Theology Club: The Basics

[DAN P]

Thankyou Lighthouse.....but that is a parable, and it doesn't answer my questions.

Not that there's anything wrong with a parable....it's just that people can interpret it in so many different ways.

Hi , and a Parable were written for a purpose , so that Israel would not know its true meaning , but the disciples understood !!

Is the Parable in Luke 16:19-31 , just a contrast , or just Interpreted many different ways , I don't think so !!

Israel is spoken as a Fig Tree , as Branches and branches from the Olive tree !!


In Isa 5:1-7 , Israel is the vineyard of the Lord !!



Here is the meaning of Luke 13:6-9 :

verse 6 , He ( Jesus ) spake this Parable , A certain man ( the

FATHER ) had a a FIG TREE planted in His Vineyard , which is Israel , and came and sought Fruit thereon , and found None .

Verse 7, Then the FATHER said to the DRESSER , which is Jesus ,

of His Vineyard , Behold , these 3 Years , which is Jesus earthly ministry , I come seeking Fruit on this FIG TREE , which is Israel ,

and find None , Cut it DOWN , why let take up Space .

Verse 8 , Then Jesus answers , said unto the FATHER , LORD , let it

alone this year also , till I DIG about it and Fertilize .


Verse 9 , And if it bear Fruit , well , and IF not , then after that ,

thou SHALT CUT IT DOWN >


#1 , In verse 6 , " He spake " is in the Imperfect Tense which means Continuous Action in Past Time

#2 , " Planted " in verse 1 , is in the Greek Perfect Tense which means it Past tense , and also in the Continuous in the present .

#3 , This then means , that Luke is talking about the Near View in Jesus time .

#4 , Israel is set aside with Jesus death , but the FAR VIEW , happens to Israel , when God then beginning Dealing with Israel after

the Departure/Rapture of the Body of Christ in Rom 11:25 when the

" FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN ".


And other verse is in Matt 3:10 , where Matthew says that the AXE is LAID unto the Roots of the Trees !!

DAN P

 

[Guyver]

Not bad. That makes sense.

How about the part of suspending Christ's prophecies?

 

[DAN P]

Not bad. That makes sense.

How about the part of suspending Christ's prophecies?

Hi , and do you have any verse in mind ?

Did not Jesus come to bring salvation to the Nation of Israel , in Matt 10:5-6 .

Yet , in Matt 13:14-15 , they , the Jews did not understand the message and IF they did understand with their HEARTS and should be CONVERTED , Jesus would have to HEAL THEM !!

But Israel's program was set aside and has been set aside for 2000 years and will not begin , until the " FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN " , Rom 11:25 !!

There are many reasons , and here is one , The GENTILES were set aside as Rom 1 says , then Israel was set aside in Acts 28:28 and now all were set aside !!

But God saves Saul and now Jews and Gentiles can be saved and placed into the Body of Christ , in Gal 3:28 .

But this does not mean that the Nation of Israel will be replaced as some believe as Israel is Promised an Earthly Kingdom !!

dan p

 

[Lighthouse]

Thankyou Lighthouse.....but that is a parable, and it doesn't answer my questions.

Not that there's anything wrong with a parable....it's just that people can interpret it in so many different ways.

Even so, the fig tree always represented Israel in prophecy and Jesus was on Earth for three years, so it appears clear to me, and that is part of the basis for the MAD belief on this subject.

 

[Guyver]

Even so, the fig tree always represented Israel in prophecy and Jesus was on Earth for three years, so it appears clear to me, and that is part of the basis for the MAD belief on this subject.

I do see what you're saying, and it does seem to fit. But don't you think that any serious doctrine should be established with at least two or three Bible texts?

I don't think that baptizing for the dead would be a proper practice, even though it is mentioned in the New Testament.

And my other question had to do with Randy's OP which stated that Christs prophesies regarding his return were suspended. Do you have any verses backing this notion up?

It seems that like John, Paul was convinced that Christ would return at any time. So, it would seem to me that Paul had no revelation about this suspension of prophecy, or if he did, we have no record of him writing it....

Additionally....it would certainly be right to assume that much if not all of the New Testament was written prior to the destruction of the temple. How could such a thing not be mentioned, especially in light of the fact that Paul himself wrote specifically about the Antichrist defiling the temple?

 

[Guyver]

FYI...Randy....if you come back to this thread...I have been answering the question I asked you myself by reading here...

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=722

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=270

et all.

 

[Nick M]

And my other question had to do with Randy's OP which stated that Christs prophesies regarding his return were suspended. Do you have any verses backing this notion up?

First the easy one. All of the "NT" was before 70 AD. Or they would have written about it.

Then prophecy susupended or not coming to pass. One of the arguments people make (wrongly) is that Israel was not to inherit an earthly promise. Which is preposterous. Which is why godrulz simply says "you aren't interpreting it right" because he doesn't like what it says. But about prophecy regarding earthly kingdoms....

Jeremiah 18

7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

You can also see how dispensationalism (God has dealt with men differently at different times) and the open view go hand in hand. Kingdoms are conditional. Including Israel's restoration and reuniting of the two kingdoms.

Acts 1

3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

That isn't an off the wall question. They were taught for 3 years by God himself in the flesh, and then again after his resurection. And he wants to know if it is time for the restoration. Restoration is good news (gospel = good news) that is different than Paul's good news (eternal life).

 

[Guyver]

Well Nick, you might be surprised to hear me say that your post was a good one IMO.

I actually thought of this verse that you quoted while asking the question.

"Jeremiah 18

The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it."

So, it's not out of line to assume the opposite is also true. But, when you read the words of Jesus....it's hard to think that he's really just prophesying about events that will occur as opposed to speaking plainly.....so, maybe it's a timing thing. It's not a false prophecy if it happens....just because it hasn't happend yet..

And I think the "some standing here" thing is explainable too...so I guess I really can't disagree with you.

I'm just looking for some additional scriptural support for the notion that God suspended these events and so forth.

 

[DAN P]

Hi , and at the present time , I can only see one verse where Jesus RETURN was Postponed !!

In Acts 3:18 , Jesus has FULFILLED what the Prophets had Prophecied !!

in verse 19 , " You change your minds , therefore , and be reformed for your sins to be blotted out , so that TIMES OF REFRESHING may come from face of the Lord ,

Did Jesus come back ? NO , NO !!

Verse 20 says , that they would REPENT or have a change of mind concerning Jesus , " And He may send Jesus Christ , the One having PROCLAIMED before to you !!

Hear again we have the NEAR VIEW in Acts 3:20 , and we see that Jesus could not come back because they would NOT REPENT !!

Christ than saves SAUL , in Acts 9:6 , and here is where GRACE BEGINS !!

The FAR VIEW is when Christ comes back in Matt 24:29-31 .

Then begins the Millennial Kingdom and the 4 remaining Covenants will be put into Operation !!

dan p

 

[Lighthouse]

I do see what you're saying, and it does seem to fit. But don't you think that any serious doctrine should be established with at least two or three Bible texts?

This is part of the doctrine, not the whole thing. This is part of the reason we believe Jesus gave them a year.

There are other places, including Romans 11, that tell us Israel was cut off for a time and that He will return to them after He's done with this dispensation.

I don't think that baptizing for the dead would be a proper practice, even though it is mentioned in the New Testament.

Where is that mentioned?

And my other question had to do with Randy's OP which stated that Christs prophesies regarding his return were suspended. Do you have any verses backing this notion up?

History bears this out.

It seems that like John, Paul was convinced that Christ would return at any time. So, it would seem to me that Paul had no revelation about this suspension of prophecy, or if he did, we have no record of him writing it....

Paul wrote of the suspension of the plan and covenants with Israel, of which said prophecies were part.

Additionally....it would certainly be right to assume that much if not all of the New Testament was written prior to the destruction of the temple. How could such a thing not be mentioned, especially in light of the fact that Paul himself wrote specifically about the Antichrist defiling the temple?

If it was written before it happened that is why it was not mentioned.

 

[Lighthouse]

FYI...Randy....if you come back to this thread...I have been answering the question I asked you myself by reading here...

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=722

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=270

et all.

:chuckle:

I'll explain later.

 

[Nick M]

So, it's not out of line to assume the opposite is also true. But, when you read the words of Jesus....it's hard to think that he's really just prophesying about events that will occur as opposed to speaking plainly.....so, maybe it's a timing thing. It's not a false prophecy if it happens....just because it hasn't happend yet..

False and speaking presumptously has nothing to do with Jeremiah 18. He is showing kingdoms on earth are condional. It may never happen.

 

[chickenman]

Hi, Guyver.
I've been gone for a while. I've skimmed your questions and others' responses. I'll come back asap to read through in detail and see how I can input any more, if needed.

Thanks,
Randy