what Jesus says:
and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me. - Matthew 18:3-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew18:3-5&version=NKJV
And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. - Matthew 23:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew23:12&version=NKJV
For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” - Luke 14:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke14:11&version=NKJV
And another verse:
A man’s pride will bring him low, But the humble in spirit will retain honor. - Proverbs 29:23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs29:23&version=NKJV
So can a sinner humble himself and recognize that he is dead spiritually, and ask God to regenerate him?
I'm saying that a spiritually dead person is self-centered, self-righteous and self-serving. God has not humbled them. They can only beat their bodies into submission by disciplining themselves. They have a form of godliness with no spiritual power. Just like you.
No. God, the Sovereign King, is the decider of whom He will regenerate. Read Ephesians 2:1-10. Keep reading it and beg God to make you alive in Christ. Perhaps He will be gracious and give you life.
Everyone that was saved in the New Testament were saved because they heard and believed the Gospel, Romans 10:17. There is no scripture that says predestination saves. On the day of Pentecost 8,000 Jews heard Peter's Gospel and believed, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4.
Some hear the Gospel and believe, some hear the Gospel and don't believe, Hebrews 4:2. This is the way that it is. It is hearing and believing the Gospel that brings the Holy Spirit and makes us alive, Galatians 3:2.
You are working hard to pretzel out of your dilemma by demanding that God state exactly what you demand. Meanwhile God says this:
Ephesians 1:4-5
[4]Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.
[5]God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.
I'm not sure how you get around what God clearly says, so I look forward to your butchered pretzel attempt.