The fossil record shows there never was evolution.

Sonnet

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Earth in Upheaval - Velikovsky


Chapter II

The Aquatic Graveyards
The Old Red Sandstone is regarded as one of the oldest strata with signs of extinct life in it. No animal life higher than fish is found there. Whatever the age of this formation, it carries the testimony and "a wonderful record of violent death falling at once, not on a few individuals, but on whole tribes."

In the late thirties of the last century Hugh Miller made the Old Red Sandstone in Scotland the special subject of his investigations. He observed: "The earth had already become a vast sepulchre, to a depth beneath the bed of the sea equal to at least twice the height of Ben Nevis over its surface." Ben Nevis in the Grampian Mountains is the highest peak in Great Britain, 4406 feet high. The stratum of the Old Red Sandstone is twice as thick (1.66 miles).

This formation presents the spectacle of an upheaval immobilized at a particular moment and petrified forever. Hugh Miller wrote:

"The first scene in [Shakespeare's] The Tempest opens amid the confusion and turmoil of the hurricane—amid thunders and lightnings, the roar of the wind, the shouts of the seamen, the rattling of cordage, and the wild dash of the billows. The history of the period represented by the Old Red Sandstone seems, in what now forms the northern half of Scotland, to have opened in a similar manner. . . . The vast space which now includes Orkney and Loch Ness, Dingwall and Gamrie (Gardenstown, East coast), and many a thousand square miles besides, was the scene of a shallow ocean, perplexed by powerful currents, and agitated by waves. A vast stratum of water-rolled pebbles, varying in depth from a hundred feet to a hundred yards, remains in a thousand different localities, to testify of the disturbing agencies of this time of commotion." Miller found that the hardest masses in the stratum—"porphyries of vitreous fracture that cut glass as readily as flint, and masses of quartz that strike fire quite as profusely from steel,—are yet polished and ground down into bullet-like forms. . . . And yet it is surely difficult to conceive how the bottom of any sea should have been so violently and so equally agitated for so greatly extended a space . . • and for a period so prolonged, that the entire area should have come to be covered with a stratum of rolled pebbles of almost every variety of ancient rock, fifteen stories' height in thickness." (Hugh Miller. The Old Red Sandstone (Boston, 1865; first published In England in 1841).

In the red sandstone an abundant aquatic fauna is embedded. The animals are in disturbed positions. At the period of the past when these formations were composed, "some terrible catastrophe involved in sudden destruction the fish of an area at least a hundred miles from boundary to boundary, perhaps much more. The same platform in Orkney as at Cromarty is strewed thick with remains, which exhibit unequivocally the marks of violent death. The figures are contorted, contracted, curved; the tail in many instances is bent around to the head; the spines stick out; the fins arc spread to the full, as in fish that die in convulsions. The Pterichthys (an extinct fishlike animal with wlngllke projections and with the anterior of the body encased in bony plates) shows its arms extended at their stiffest angle, as if prepared for an enemy. The attitudes of all the ichthyolites [any fossil fish] on this platform are attitudes of fear, anger and pain. The remains, too, appear to have suffered nothing from the after-attacks of predaceous fishes; none such seem to have survived. The record is one of destruction at once widely spread and total. ..."

What agency of destruction could have accounted for "innumerable existences of an area perhaps ten thousand square miles in extent [being] annihilated at once"? "Conjecture lacks footing in grappling with the enigma, and expatiates in uncertainty over all the known phenomena of death," wrote Miller.

The ravages of no disease, however virulent, could explain some of the phenomena of this arena of death. Rarely does disease fall equally on many different genera at once, and never does it strike with instantaneous suddenness; yet in the ruins of this platform from ten to twelve distinct genera and many species were involved; and so suddenly did the agency perform its work that its victims were fixed in their first attitude of surprise and terror.

The area of the Old Red Sandstone investigated by Miller comprises one half of Scotland, from Loch Ness to the land's northern extremity and beyond to the Orkney Islands in the north. "A thousand different localities" disclose the same scene of destruction.

An identical picture can be found in many other places all around the world, in similar and dissimilar formations. Of Monte Bolca, near Verona in northern Italy, Buckland wrote: "The circumstances under which the fossil fishes are found at Monte Bolca seem to indicate that they perished suddenly. . . . The skeletons of these fish lie parallel to the laminae of the strata of the calcareous slate; they are always entire, and closely packed on one another. . . . All these fishes must have died suddenly . . . and have been speedily buried in the calcareous sediment then in the course of deposition. From the fact that certain individuals have even preserved traces of colour upon their skin, we are certain that they were entombed before decomposition of their soft parts had taken place.

The same author wrote about the fish deposits in the area of the Harz Mountains in Germany: "Another celebrated deposit of fossil fishes is that of the cupriferous slate surrounding the Harz. Many of the fishes of this slate at Mansfeld, Eisleben, etc., have a distorted attitude, which has often been assigned to writhing in the agonies of death. . . . As these fossil fishes maintain the attitude of the rigid stage immediately succeeding death, it follows that they were buried before
putrefaction had commenced, and apparently in the same bituminous mud, the influx of which had caused their destruction."

The story of agony and sudden death and immediate encasing is told by the red sandstone of Scotland; the limestone of Monte Bolca in Lombardy; the bituminous slate of Mansfeld in Thuringia; and also by the coal formation of Saarbrucken on the Saar, "the most celebrated deposits of fossil fishes in Europe"; the calcareous slate of Solenhofen; the blue slate of Glarus; the marlstone of Oensingen in Switzerland and of Aix-in-Provence, to mention only a few of the better-known sites in Europe.

In North America similar strata, "packed full of splendidly preserved fishes," are found in the black limestone of Ohio and Michigan, in the Green River bed of Arizona, the diatom beds of Lompoc, California, and in many other formations.
In cataclysms of early ages fishes died in agony; and the sand and the gravel of the upthrust sea bottom covered the aquatic graveyards.
 

Caino

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Caino...... Your biology question was shown to be nonsense so you deflect with both ad hominem and trying to move goal posts.

We can talk about AIG....or geology. But your question about difference between people groups was nonsense. Science has shown God's Word to be correct...We are all one blood. White people are not more highly evolved than blacks as Darwin believed. And women are not inferior to men as Darwin implied.

No, you are impressed by your own ignorant claims from horriblechristianapologetics.com that one race of people can have babies that are another race of people. But I highly suspect that if your wife had a child from another race you would be off to have a paternity test done rather than glorifying God!




I said nothing about Darwin or inferior women.
 

Sonnet

New member
No, you are impressed by your own ignorant claims from horriblechristianapologetics.com that one race of people can have babies that are another race of people. But I highly suspect that if your wife had a child from another race you would be off to have a paternity test done rather than glorifying God!




I said nothing about Darwin or inferior women.

Please clarify your point.
 

Caino

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Banned
"Either" I suppose a third option is in order: You don't retain or initially understand what you are reading. Genesis 11 should have given you pause.

All of us with few exceptions: Christians, atheists, agnostics, 'other'


The peoples of the earth were dispersed. Are you suggesting I'm not related to Orientals? Africans? You posted the odd pictures as if they couldn't possibly be from Noah. Are you joining Darwin at that point and suggesting there are inferior evolutionary races? :think:
Everybody on TOL thinks you are odd. I realize you and the other UB folks can't understand that. Were you a Mormon like Free?

All humans are related, just not from Noah's family after the vastly exaggerated local flood legend. But you seem like a reasonably intelligent person, I just wanted to hear you say that all the races of the earth came from a Jewish ancestor while calling me odd.


I chose Australian aboriginal babies coming from a Hasidic Jewish dude just for effect because they have been in Australia for 70,000 years while the Hebrews were making up exaggerated YEC stories about themselves. Later generations of priest would call those writings the Word of God, a form of idolatry.
 

Caino

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Geologists place the Old Red Sandstone in the Devonian period - 360-410mya.

Thoughts?
Yes, the earth is very old and has been host to many epochs of evolutionary history long before man came onto the scene a relative short time ago.


I believe God is the creator of life via the process of evolution.
 

Caino

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Evidence for the Devonian age?



Which God?


1) A study of radiometric dating techniques will help you understand why you don't need to fear living anywhere near a nuclear power plant.....apart from human error, like the human error contained within the YEC narrative of the Hebrews. http://asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html

2) The God who created life via the process of evolution. There is only one and his subordinates.
 

6days

New member
Also, when did the Jews start having the babies of the different races in the world, and why wouldn't that count as a sudden, evolutionary mutation? And is there any reason the ancient Chineses dynasties, or any other culture for that matter, don't remember being related to the Jews???
The answers are all in God's Word Caino.
 

6days

New member
Geologists place the Old Red Sandstone in the Devonian period - 360-410mya.

Thoughts?
Correction...... The majority of geologists, rejecting God's Word, date the sandstone millions of years old. Geologists who accept God's Word as absolute truth date the sandstone at just a few thousand years.
 

6days

New member
No, you are impressed by your own ignorant claims from horriblechristianapologetics.com that one race of people can have babies that are another race of people.....I said nothing about Darwin or inferior women.
Your beliefs are similar to racist beliefs held by Darwin....beliefs proven wrong by science. White people are not more highly evolved than dark skin people.

Christ shed His blood for all people...their skin color and physical appearance is not what God looks at.
 

Caino

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Your beliefs are similar to racist beliefs held by Darwin....beliefs proven wrong by science. White people are not more highly evolved than dark skin people.

Christ shed His blood for all people...their skin color and physical appearance is not what God looks at.

:rotfl:I didn't say any such thing, you are arguing against a point that I didn't make because you cant deal with the absurd claim (the only point I made) that Noah's kids had babies of a different race other than their parents. Again, why isn't that sudden evolutionary mutation not more prominently discussed among the YEC creationist that disparage old earth evolution?
 

Caino

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Correction...... The majority of geologists, rejecting God's Word, date the sandstone millions of years old. Geologists who accept God's Word as absolute truth date the sandstone at just a few thousand years.

That's great! One of those two groups has a bias, which one hummmm:think:
 

Jose Fly

New member
They certainly caved in to pressure.

So your argument is that it is standard practice for an editor of a scientific journal to publish a paper that is outside the journal's subject matter, is controversial, review it himself, and not inform the journal's board at all, all on his way out the door (he's resigned 6 months prior). And when the board of any journal says otherwise, they're lying.

Do you have any actual evidence to back that up?

Nobody said it is common practice for a secular journal to publish an article from a known Intelligent Design scientist. The common practice is to not even look at such articles.

And your evidence for that is.........?

And, There actually was a 4th reviewer...Sternberg himself is an evolutionary biologist with 2 PhD's.... and he was not a ID believer.

He's most certainly a creationist. He sits on the board of a young-earth creationist baraminology group.

Much more was said on the topic than that one quote. I said that entire books have been written on the topic answering the question.

So which is it....can "genetic information" be measured or not? As I showed, you previously said it couldn't.

I also answered you with a question.... I asked you if the human genome contains more genetic information than that of the whisk fern. I believe you dodged that question.

Well yeah, because I'm not the one running around making claims about relative amounts of "genetic information". :duh:

Jose...If I haven't given you book titles, or links before on how to measure genetic information, or genetic variation...Please ask. :)

So you were wrong or lying before when you said it couldn't be measured? :idunno:

Or have you creationists talked yourselves in circles so much, you can't even keep your talking points straight?
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Let me make sure I have this straight:
1. The flood reported in Genesis was actually a series of Tsunamis triggered by asteroids. Though the Biblical text doesn't actually say this, there is nothing in the Biblical text that contradicts it.
2. The fossil record that we see is a result of these Tsunamis.
3. The accepted geological chronology is off by 5 or 6 orders of magnitude.

Do I have this right?
That is pretty close to the way I see it, thought there are additional forces that are involved, such as soil liquefaction that are never included in modern simulations of the asteroid impacts.

And, two questions:
1. Are there animals that lived pre-flood and are now extinct?
Yes, you have heard of the Dodo and the Passenger Pigeon, right?
2. Were many of these extinct animals driven to extinction by the Tsunamis?
Most of them were driven to extinction by mankind after the flood.
The dinosaurs are the most notable kinds that this happened to, the extinction happened while they were still known as dragons.
 

Lon

Well-known member
All humans are related, just not from Noah's family after the vastly exaggerated local flood legend. But you seem like a reasonably intelligent person, I just wanted to hear you say that all the races of the earth came from a Jewish ancestor while calling me odd.
What makes you think Noah wasn't black? Yellow? Red? White? I've no idea what the race looked like before God separated peoples.


I chose Australian aboriginal babies coming from a Hasidic Jewish dude just for effect because they have been in Australia for 70,000 years while the Hebrews were making up exaggerated YEC stories about themselves. Later generations of priest would call those writings the Word of God, a form of idolatry.
How absurd something is, depends on how well you studied in the first place. If not too well, like I believe here, then of course the answer of that one will also be absurd, and more so likely.
 

6days

New member
That's great! One of those two groups has a bias, which one hummmm:think:
Don't be goofy Caino. :) Do you think anyone is a blank slate? Everyone has a bias. Some trust the inerrant word of God. Some think that materialism is absolute. Some think they can mesh two opposing belief systems. But, your goofy comments about races of people has been proven wrong by science.... and proven wrong by God's Word.
 
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