The Creation of Evil

[Richard Tanner]

It is written,

"I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things." (Isaiah 45:7 Brenton's Septuagint)

"I form light and create darkness, I make goodness and create disaster. I am the LORD, who does all these things." (ISV)

"I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things." (ESV)

"Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things." (YLT)

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (KJV)

How do you reconcile with a God who admits that He creates and/or prepares "evil"?

 

[glorydaz]

It is written,

"I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things." (Isaiah 45:7 Brenton's Septuagint)

"I form light and create darkness, I make goodness and create disaster. I am the LORD, who does all these things." (ISV)

"I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things." (ESV)

"Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things." (YLT)

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (KJV)

How do you reconcile with a God who admits that He creates and/or prepares "evil"?

The absence of light is darkness and the absence of good is evil and the absence of peace is unrest. All good things come from God and the absence of God is not good. Where God is not, a place is automatically prepared for evil to exist. Cause and effect.

 

[Daniel1769]

"Evil" in the Bible is often used to refer to violence. The term "evil" as we typically use it denotes something sinister, malicious, or even satanic, but that isn't the way it's used in the Bible all of the time. Words can have more than one meaning, and "evil" is one such word that had another meaning at the time the Bible was translated to English. God uses the word "evil" to mean violence, such as when he repented of the "evil" he planned to do to His people in Exodus 32:14. It meant that he changed his mind about about the violence he was going to do to them as punishment. Violence isn't always necessarily sinister either. If God is using violence, like the death penalty, as a form of punishment or correction, then it is good because God's punishments are righteous. So what we have here is just a misunderstanding of the meaning of the term "evil." This was something that I was confused by early in my Bible reading days. Hope that helps.

 

[Richard Tanner]

"Evil" in the Bible is often used to refer to violence. The term "evil" as we typically use it denotes something sinister, malicious, or even satanic, but that isn't the way it's used in the Bible all of the time. Words can have more than one meaning, and "evil" is one such word that had another meaning at the time the Bible was translated to English. God uses the word "evil" to mean violence, such as when he repented of the "evil" he planned to do to His people in Exodus 32:14. It meant that he changed his mind about about the violence he was going to do to them as punishment. Violence isn't always necessarily sinister either. If God is using violence, like the death penalty, as a form of punishment or correction, then it is good because God's punishments are righteous. So what we have here is just a misunderstanding of the meaning of the term "evil." This was something that I was confused by early in my Bible reading days. Hope that helps.

Sinister or violent - the question remains: How do you reconcile with a God who admits that He creates and/or prepares "evil"?

 

[Daniel1769]

Sinister or violent - the question remains: How do you reconcile with a God who admits that He creates and/or prepares "evil"?

As I said, "evil" or "violence" isn't always bad. In cases where God is doing it, then violence is a righteous punishment. You seem to still be interpreting "evil" to mean "sinister." It doesn't. It just means violence. Murder is violence, and that's sinister. God punishing people by using violence is good. God invented violence and used it for good. Men use it all to often for malice. There's nothing here to reconcile.

 

[steko]

'ra' is translated 'evil' and is also translated 'calamity'.

GOD is just and will punish evil doers through calamity, which for those experiencing it, seems evil but from God's perspective is ultimately good.

GOD did not and does not bring into existence essential 'evil'.
For that to be, there would have to be evil within God Himself as the efficient cause.
But if there were to be evil in GOD, it would necessarily be evil without limit, for GOD is infinite Being.
GOD is light and in Him is no darkness at all!
Brethren do not err.
Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of light and there is no variableness in Him.

 

[Richard Tanner]

As I said, "evil" or "violence" isn't always bad. In cases where God is doing it, then violence is a righteous punishment. You seem to still be interpreting "evil" to mean "sinister." It doesn't. It just means violence. Murder is violence, and that's sinister. God punishing people by using violence is good. God invented violence and used it for good. Men use it all to often for malice. There's nothing here to reconcile.

uhmm, no I do not interpret Evil as sinister. I'm asking how do you reconcile with a God that "invented violence" to use your words? And yes one must reconcile his or herself with the nature and actions of God. questions left unattended will fester into unbelief. So, one way you seem to reconcile with this passage is to say it is violence for the good. However, He did not say that. He simply says he created evil. When athiest ask this questions they do not limit the interpretation to "sinister", they typically think of violence whether deserved or no. So how do you reconcile this?

 

[Daniel1769]

uhmm, no I do not interpret Evil as sinister. I'm asking how do you reconcile with a God that "invented violence" to use your words? And yes one must reconcile his or herself with the nature and actions of God. questions left unattended will fester into unbelief. So, one way you seem to reconcile with this passage is to say it is violence for the good. However, He did not say that. He simply says he created evil. When athiest ask this questions they do not limit the interpretation to "sinister", they typically think of violence whether deserved or no. So how do you reconcile this?

I don't reconcile it. He created evil. So what? God never claims that he doesn't use violence. You seem to think that God and violence are some sort of contradiction that need to be rationalized. He created violence. He created love and hate too. Do those need to be reconciled? They are things He created. God made the world and He made the rules. If He wanted to create violence, then He has the right to. If you understand the term "evil," which you said you do, then I don't see the issue here. Going around in circles probably won't help you either. I've made my statement on the issue, if that isn't satisfactory then my restating and rephrasing it won't be either.

 

[Richard Tanner]

I don't reconcile it. He created evil. So what? God never claims that he doesn't use violence. You seem to think that God and violence are some sort of contradiction that need to be rationalized. He created violence. He created love and hate too. Do those need to be reconciled? They are things He created. God made the world and He made the rules. If He wanted to create violence, then He has the right to. If you understand the term "evil," which you said you do, then I don't see the issue here. Going around in circles probably won't help you either. I've made my statement on the issue, if that isn't satisfactory then my restating and rephrasing it won't be either.

Wow. First of all I do not think there's a contradiction. This is the second time you told me what I think based on what? And you have been wrong on both accounts. Your response is indicative of one who has never experienced evil - sinister or violent. (How's that for assumption) For most who have never experienced evil typically brush it off as "God punishing evil doers." We are quick to forget that it rains on the just and unjust alike. I on the other hand have both seen and experienced evil. I know its cold touch. It's bone crushing agony. You have a problem with the word "reconcile" oops, I assumed again. Now we're even - 2 for 2. I have reconciled with this idea of God creating evil. I wanted a theological discussion from other ministers and those who study the Word on this issue. Have you not read "Evil and the Justice of God" by N.T. Wright? Or what about about, "How To Overcome Evil" by Jay E. Adams? These men thought it necessary to come up with an answer. But you automatically assumed that I was an unbeliever and responded to my question as such. Oops, I did it again. Now I need you to assume something about me from these statements, so we can call it even.

 

[Richard Tanner]

And yes there is a need to reconcile with the love of God. For there are those who have a hard time reconciling the fact that God could love them.

 

[Daniel1769]

And yes there is a need to reconcile with the love of God. For there are those who have a hard time reconciling the fact that God could love them.

I don't read commentaries. People will reconcile this themselves if they're saved. If you're dwelling on this issue to try to get someone saved, then you're probably not being very successful. Use the Gospel to get them saved, then they'll understand the Bible better and be able to work out these ideas. You're talking about atheists not understanding this. Atheists don't understand the Bible in general. The natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him. Neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Richard Tanner]

I thought this was Theology forum where you discuss these issues among others, not dismiss them.

 

[Crucible]

When Christ arrived he said he didn't come to bring peace, but a sword. He says that whoever is not with him is against him.

Nowhere in the Bible is there this beggar god some like to suppose negotiates with the wicked- God is graceful to His elect and He destroys everyone else. It's that way from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Richard Tanner]

I don't read commentaries. People will reconcile this themselves if they're saved. If you're dwelling on this issue to try to get someone saved, then you're probably not being very successful. Use the Gospel to get them saved, then they'll understand the Bible better and be able to work out these ideas. You're talking about atheists not understanding this. Atheists don't understand the Bible in general. The natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him. Neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.

You truly do not understand people and why they may identify with atheist ideology. But this issue affects more than just that particular group. We need to be able to answer these questions among others - yes via the gospel. But the gospel entailed more than just repentance and faith. The four and Peter and Paul thuoght it necessary to explain things beyond simple faith in Christ and so should we.

 

[Daniel1769]

You truly do not understand people and why they may identify with atheist ideology. But this issue affects more than just that particular group. We need to be able to answer these questions among others - yes via the gospel. But the gospel entailed more than just repentance and faith. The four and Peter and Paul thuoght it necessary to explain things beyond simple faith in Christ and so should we.

Why they're an atheist isn't much concern when getting someone saved. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. If I'm giving someone the Gospel, I give them the Gospel, and if they get saved then they'll have a much easier time understanding the Bible if they read it and hear good preaching, etc. If I need to explain every doctrine, cover every perceived "contradiction," and "prove" the truth of the Bible, then the person I'm talking to isn't interested in the Gospel anyway. Among believers that can't reconcile this, they need to read the Bible and hear good Bible preaching. If they still aren't grasping it, then they need to find out of they really are saved. Maybe they think they got saved but someone gave them a false Gospel like a works-salvation, and they just need the real Gospel to get saved then they'll understand.

 

[Richard Tanner]

Why they're an atheist isn't much concern when getting someone saved. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. If I'm giving someone the Gospel, I give them the Gospel, and if they get saved then they'll have a much easier time understanding the Bible if they read it and hear good preaching, etc. If I need to explain every doctrine, cover every perceived "contradiction," and "prove" the truth of the Bible, then the person I'm talking to isn't interested in the Gospel anyway. Among believers that can't reconcile this, they need to read the Bible and hear good Bible preaching. If they still aren't grasping it, then they need to find out of they really are saved. Maybe they think they got saved but someone gave them a false Gospel like a works-salvation, and they just need the real Gospel to get saved then they'll understand.

This is where you are grossly wrong. No you do not need to cover every doctrine. But people with questions (that need answers) is indicative of lack of interest. Its the opposite. And besides, thanks for hijacking this thread and not actually being willing to discuss and answer the initial question. Please do not respond further if you are not going to answer the question. For up to this point you only want to dismiss it as not necessary to answer. I started this thread for people to provide their answers to this question not dismiss it and argue the merits of why I ask the question.

 

[nikolai_42]

It is written,

"I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things." (Isaiah 45:7 Brenton's Septuagint)

"I form light and create darkness, I make goodness and create disaster. I am the LORD, who does all these things." (ISV)

"I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things." (ESV)

"Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things." (YLT)

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (KJV)

How do you reconcile with a God who admits that He creates and/or prepares "evil"?

After reading what has thus far been posted on this thread, I have to confess that it took me a bit to get past the fact that I don't feel the need to reconcile it either. However, upon further reflection, I think I have in the past. I say this because my reconciling may seem rather weak and is all that is sufficient for me - others may have more objections that I haven't dealt with. But I still find myself satisfied with what may be a simplistic answer :

The reconciling of God creating "evil" comes down to the fact that we (as fallen sons of Adam) have a skewed and corrupted view of reality (that is, the totality of reality). For starters, we don't see the end from the beginning and so we misinterpret things as temporal creatures judging based largely on our feelings and (very limited) understanding at the moment. God's ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts higher than our thoughts. To compare us to Him and to compare our ways and thoughts to His is something that staggers the mind. So what it comes down to (for me) is that we simply do not have the proper perspective (to put it mildly) to really understand what God is doing. We are so focused on "now" that we can't see eternity. So the evil we see and experience ourselves is filtered through a mind fixed largely on the immediate AND with little or no understanding of what God is really doing.

A poor (but relatable) parallel is that we, as children, were punished by our parents. We didn't like it, it had nothing good in it (as far as we could see) and it seemed to accomplish nothing. But as we got older, we started to realize (some more slowly than others...) that this discipline was actually beneficial. Awful, but beneficial. In some small way, that is a picture of our shortsightedness as creatures. The comparison is poor because we are probably far more shortsighted in terms of God's actions than children are in terms parental discipline.

So, for example, we see Israel of old being punished by God - bringing evil upon them for their repeated forsaking of Him and His ways (yet forgiving far more than He punished...that much is often missed - e.g. Psalm 78). All that He did was for their correction, punishment and ultimate turning (and He even told them ahead of time what He would do if they strayed from Him - Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 30). That God did all that is clear.

It may, then, be objected that this was just desserts - not some undeserved terror. Israel turned from God, they got what was coming to them. The first answer is that we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We all deserve death. So in some sense, the evil that we do see is limited in that God restrains what would be due us. In other words, it could be much, much worse and God would still be justified in doing all He did. But to illustrate even more that it isn't simply about punishing sin, look at Job. He was righteous and upright before God and so when Satan came to God looking for a "project", God pointed out Job as a candidate to show God's glory. Note that while Satan did the afflicting, it was God who had to remove the protection from him to allow Satan in (Job 1:10-12 and again in Job 2:6). So God pointed to Job, removed the protection He had around him and basically told Satan "Do your worst - just spare his life". So Satan was a tool in the hand of God for God's glory. And what's more, Job attributed all this evil to God Himself :

And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.
In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
Job 1:21-22

So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.
Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Job 2:7-10

Job was submitted to God and yet...even then...he had a thing or two to learn...

I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
Job 42:5-6

So Job is an example of evil coming upon a sinner, yet not because of his deeds but because God has willed it.

Even more significant may be the cup Jesus drank for us. Here was someone who was sinless. Perfect. In no way did He deserve any of what came upon Him. And at the hour of its approach His flesh struggled under the weight of it.

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
Matthew 26:42

Not only did the Father pour out the cup upon His Son, but it was His will so to do. Here was evil being done to someone of whom it can be said they did not deserve it. Here is evil being done by God and according to His will (and again, to someone who didn't deserve it). Peter even says it outright :

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 2:22-23

In no uncertain terms, God did this and used men to do it! Yet He holds them responsible for wickedness (crucifying an innocent man...the Son of God, no less!) because they are not guiltless.

The point is that there doesn't need to be an obvious reason (at the time) for evil. The whole idea of bad things happening to good people is flawed from the start - there are no good people (there is none good but God). There may be those who are not malicious - and when they are dealt blows it is unfathomable that it should happen to them because they seem not to deserve it. But even were that so, only the "just desserts" purpose of evil that can be seen in Israel falls into that category. We simply can't understand (at the time) what good is there in evil prevailing? Eternally, it only prevails for a very brief moment. Even temporally we see good coming out of "unspeakable evil". But what we consider "evil" and what God considers "evil" are not always the same thing. Again...because we only see "now" and God sees eternity, that's the difference. God calls adultery evil, for example. So do we. But do we call the lustful look evil? No. God does. God calls murder evil. So do we. But do we call unjust anger against someone evil? Probably not. The thoughts that go through most heads when they get cut off in traffic, for example. Does that make them evil? According to scripture it does :

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Matthew 15:18-19

These things are barely seen and understood by man - but God sees it all in its fullness and knows what He does. We don't - and can't. We only have the benefit of the scriptures and hindsight when looking at Job and Jesus. But how many of us would be right there with Job's comforters or the disciples who deserted the Savior at His darkest hour? I wager most of us would whether we like to admit it or not.

So the bottom line for me is that we simply can't understand and have difficulty reconciling what WE call good and "not good" with God. Our ways we can't reconcile with His ways. Our thoughts don't even approach His. So when it comes to reconciling God with "evil", the answer is "Because He is God and I am not and He will do what is best for me whether I agree with it or not.".

Oh...William Tyndale had a good take on it too (see my signature).

 

[Richard Tanner]

Now that's what I'm talking about - a sound biblical response. So my next question to you [MENTION=5671]nikolai_42[/MENTION] would be: How is that I am guilty? How is it that I deserve no less than death when I (hypothetically)have been a good person? I do not murder or steal. What sin could be so terrible that thousands in Africa deserve Genocide? Do all the girls who have been raped deserve it? How crass can you be to suggest such a thing? (Playing Devils Advocate) I have an answer - I just want to know how others respond to these among others.

 

[Bright Raven]

From Gotquestions.org

Question: "Did God create evil?"

Answer: At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good. One of the good things God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or reject good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a “thing” that required God to create it.

Perhaps a further illustration will help. If a person is asked, “Does cold exist?” the answer would likely be “yes.” However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.

As finite human beings, we can never fully understand an infinite God (Romans 11:33-34). Sometimes we think we understand why God is doing something, only to find out later that it was for a different purpose than we originally thought. God looks at things from a holy, eternal perspective. We look at things from a sinful, earthly, and temporal perspective. Why did God put man on earth knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore bring evil, death, and suffering on all mankind? Why didn’t He just create us all and leave us in heaven where we would be perfect and without suffering? These questions cannot be adequately answered this side of eternity. What we can know is whatever God does is holy and perfect and ultimately will glorify Him. God allowed for the possibility of evil in order to give us a true choice in regards to whether we worship Him. God did not create evil, but He allowed it. If He had not allowed evil, we would be worshipping Him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own will.

 

[Richard Tanner]

From Gotquestions.org

Question: "Did God create evil?"

Answer: At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good. One of the good things God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or reject good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a “thing” that required God to create it.

Perhaps a further illustration will help. If a person is asked, “Does cold exist?” the answer would likely be “yes.” However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.

As finite human beings, we can never fully understand an infinite God (Romans 11:33-34). Sometimes we think we understand why God is doing something, only to find out later that it was for a different purpose than we originally thought. God looks at things from a holy, eternal perspective. We look at things from a sinful, earthly, and temporal perspective. Why did God put man on earth knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore bring evil, death, and suffering on all mankind? Why didn’t He just create us all and leave us in heaven where we would be perfect and without suffering? These questions cannot be adequately answered this side of eternity. What we can know is whatever God does is holy and perfect and ultimately will glorify Him. God allowed for the possibility of evil in order to give us a true choice in regards to whether we worship Him. God did not create evil, but He allowed it. If He had not allowed evil, we would be worshipping Him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own will.

And yet it is written, ""I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Is. 45:7 KJV)