Theology Club: The Basics

chickenman

a-atheist
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I do, too. But don't we hear the same thing from Mad about the Gospels not applying to us? I know when I read Matt. 5, for instance, that Jesus is talking to the Jews concerning how "impossible" it is for them to "keep" the Law....and I see the reason for it. But if we keep that in mind, there is a lot for us there, as well.

Hi, glorydaz.

Thanks for participating.

Lots of things in the bible don't apply (as doctrine by which we are to live our lives) directly to members of the body of Christ. But we have to read, study, and know it all in order to understand the bible as a whole and in order to make sense of many things that ARE written directly to the body of Christ.

We can make application from many things that aren't directly to us. Before we can do that, though, we have to first understand them in their proper, intended (by God) place.

I'm looking forward to your participation in here. I think this forum will be fun!

Randy
 

chickenman

a-atheist
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I do believe that some of what the bible says does not apply directly to us (BOC).
That is one of the tenets of MidActs ---- that some things apply only to Israel.

BUT
, most of scripture is about God's dealings with Israel.
And we should KNOW about it whether it directly relates to us or not.
Just as some of scripture is about God's dealings with Gentile nations; and Israel should KNOW about it whether it directly applies to themselves or not.

Well said, Tambora! :up:
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Hi, glorydaz.

Thanks for participating.

Lots of things in the bible don't apply (as doctrine by which we are to live our lives) directly to members of the body of Christ. But we have to read, study, and know it all in order to understand the bible as a whole and in order to make sense of many things that ARE written directly to the body of Christ.

We can make application from many things that aren't directly to us. Before we can do that, though, we have to first understand them in their proper, intended (by God) place.

I'm looking forward to your participation in here. I think this forum will be fun!

Randy

I think so, too. The OT is also rich in that Christ is present all the way through...from beginning to end. I've spent a long time there because He was from the beginning. :thumb:
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I understood you perfectly!
:thumb:

So do I, it made perfect sense. Maybe the thread can be cleaned up a bit. I don't believe her for one second in that she is trying to understand something complicated.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Nang...

The "basics" hermeneutic is how I arrive at what I believe about God and the bible. And while the list (formerly called "Where it all starts") is NOT the hermeneutic, it is derived from the hermeneutic.


Thank you for explaining and clarifying this by the change of language in your OP.


We have to strive for understanding right from the very beginning.

Indeed. We agree.

In fact, I consider the first three chapters of Genesis to teach all of the foundational doctrines of God and His salvation by grace.

Might I ask another question, then, since we are in hermeneutical agreement?

What do you find and rely upon in the Genesis account to be foundational to the historical election of the nation of Israel as His chosen people? (IOW's, what exactly do we learn of the exodus from what is recorded as scripture, prior to the exodus?)

I believe God's promise of a Savior to Eve (which Seed eventually comes from Israel); His approval of Abel but not Cain, the election of a Godly lineage from Seth to Noah, and Noah finding grace in the eyes of God . . . plus the Abrahamic Covenant, set the stage for the raising up of Israel.

Is there any disagreement between us in this regard?

Nang
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I think so, too. The OT is also rich in that Christ is present all the way through...from beginning to end. I've spent a long time there because He was from the beginning. :thumb:

Yes. The O.T. should be read as a treasure hunt, looking for truths, prophesies, and types of the Lord Jesus Christ! For by doing so, great treasures and blessings are found.
 

chickenman

a-atheist
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
What do you find and rely upon in the Genesis account to be foundational to the historical election of the nation of Israel as His chosen people?
It's foundational from the very beginning. We see God creating the universe and unfolding a plan for fellowship with man. He wanted that with an uncorrupted Adam in the garden. Adam blew it. God demonstrated in various ways how mankind would be incapable on his own of being reconciled with God. That set the foundation of His calling out of one man through whom a nation would be birthed, through whom a Savior (the One to reconcile mankind to Himself) would be born.

(IOW's, what exactly do we learn of the exodus from what is recorded as scripture, prior to the exodus?)
I'm not sure I understand this question. Are you asking if the exodus is foreshadowed and/or typified in the scriptures prior to the event itself?

I believe God's promise of a Savior to Eve (which Seed eventually comes from Israel); His approval of Abel but not Cain, the election of a Godly lineage from Seth to Noah, and Noah finding grace in the eyes of God. . . plus the Abrahamic Covenant, set the stage for the raising up of Israel.

Is there any disagreement between us in this regard?

Nang
Except for the idea of a so-called Godly lineage from Seth to Noah, which isn't scriptural, then I also agree that those things set the stage for the raising up of Israel.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
It's foundational from the very beginning. We see God creating the universe and unfolding a plan for fellowship with man. He wanted that with an uncorrupted Adam in the garden. Adam blew it. God demonstrated in various ways how mankind would be incapable on his own of being reconciled with God.

Agreed.


That set the foundation of His calling out of one man through whom a nation would be birthed, through whom a Savior (the One to reconcile mankind to Himself) would be born.

Just to be clear, to whom do you refer? Who is the "one man through whom a nation would be birthed?" And why do you use the term "birthed" to describe the election of the nation of Israel?


I'm not sure I understand this question. Are you asking if the exodus is foreshadowed and/or typified in the scriptures prior to the event itself?

No, I just wanted to learn your views of all the history of God's dealings with mankind that occurred prior to the exodus, and how you tie all such into God raising up the nation of Israel (if you do).


Except for the idea of a so-called Godly lineage from Seth to Noah, which isn't scriptural, then I also agree that those things set the stage for the raising up of Israel.

From Hebrews 11:4-7:

Abel, Enoch, and Noah are recorded as being men of faith. These men were related according to the genealogies recorded by Moses in Genesis 4:7-32.

In the Genesis portion, many names are inserted to reveal the lineage of these three, and all these men “began to call upon the name of the Lord” (Genesis 4:26) revealing them to be Godly men that reproduced Godly children.

We can certainly consider this family lineage as Godly, for they appear in the genealogy of the Lord Jesus Christ. Luke 3:36-38.

These individuals were distinguished from the ungodly of the world because they carried the promised seed of Jesus Christ up to and through the judgement of the flood, when all other humans perished at the hand of God.

Your OP was of particular interest to me, because I see an overall progression in God’s dealing with fallen man.

First, and for centuries, God gave faith to only a few particular individuals, that caused them to call on His name, as recorded in the scriptures above.

Then, still within the history recorded in the book of Genesis we learn of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, all men of faith, which reveals God bestowing His grace upon particular families.

The families of Isaac and Jacob carried the seed of the promised Savior into the Egyptian captivity and brought God’s Son out of Egypt during the Exodus, which resulted in God (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:15) bestowing His providential blessings upon the particular nation of Israel, chosen out from all the other nations of the world.

This raising up of the nation of Israel, produced the Son of Man, Jesus Christ, the promised seed, Who was born into the world, so that the gospel of the grace and salvation of God would go global and that persons out of all the nations might be saved.

IOWs, I see a progression of salvation from particular individuals, to families, to a remnant chosen and represented by an entire nation, to the wonderful event of all nations having the light of the Lord shine upon them through the incarnation and gospel of Jesus Christ.

Being a Calvinist, I believe the gospel promises have always been the one and same gospel promise of a Redeeming Seed, as was given to Eve in Genesis 3:15.

This gospel was proclaimed to particular sons of Eve (Abel-Noah), by the sons of Noah to Abraham and his sons, and through Moses to the nation of Israel, and ultimately through Jesus Christ, the same gospel is still preached globally amongst all the nations of the world.

Nang
 

chickenman

a-atheist
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Just to be clear, to whom do you refer? Who is the "one man through whom a nation would be birthed?"
Abraham
And why do you use the term "birthed" to describe the election of the nation of Israel?
Seems like a good word in light of the way it's presented in scripture. E.g....
And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all. Ez. 16:4

Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Is. 66:8

And I will cast thee out, and thy mother that bare thee, into another country, where ye were not born; and there shall ye die. Jer. 22:26​
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Abraham

Seems like a good word in light of the way it's presented in scripture. E.g....
And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all. Ez. 16:4

Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Is. 66:8

And I will cast thee out, and thy mother that bare thee, into another country, where ye were not born; and there shall ye die. Jer. 22:26​


Interesting. Thank you for your answers. I agree with you that Abraham indeed gave birth to the faithful remnant within the nation of Israel, as indeed he is the "father" of all those who believe. (Romans 4:9-18)

Note: Ezekiel attributes the parents of the unfaithful harlot "Jerusalem" as being the Amorites and Hittites (who issued from the lineage of Ishmael/Esau versus from the Godly lineage of Isaac/Jacob).

Coniah, to whom Jeremiah refers, is also cut off from the Godly lineage of Jacob.

The Isaiah passage is usually read as prophecy of both the first and second comings of Christ.

FWIW . . .
 

Guyver

BANNED
Banned
[*]For one year after Jesus' earthly ministry, God gave them repeated chances to accept the good news of His Son and the coming kingdom and to bear fruit.

[*]Because the masses still rejected Him, God put a halt to the prophesied timeline of delivering the kingdom to them. He relegated the chosen nation to the status of the disobedient Gentile nations, thus putting ALL people in the same boat (as opposed to Israel being the preeminent nation).

If anyone would like to discuss any of these points, then I and others would love to do so.

Thanks,
Randy

Hello Randy. I am very much interested in discussing this with you. I read your thread, and appreciated your work in it.

My first questions pertain to the part I left above from your list.

Can you tell me why you believe these two things are so?

Thanks.
 

Guyver

BANNED
Banned
It seems that Randy is not fully active at this point.

Can any MAD adherent answer the questions that I have asked?

What is your basis for believing that God suspended Jesus prophesies?

I thank you for answering.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Hello? MAD people?


Hi , and do you have a specific verse in mind ?

Like , why the Kingdom was set aside ??

Or , why the OLD COVENANT was fulfilled ??

Or , why Joel 2;28-32 and Acts 2:14-21 , was not fulfilled , when it started and was supended ??

Or , what is Luke 13:6-9 speaking about ??

See , you Thurday !!

dan p
 
Last edited:

Guyver

BANNED
Banned
Hi , and do you have a specific verse in mind ?

Like , why the Kingdom was set aside ??

Or , why the OLD COVENANT was fulfilled ??

Or , why Joel 2;28-32 and Acts 2:14-21 , was not fulfilled , when it started and was supended ??

Or , what is Luke 13:6-9 speaking about ??

See , you Thurday !!

dan p


Yes, see post 32.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Yes, see post 32.


Hi , and just caught your thought , but I have to leave and will answer my points with verses , Thurday !!

There are many GAPS in the bible and Thurday I will show how manys verse there are !!

dan p
 

Guyver

BANNED
Banned
Hi , and just caught your thought , but I have to leave and will answer my points with verses , Thurday !!

There are many GAPS in the bible and Thurday I will show how manys verse there are !!

dan p

Well that's just great. At least one person in the entire "MAD" forum can answer some simple and basic questions about MAD theology.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Hello Randy. I am very much interested in discussing this with you. I read your thread, and appreciated your work in it.

My first questions pertain to the part I left above from your list.

Can you tell me why you believe these two things are so?

Thanks.
He also spoke this parable: [Jesus]“A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’”[/Jesus]
-Luke 13:6-9
 

Guyver

BANNED
Banned
He also spoke this parable: [Jesus]“A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’”[/Jesus]
-Luke 13:6-9

Thankyou Lighthouse.....but that is a parable, and it doesn't answer my questions.

Not that there's anything wrong with a parable....it's just that people can interpret it in so many different ways.
 
Top