Paul's comparison is one of those in Adam, in contrast to those in Christ.
But leave it to you to "search the Scripture in vain."
:chuckle:
For read right past the obvious on this, you have continued to.
Rom. 5: 6-8 in each our stead.
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- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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Paul's comparison is one of those in Adam, in contrast to those in Christ.
But leave it to you to "search the Scripture in vain."
:chuckle:
For read right past the obvious on this, you have continued to.
Rom. 5: 6-8 in each our stead.
So is it just or right to become angry for not getting what you want? No. The only righteous anger is anger against sin and lawlessness. Thus, when a baby cries because he or she is mad because they cannot reach a toy or are not getting their way, that is sin.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Is a person automatically automatically in Christ?
Of course not! No one is in Christ until they believe.
And no one is Adam until they sin.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, in order to be united with the Lord Jesus a person has to do something and that is to believe.
And in order to be united with Adam a person must sin. Therefore, infants and little children are not in Adam because they have not yet sinned.
Jerry, you are not reading the text. One sin, a single sin, led to the condemnation of all men. All men born are in Adam. This is plain and clear. All men are guilty before God because of Adam’s sin. The text NEVER SAYS that you have to sin before being united with Adam. You are literally making that up and putting in Paul’s mouth. The text says that we are naturally united with Adam and that union is only severed by being united with Christ.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That is ridiculous because in order to have a sin imputed to an infant's account that infant must first know that what he is doing is a sin:
"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (Jas.4:17).
God will not impute sin into a person's account unless that person first knows the difference between what is good and what is not.
Do you really think that an infant knows the difference between right and wrong? Do you really think that when an infant is not getting his way and therefore cries then he is sinning?
That idea belongs to the dark ages and not to the 21st century.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I am reading the text. A person has to do something to be in Christ, and that thing is to believe.
Likewise, in order for a person to be in Adam, a person must do something, and that thing is to sin.
It did not lead to the condemnation of infants because in order to be condemned a person must first sin.
And you are so confused that you actually think infants sin.
Actually, I’m not confused at all. The Scripture is abundantly clear. You are making up additions to the text that simply are not in there. Please tell me where in Romans 5:12-21 Paul says that I have to do ANYTHING to be united with Adam.
That’s where heresy comes from Jerry. I don’t care what modern ethical philosophy says (actually you are following Pelagius). My authority and source is Scripture ALONE. Scripture is plain and clear.
genuineoriginal
New member
The knowledge of good and evil and the free will to choose between the two.
genuineoriginal
New member
The Protestant version of Original Sin was formulated in the Dark Ages, but it can be traced to the teachings of Augustine of Hippo from the formation of the Catholic church in the 4th century.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Here is the verse to which I made reference:
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor.15:22).
In order to be "in Christ" a person must do something, and that thing is to believe.
In order to maintain a logical consistency at 1 Corinthians 15:22 verse then in order to be "in Adam" a person must sin.
Again, a person is dead in sin as a result of his own sin and not the sin of Adam.
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).
Not dead as a result of Adam's sins but instead dead spiritually as a result of one's own sins.
Jerry, we’re talking about Romans 5:12-21. But you do not want to listen to what the Scriptures say because they contradict your philosophy. But I’ll play along with you.
You say that a person has to do something to be in Christ. Let me ask you this: once a person is in Christ, who imputes righteousness to them? Or do you deny that doctrine as well?
I’ll answer it for you. God imputes righteousness to the believer. The Scriptures CLEARLY teach that in order to be united with christ, one has to have faith in His work.
BUT! Where do the Scriptures EXPLICITLY say that I have to sin to be united with Adam? I’m not asking aboit logical reasoning or philosophy. I’m asking you to provide A SINGLE VERSE that says “By sinning we are united with Adam.” Can you or can you not do that?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, and Augustine was totally confused because he said that "Before the fall, and before there was any necessity of dying, concupiscence had no existence; but after the body had acquired a sickly and dying nature, (which likewise belongs to the flesh of animals), it received also, on this account, the movement by which the carnal desire originates in animals, whereby those that are born, succeed the dying.' De Gen. ad Lit. XI. 32" [emphasis added] (G.F. Wiggers, An Historical Presentation of Augustinism and Pelagianism From the Original Sources [Andover, MA: Gould, Newman & Saxton, 1840], 92; A Reproduction by Forgotten Books).
Adam and Eve had a dying nature before the fall because it was partaking of the tree of life which was to allow people to live for ever. The body of Adam was always a mortal body so Augustine was totally confused when he said that with the fall Adam acquired a sickly and dying nature:
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).
1 John 3:4 KJVWhosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 4:15 KJV because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Thus, sin is the transgression of the law. However, if there is no law, a transgression against it cannot occur("where no law is, there is no transgression"), and sin cannot be imputed to one, if there is no law by which that sin is defined/held against you("sin is not imputed when there is no law-below-Romans 5:13 KJV).
And, hence, Paul's point below-And yet("Nevertheless"-memorize it), people croaked, from the time of Adam, until Moses, when there was no law!
Romans 5 KJV
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Get it? Why did people die, from the time of Adam, until Moses?=Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Why? Paul's point-sin nature....spiritual death....the life of God left Adam.....the wages of sin(singular, not plural) is death.......spiritual death. People died, who had not committed the sin Adam committed...
even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression
Get it? People croaked, when there was no law, to condemn them of sins-plural........And they had not even committed the same sin as Adam....
Why? Spiritual death, folks.....Spiritually dead...."And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"=not physically.
EOT. DOA. RIP.
Carry on.....I have weighed in...
Romans 4:15 KJV because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Thus, sin is the transgression of the law. However, if there is no law, a transgression against it cannot occur("where no law is, there is no transgression"), and sin cannot be imputed to one, if there is no law by which that sin is defined/held against you("sin is not imputed when there is no law-below-Romans 5:13 KJV).
And, hence, Paul's point below-And yet("Nevertheless"-memorize it), people croaked, from the time of Adam, until Moses, when there was no law!
Romans 5 KJV
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Get it? Why did people die, from the time of Adam, until Moses?=Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Why? Paul's point-sin nature....spiritual death....the life of God left Adam.....the wages of sin(singular, not plural) is death.......spiritual death. People died, who had not committed the sin Adam committed...
even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression
Get it? People croaked, when there was no law, to condemn them of sins-plural........And they had not even committed the same sin as Adam....
Why? Spiritual death, folks.....Spiritually dead...."And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"=not physically.
EOT. DOA. RIP.
Carry on.....I have weighed in...
Derf
Well-known member
What does "spiritually dead" mean, then? You should consider giving us a good rundown of the theory of Original Sin is probably in order, before we can decide whether we agree or disagree with it.
It always seemed to me that "original sin" is a given, since sin was not part of the original creation, and someone had to commit the first one. But application of "original sin", the act, to all humans makes it "Original Sin", the theory/doctrine.
What it seems like is that the concern is not "original sin" but "inherited sin" or "imputed sin".
There are 2 ways I look at it:
1. If there's no way a person can keep from sinning at some point in his life, then there must be a "sin nature" that is inherited from our forebears (it's not from God, but it's in us before we have a chance to do anything about it).
2. If the wages of sin is death, and all die, even newborn babies sometimes, then we must be guilty of sin in some way even before we have a chance to sin of our own accord. It is imputed to us.
I know you don't agree that physical death is a direct result of sin, but I think scripture is pretty clear on it.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Do you deny that before a person can be in Christ he must first believe the gospel? And to be logically consistent a person must do something before he is in Adam, and that thing is to sin. Besides, I have already shown you that Paul said that Adam's sin resulted in "many" being dead and not "all." According to the theory of Original Sin "all" are dead.
When a person believes the gospel then a righteousness apart from law is imputed to him (Ro.3:21-22). That is not Christ's rightousness because His righteousness was based on keeping the law. And Abraham received the imputed rightousness of God before the Lord Jesus even walked on the earth so that imputed righteousness cannot be the righteousness of God apart from law:
"And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead" (Ro.4:21-24).
No, the Lord Jesus Christ is righteous by virtue of the fact that He is the only begotten Son of God, having His own righteous nature. He was not righteous because of His perfect law-keeping; Neh, His righteousness was intrinsic to who He is.
Psalm 4:1 KJV Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness: thou hast enlarged me when I was in distress; have mercy upon me, and hear my prayer.
Psalm 7:17 KJV I will praise the Lord according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the Lord most high.
Psalm 11:7 KJV For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
Psalm 31:1 KJV In thee, O Lord, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in thy righteousness.
...............................................
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Can I ask you to cease from misrepresenting my beliefs because it is evident that Adam's sin resulted in mankind being denied the very thing which allowed people to live for ever--the tree of life.
If you are right then we must believe that the reason both Adam and Eve sinned because they both had a so-called sin nature.
If you will examine what is said about the wages of sin being death then you will understand that the penalty is in regard to a person's own sin and not Adam's sin:
"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21-24).
This is not speaking about physical death because a person does not die physically when he sins. After Adam's actions resulted in mankind not being able to partake of the tree of life it is appointed unto men to die physically (Heb.9:27).
Instead, the death is a spiritual death. And since all people die spiritually when they sin that can only mean that all people were alive spiritually at one time. And the only way that can be possible is because all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive and not spiritually alive as the advocates of the theory of Original Sin teach.
Death is about separation. Physical death is a separation of the soul from the physical body. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from the source of spiritual life and that source is the LORD God.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Do you deny that the Lord Jesus' righteousness was established by His keeping the law perfectly?
If it is Christ's righteousness which is imputed to the believer then surely we would read that somewhere in the Scriptures.
Perhaps you know of such a verse?
Besides that, the Scriptures will be searched in vain for anyone saying that Adam's sin was imputed to anyone.
In fact, the Scriptures reveal the LORD will not impute one person's act of sin and its penalty to another person. Let us look at the following passage:
"The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?" (Ezek.18:1-2).
Charles Dyer wrote that "God asked Ezekiel about a proverb being circulated. This proverb--The Fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge--must have been well known in Israel because Jeremiah also quoted it (cf. Jer. 31:29-30). the proverb's point was that children were suffering because of their parents' sins...So these people were blaming God for punishing them unjustly (cf. Ezek. 18:25). God saw that this proverb had to be refuted...Blaming others for their misfortunes, the people were denying their own guilt. This was wrong because every individual is personally responsible to God...Those who are guilty will receive their own deserved punishment" (Charles H. Dyer, "Ezekiel," in The Bible Knowledge Commentary; Old Testament, 1260).
Later we read the LORD's conclusion about this matter:
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezek.18:20).
According to the proponents of Original Sin all of Adam's sons bore the sin of their father Adam.
There are other places in the Bible where this truth is revealed:
"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin" (Deut.24:16).
"But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin" (2 Chron.25:4).
Those who support the idea of Original Sin insist that Adam's death and guilt have been imputed to all his children!