The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

Z Man

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Originally posted by Rational Human
of course you don't want to argue this point as doing so would clearly negate you view of creation. If it can be proven that the world is older than 6000 years, as creationists argue it is, then that would also disprove your theory of creation, a major foundation block for religious belief.
Look, I really don't care how long the earth has been around. There are plenty of Christians who believe the earth has been around longer than 6000 years, and I really don't see a problem with that. It doesn't matter to me. What really matters is how all this stuff got here in the first place.
Ah yes. Attempting to bring a theory of thermodynamics into this argument. Unfortunately, this is not correct.

Second law of Thermodynamics and Evolution
On Thermodynamics, Entropy and Evolution of Biological Systems: What is Life from a Physical Chemist's Viewpoint
Entropy, God and Evolution

Read and yee shall be enlightened.
I don't care to read of other people's ideas on the situation, I want to hear what you think. How can evolution take place if entropy exists?
Like I said earlier, that makes sense because scientific fact wholly disproves creation myth.

The simple truth is that the 2nd law of thermodynamics does not in any way support entrophy. What is does conclusivly show is that complex elements traditionally have less energy than the energy sums of the more simpler blocks used to build it.
I'm sorry, but I fail to see what any of that has to do with my statement. You lost me there...
 

Z Man

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Originally posted by Gerald
Somehow, I serious doubt you'd have the guts to look down the barrel of a gun, look the shooter in the eye and tell him "I won't obey you; you'll have to kill me."
Then you underestimate the power of faith. I like what G.K. Chesterton said one time; "A man who has faith must be prepared not only to be a martyr, but to be a fool". Many Christians in the early times of the church were tortured and brutally murdered because they would not deny their Savior. Being shot would be a much better way to go nowadays then what those brave and courageous people went through back then.

What's really sad is to know how much of a coward you really are. Are all atheists this way? Wouldn't you stand up for what you believe in?

Oh, that's right; you have nothing to believe in in the first place... :nono:
 

Rational Human

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Originally posted by Z Man
I don't care to read of other people's ideas on the situation, I want to hear what you think. How can evolution take place if entropy exists?

Evolution can take place because you are using entrophy in the incorrect form Z man. If mor learned men than I cannot make you understand this then I certainly cannot.

Let's just agree to disagree and let it go.
 

Rational Human

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Z man, I will assume that you are referring to my disbelief in god. This is due to several reasons.

1 - conflicting stories in the various books of the Torah/Bible, which includes not only Torah to Bible but also Torah on Torah and Bible on Bible conflicts.
2 - Relgions significant role in dividing humanity.
3 - "God" choosing only to reveal him/her-self to only a few people instead of to the entire world.
4 - It is just my nature to put more faith inthat which can be logically explained than what is based on superstition and myth.
 

Z Man

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Originally posted by Rational Human
Z man, I will assume that you are referring to my disbelief in god. This is due to several reasons.

1 - conflicting stories in the various books of the Torah/Bible, which includes not only Torah to Bible but also Torah on Torah and Bible on Bible conflicts.
2 - Relgions significant role in dividing humanity.
3 - "God" choosing only to reveal him/her-self to only a few people instead of to the entire world.
4 - It is just my nature to put more faith inthat which can be logically explained than what is based on superstition and myth.
So in turn you opt to believe in something that could never happen, i.e. evolution? Seems like a desperate move to deny the existence of God, don't you think?

#1 - There are many scholars who have studied the Bible inside and out, in every language available, and have dedictated their lives to trying to find contridictions in the Holy Book. Their conclusion; there are none. I think they are more educated in the Bible than you are. Maybe you should reconsider this weak arguement.

#2 - Christianity is not a religion - it's a relationship.

#3 - God is not obligated to show Himself to anyone.

#4 - I think that calling evolution a logical explanation to the existence of life is ridiculus. Evolution is far from logical! Life came from nothing?!?! How far fetched is that! There are too many mathmatical impossibilities for conciousness and life to evolve from an explosion of gases... Life is too complex. This complex type of order that exists in the world today cannot be because of an accident.. It's impossible... Think about it for a second. If you did, you would understand that believing in evolution doesn't really make you as "Rational" as you think....
 

Skeptic

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Originally posted by Z Man
So in turn you opt to believe in something that could never happen, i.e. evolution? Seems like a desperate move to deny the existence of God, don't you think?
It is far more rational to believe that a supernatural poofing of fully formed life could never happen.

#1 - There are many scholars who have studied the Bible inside and out, in every language available, and have dedictated their lives to trying to find contridictions in the Holy Book. Their conclusion; there are none. I think they are more educated in the Bible than you are. Maybe you should reconsider this weak arguement.
Google "Bible contradictions" and carefully read through a half dozen of the first sites listed. No contradictions? :chuckle:

Oh, I forgot, you folks can rationalize almost anything away. :kookoo:

#2 - Christianity is not a religion - it's a relationship.
Please. :darwinsm:

#3 - God is not obligated to show Himself to anyone.
Why believe in something for which there is no evidence? Are you afraid of death... afraid of ceasing to exist? Do you think there is some kind of "soul" entity inside you, made of some special spiritual stuff, that is going to magically enter some eternal dimension called Heaven, and stare at some supernatural Creator forever in some kind of holy bliss? :chuckle:

#4 - I think that calling evolution a logical explanation to the existence of life is ridiculus. Evolution is far from logical! Life came from nothing?!?! How far fetched is that!
Life did not come from nothing. No evolutionist has ever said this. Life derived from a series of complex chemical processes in the context of particular material and environmental circumstances. Life came from the same things out of which life is currently composed. Got a Periodic Table?

There are too many mathmatical impossibilities for conciousness and life to evolve from an explosion of gases...
You grossly underestimate what can result from complex chemical processes in changing ecologies over three billion years.

Life is too complex. This complex type of order that exists in the world today cannot be because of an accident.. It's impossible... Think about it for a second. If you did, you would understand that believing in evolution doesn't really make you as "Rational" as you think....
How do you know "life is too complex." Isn't it an empirical question? Just because YOU can't make sense of it, why assume that it was simply POOFED into existence? Isn't it more rational to leave this empirical question open for future scientists to attempt to answer? It is not rational to dismiss the possibility that natural chemical and evolutionary processes that have yet to be deciphered may someday be discovered that will provide better answers to this empirical question than we have now!

If by the word "accident" (or "random") you mean simply something similar to shaking up a bunch of chemicals in a flask and pouring it out on a table and expecting a living cell to result, then your definition is very simplistic and does not apply to a scientific approach to the origin and evolution of life.
 

Rational Human

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Originally posted by Z Man
So in turn you opt to believe in something that could never happen, i.e. evolution? Seems like a desperate move to deny the existence of God, don't you think?

#1 - There are many scholars who have studied the Bible inside and out, in every language available, and have dedictated their lives to trying to find contridictions in the Holy Book. Their conclusion; there are none. I think they are more educated in the Bible than you are. Maybe you should reconsider this weak arguement.

#2 - Christianity is not a religion - it's a relationship.

#3 - God is not obligated to show Himself to anyone.

#4 - I think that calling evolution a logical explanation to the existence of life is ridiculus. Evolution is far from logical! Life came from nothing?!?! How far fetched is that! There are too many mathmatical impossibilities for conciousness and life to evolve from an explosion of gases... Life is too complex. This complex type of order that exists in the world today cannot be because of an accident.. It's impossible... Think about it for a second. If you did, you would understand that believing in evolution doesn't really make you as "Rational" as you think....

#1 - Biblicial Contradictions - Currently 143 Zman, take any two and call me in the morning. I attended YEshiva for 7 years Z man, and the primary reason behind my leaving was the contradicting statements I found that could not be explained away. I was 17 at the time. [edit]changed age to 17[/edit]

BTW, this list took me all of 6 seconds to find. So much for your "learned" biblicial researchers. Obviously they were on the page of disprroving the myth of biblicial contradictions

Google - Biblicial Contradictions

2 - Call it what you will, I will go with the acepted definition of the word and apply it to Christianity.

3 - Yet he has chosen to do so to only a scant few. I don't trust those who play mind games.

4 - The one difference between your conception and mine of evolution is that I understand that life did not come "out of nothing". It came from the eon old process of new chemical compounds being created, multi-cellular organisims coming into existence and humanity finally rising to the top. If god made everything all at once then why were there mass extinctions all along the fossil record?

Mass Extinctions Of The Phanerozoic Menu
 
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Gerald

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Originally posted by Z Man
What's really sad is to know how much of a coward you really are. Are all atheists this way? Wouldn't you stand up for what you believe in?
Only if I'm assured of winning. If not, I'll play along until the victor turns his back, and then I'll sucker-punch him...:chuckle:
 

Z Man

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Originally posted by Skeptic
It is far more rational to believe that a supernatural poofing of fully formed life could never happen.
Exactly my point. Christians don't believe that everything just "supernaturally poofed into existence" with no help... that could never happen. Thanks for declaring Christians rational. I knew you'd come around to seeing it my way! ;)
Google "Bible contradictions" and carefully read through a half dozen of the first sites listed. No contradictions? :chuckle:
I must say, for someone who thinks they are intelligent, you've reached an all time low here... You read about 143 double verses, then deceide that the whole Bible is contridictory because those verses don't add up? Man, that's lame! In that case, you're absolutely right; the Bible is full of contridictions! I found one myself in Psalms 14:1 and 53:1, which says "There is no God". And to think I've been wasting all these years studying about Him... Hmmm.. Thanks for showing me the light Skeptic! :thumb:

In all seriousness, I know you are not stupid. Take the whole Bible into context and you just might learn something...
Why believe in something for which there is no evidence?
You want evidence? Have you ever felt love?
Are you afraid of death... afraid of ceasing to exist?
No.
Do you think there is some kind of "soul" entity inside you, made of some special spiritual stuff, that is going to magically enter some eternal dimension called Heaven, and stare at some supernatural Creator forever in some kind of holy bliss? :chuckle:
Yes.
Life derived from a series of complex chemical processes...
Hold up; stop right there. Complex chemical processes? But there wasn't anything complex about the early stages of evolution; just a bunch of gases. You can't take two toothpicks and make a skyscraper out of them...

How did something so simple become extremely complex and diversified, without having the hindrance of entropy? Have you ever witnessed your house magically clean itself? Have you ever witnessed anything on this planet go from simplicity of a few materials to something gigantically complex without the help of any outside force or energy? Have you witnessed a rusty beat up classic car transform itself into a brand new vehicle? I don't think so. It's illogical. Don't be so silly. Evolution could have never happened. Death teaches us that. You'll learn one day...
You grossly underestimate what can result from complex chemical processes in changing ecologies over three billion years.
The problem is, there was no way complex chemical processes could occur with the simplicity the universe had to offer. To take gases and create what we have today is impossible, unless there was an outside force that helped in designing it and molding life into what it is today.
How do you know "life is too complex."
Because we exist. We have conciousness. We experience love. If you have kids, everytime you look at them, do you really think to yourself that they were an accident? Do you have no feelings for them, or anyone that you love? Of course you do. Evolution could not make that. There is no way in this universe that conciousness can arrive from no where.
If by the word "accident" (or "random") you mean simply something similar to shaking up a bunch of chemicals in a flask and pouring it out on a table and expecting a living cell to result, then your definition is very simplistic and does not apply to a scientific approach to the origin and evolution of life.
When it's all boiled down, that is exactly what evolution teaches.
 

Rational Human

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Originally posted by Z Man
Exactly my point. Christians don't believe that everything just "supernaturally poofed into existence" with no help... that could never happen. Thanks for declaring Christians rational. I knew you'd come around to seeing it my way! ;)

Okay, so god talking in the abyss and then the earth just forming suddenly is not "supernatural" nor "poofing"?

Z man, what dictionary do you use?

If we ever play Twister I definately want Z man on my team. If he can pervert words this well imagine what he can do with his body!
 

Z Man

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Originally posted by Rational Human
Okay, so god talking in the abyss and then the earth just forming suddenly is not "supernatural" nor "poofing"?

Z man, what dictionary do you use?

If we ever play Twister I definately want Z man on my team. If he can pervert words this well imagine what he can do with his body!
For God to cause life to happen however He wishes to create it is definitly not as far fetched as believing that life just "poofed" into existence from an explosion of gases, without the aid of anything or anyone...

What's wrong with the notion of God creating life? Do you honestly believe that a supernatural being cannot create everything as opposed to everything creating itself? Use your brain and tell me which is more rational...
 

Rational Human

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Originally posted by Z Man
For God to cause life to happen however He wishes to create it is definitly not as far fetched as believing that life just "poofed" into existence from an explosion of gases, without the aid of anything or anyone...

What's wrong with the notion of God creating life? Do you honestly believe that a supernatural being cannot create everything as opposed to everything creating itself? Use your brain and tell me which is more rational...


I do use my brain and again Z man, you are putting words in my mouth. I NEVER, ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER said that things just "poofed" into existance. My argument is that creation has taken, and is still taking, billions of years to proceed.

As for being rational, believing what can be explain logically and scientificlly is far more rational than believing a text from slamost 2000 years ago that says a mythical entity created everything in 6 days.

[edit]Sorry bout that misplaced post y'all. Left the comp running about 9 hours ago and thought I was in a different thread when I got back.[/edit]
 
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Husband&Father

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Truth

Truth

[Your opinion that god is true is only true to you and those who share your opinion.]

Two contradictory statements can not both be true. Either God exists and I am right or God does not exist and I am wrong. An opinion can not change a truth no matter how many fools hold it.

[The main difference between you and I is that you have to have an answer for everything.]

Not so. I "know in part and see in part" and that’s good enough for me.

You, on the other hand are the one who need to understand everything before you will believe anything.
It is YOU who posted: [It is just my nature to put more faith inthat which can be logically explained] and: [As for the creation of the universe, I simply choose to recognise that which is proveable.]

You claim that I need an answer for everything but you put in writing that you refuse to believe anything unless it’s provable. Who is the one who needs to have answers?

[I am wise enough to know that humans do not know everything.]

Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. You have none (fear of God or wisdom)
 

Z Man

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Originally posted by Rational Human
I do use my brain and again Z man, you are putting words in my mouth. I NEVER, ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER said that things just "poofed" into existance. My argument is that creation has taken, and is still taking, billions of years to proceed.
How can that be? Where did everything you see today come from? Where did that come from? And how did it go from that to this? Have you ever seen anything create itself without design or a maker? Does a wristwatch create itself from pure elements? Of course not. It's only logical that the same thing applies to life, which is a zillion times more complex than a simple watch. Come on dude, use your brain.
 

Husband&Father

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Was there not a cause?

Was there not a cause?

[You grossly underestimate what can result from complex chemical processes in changing ecologies over three billion years.]

Before we get to the complex chemical processes can one of you atheistic, scientific geniuses tell me where the first chemical came from? I know you believe that there were chemicals and then, for no particular reason, there were spontaneous "complex chemical processes" and that caused simple life and simple life changed into complex life and in a few billion years we will have super dooper complex life, but how did the first chemical appear on the scene? Or the first speck of matter, for that matter?

The naturalistic theory of creation is implausible unless you can come up with an ultimate first cause.
 

Z Man

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Re: Was there not a cause?

Re: Was there not a cause?

Originally posted by Husband&Father
[You grossly underestimate what can result from complex chemical processes in changing ecologies over three billion years.]

Before we get to the complex chemical processes can one of you atheistic, scientific geniuses tell me where the first chemical came from?
Yeah, no kidding. I asked them pretty much the same thing. How could there have been a "complex" chemical process when there was nothing "complex" about the beginning?

I mean, come on atheists; let's get real here. If it takes a "complex" chemical process to make a "complex" chemical process, don't you see the illogical contridiction in that? Evolution is impossible without a Creator...
 
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Rational Human

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Re: Re: Was there not a cause?

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Originally posted by Z Man
Yeah, no kidding. I asked them pretty much the same thing. How could there have been a "complex" chemical process when there was nothing "complex" about the beginning?

I mean, come on atheists; let's get real here. If it takes a "complex" chemical process to make a "complex" chemical process, don't you see the illogical contridiction in that? Evolution is impossible without a Creator...

Evolution is only impossible without a "creator" if you are of the mind frame that first there was nothing. I mean really nothing. No hydrogen, no ozygen, no arsenic.

From the creationist POV there was a time when there was just a void, no periodic table of elements. Nothing.

From the evolutionist pov there were always elements, just in a random, chaotic space.
 

Gerald

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Re: Question for Darwin.

Re: Question for Darwin.

Originally posted by Husband&Father
Neo-Darwinists,
What did the first baby mammal eat for it's first meal?
I'll answer that when you answer this:

Who did the first person to speak French talk to?
:chuckle:
 
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