Another bumper-sticker poster.
Some Jerk Brought TNP to ToL
- Thread starter Nameless.In.Grace
- Start date
Love keeps no record of wrongs.
I deleted your name from the call out OP.
Sent from my HTC One M9 using TheologyOnline mobile app
Calvin tried that.
The whole world is not the Church.
and you have no authority in the government.
Christians can only warn the sinner and give the way of escape from Gods wrath.
Paul did not kill homos, all he did was tell the church to put the unrepentant outside of the assembly.
God judges outsiders and he has far more understanding of the situation than you do.
LA
This has got to be the first time you and I agree on a thing.
Good post and nowhere as long winded as mine have been...
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
No hate zone.........
No hate zone.........
:thumb:
The WBBC are disgraceful to put it mildly.
Also:
News flash - Jesus was not a hate-mongering bigot or homophobe. He recognized that we are all God's children with inherent worth and value, no matter our gender or sexual orientation.
Also, the typical clobber passages in the Bible against so called 'homosexuality' can be more properly interpreted with modern day knowledge of the subject and the old belief-systems understood in their cultural-context. We've covered this in other threads.
No hate zone.........
:thumb:
The WBBC are disgraceful to put it mildly.
Also:
News flash - Jesus was not a hate-mongering bigot or homophobe. He recognized that we are all God's children with inherent worth and value, no matter our gender or sexual orientation.
Also, the typical clobber passages in the Bible against so called 'homosexuality' can be more properly interpreted with modern day knowledge of the subject and the old belief-systems understood in their cultural-context. We've covered this in other threads.
And so everything should be legal, is that what this is supposed to suggest?
That's a serious question. I'm not being flippant or sarcastic. I do not understand your reasoning.
I don't know what the call out OP is.
I have decided to remove you from my ignore list. So long as you aren't hysterical and are responsive, I'll keep you off. Not that you'd really care about that.
Leviticus 20:13 KJV -
Clete,
People think I'm Koo Koo bananas for speaking as I do. I do care that you have taken me off your ignore list. I also care about you as a child of God.
Clete,
The laws in place are sufficient. We mustn't try to mix religion with law. I know you don't believe this, but I have been studying about Islam since 5 years back. God is not the ruler of this world. If He was, we wouldn't have any sin, pain, death or hate. The god of dust that spreads hate is the hate default ruler of all that harm their fellow man. The grim, so to speak. This kingdom is fading. The True Kingdom will arrive when the Love of many grows cold.
Jesus was harassed for Loving as He Loved and indiscriminately so. There was no illness or sin that kept him from loving a person as they were. I follow His model, as He is my idol. The difference is that He heals our Spirits through His spirit. He tends to all our wounds that are invisible. One day, this world of sin, will be gone, and deviation from God will be gone. Until that day, all we have is Love. The Beetles had it right when they sang All you need is Love.
I speak of Christ's commission to Love and Forgive, even when it is difficult. I do not ever espouse that the innocent should be harmed by those that destroy lives. This is again, government, and Jesus was killed by religion and government.
Love is our highest calling as Christians. We are commissioned to even visit the dying and incarcerated, per Jesus. There is coming time that all who proclaim the Love and forgiveness of Jesus will fall under the sword. That time is nearing, brother. I would take up arms at your side until the last. Physical response to the wrong doing in this world is a temporary fix, though. Love is the only medicine that can bring resolution, but hate is so prevalent, we are all turned towards God and asking for His return.
This is my heart on the matter as Christ has broken me and remolded me over my time with Him. I know you are serious. I know you are following your convictions.
May the light of God's Love forever shine on you and through you.
This is my answer. It seems indirect, but I promise you that all you need to understand my madness is in these words.
God bless you.
Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
You (all those debating me on this topic) are the one making this error, not me!
What is the point of stating that love keeps no record of wrongs when talking about criminal justice? Criminal justice doesn't have anything to do (directly) with the church or those in it. The same God that taught that love keeps no record of wrongs is the same God that is Love Himself and who said to execute the homosexual and Who will throw the same into an eternal Hell if they do not repent before they die. Was God unloving when He said that? When God, having kept a record of their wrong doings, throws Satan and all who follow him into the Lake of Fire, will that be unloving?
Do you see how you are mixing principles that apply to the way believers treat each other with an issue that has nothing to do with that?
That is not the only thing the Christian can do. We live under a system of government that asks for our input and so yes, we do have authority in this government. The fact that Donald Trump, of all people, won the Republican nomination for the Presidency is proof that votes count and elections matter.
You matter too! Your individual vote may make no difference in the outcome of the election at all, depending on where you live, but regardless, you have an influence on those around you in countless ways that you aren't even aware of. We Christian ought to vote and we ought to let everyone know who we voted for (or against) and why. This government affords us a voice and we ought to use it for good. The correct Christian focus on social issues ought to be three-fold...
1. Advocate for the criminalization of that which God calls criminal.
2. Create a robust social stigma to criminal behavior to whatever extent is possible without needlessly creating one against Christianity.
3. Pray and watch for repentance and be ready to give an answer for the hope which is in us.
All three of those are critically important but they are in the correct order because each successive point affects fewer and fewer people.
That was not only a very judgmental thing for Paul to do and to teach but it was part of the social stigma aspect of the correct Christian attitude toward these issues.
No one - NO ONE - has suggested that we ought to just go out and start killing homos. That would not be just, it would not be right, it would be murder.
So again, are you suggesting that nothing be illegal?
"It's not for man to judge! Judging is God's purview and thus how can I, a mere man, tell you that is was wrong to burglarize that house and murder the family that lived there?!"
How is that not what your logic suggests?
If that isn't what you're suggesting then what are you suggesting?
Who get to decide what is and isn't legal in this country?
Why shouldn't Christians get to have a voice in that discussion?
If Christian should have a voice why wouldn't we voice God's opinion about what ought to criminal and what ought to be done with those covicted of crimes?
Resting in Him,
Clete
New Covenant
Revelation that Mercy triumphs over judgment and again Hosea 6:6
But, you already knew that, you humorous, troublemaker.
[emoji12]
Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
I've not read much of your posts but you don't seem kookoo to me. That cartoon is blasphemous, though.
:up:
By what standard?
I'm not certain what you mean by this but my instinct is to disagree.
I am not mixing religion with the law. That is what Israel's program looked like but that is not what I am advocating.
I am simply advocating justice. Justice doesn't change because you're a believer. What is just for the believer is just for the unbeliever. We, as believers, are not judged by a different standard. Spiritually speaking, when we get saved, that too is justice. That is why Jesus had to die on that cross. Death (both physical and spiritual) was the just payment for sin. When we believe we enter that death. We are baptized into Christ's death and because He conquered death, we are also resurrected to new life in Him.
All that is religious stuff that only applies to our spiritual relationship with God. It has nothing whatsoever to do with criminal justice. Criminal justice, if done correctly, does have an impact on people's individual lives and certainly does create a social system which is conducive to people getting saved but that is not its primary purpose. Before Noah's Flood, people became so evil that God repented that He had made man. Imagine that! God was sorry that He had bothered to create mankind - stunning! He was so angry that He wiped out the whole thing short eight people, Noah and his family. The first thing God did when Noah landed the Ark was to say that if a man sheds another man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed. That was the very first thing God did! WHY? It was to prevent people from ever getting that evil again - that's why. And, in fact, if we ever do get that evil again - which we will - it won't happen until mankind has completely abandoned criminal justice, which we are well on the road to doing and with a great deal of help from Christians, by the way.
Irrelevant. Unless it is your point to actually argue that we should intentionally allow the criminal justice system to be as evil and unjust as possible so as to usher in this "True Kingdom".
The Beatles were fools. I can't even believe you said that.
As for Jesus loving indiscriminately, you're simply wrong (at least in the way you mean it).
He wasn't harassed, as you put it, for being nice. He was harassed because He was anything but.
First of all, Jesus is God in the flesh. People, on the whole, intuitively hate God. But even leaving that much aside, Jesus was anything but this meek, semi-effeminate, sugary sweet, nice to everyone, leftist that Christianity wants to turn Him into.
The following is an excerpt from one of the articles I asked you to read before. If you read them at all, I doubt you got far enough to have read this section. Please just read it. It bears directly on this point - you will learn something - something important....
Jesus was offensive. Most people were offended by him. The proof for John the Baptist that Jesus was the Christ was that the blind see, the lame walk and the majority are "offended" by Him (Mat. 11:2-19). As Jesus said, "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me" (Mat. 11:6; Luke 7:23). In Galilee, Jesus did not plead with his neighbors to understand Him when "they were offended at Him" (Mat. 13:57; Mark 6:3). If unbelievers are offended, so be it (cf. Luke 14:3-4; John 5:8-16). "Shake off the dust from your feet" (Mat. 10:14). But alas, that is no longer a Christian attitude.
Christ's apostles asked Him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard [Your] saying?" (Mat. 15:12). What is the accepted Christian response today after an offense is taken? Quick, apologize! Ask for forgiveness! Tell them you are sorry. How did Jesus respond? He said to ignore the complaints of the unbelievers: "Let them alone. They are blind," (Mat. 15:14). Today, many Christians condemn Christ's attitude as unloving.
Jesus promised his followers, "you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended" (Mat. 24:9-10). When a Canadian started his call into our talk show with a vicious, "Bob, I hate you..." The response was "Cool. Great! Because Jesus taught that 'if they hated Me, they will hate you'" (see John 15:18-19; 17:14; Mat. 10:22; Luke 21:17). And why did the world hate Jesus? Not because He was overly nice, but as He said, "The world... hates me because I testify of it that its works are evil (John 7:7). Today Christians think if the world hates them, they have failed. The reverse should be true. It is not that a Christian wants to be hated; it is simply an occupational hazard.
Jesus is the Rock. Most believers are unaware, however, that Jesus used this metaphor to issue a graphic threat against the unrepentant. For Christ said that on whom that Rock "falls, it will grind him to powder" (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18). Even the Father said that the Son is the "rock of offense" (Isa. 8:14; Rom. 9:33; 1 Pet. 2:8). Offending unbelievers is Christlike in the deepest sense.
God utterly forbid drinking blood (Lev. 3:17; 17:14). Israelites, from priests, to Pharisees, to average citizens, were at least superficially obsessed with "keeping the law." Thus when Jesus said whoever "drinks My blood has eternal life," (John 6:54) He was being extremely offensive, and intentionally so. Further, He made no effort whatsoever to clarify Himself. Rather, He let the offense work its ministry. Jesus knew He even offended His own followers. As He said to "His disciples" immediately afterward, "does this offend you?" (John 6:61). After He called the scribes and Pharisees hypocrites, a lawyer said to Him, "Teacher, by saying these things You reproach us also." Jesus answered, "Woe to you also, lawyers!" (Luke 11:45-46)." For those who still didn't get it, Jesus said, "I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!" (Luke 12:5).
Christ's apostles asked Him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard [Your] saying?" (Mat. 15:12). What is the accepted Christian response today after an offense is taken? Quick, apologize! Ask for forgiveness! Tell them you are sorry. How did Jesus respond? He said to ignore the complaints of the unbelievers: "Let them alone. They are blind," (Mat. 15:14). Today, many Christians condemn Christ's attitude as unloving.
Jesus promised his followers, "you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended" (Mat. 24:9-10). When a Canadian started his call into our talk show with a vicious, "Bob, I hate you..." The response was "Cool. Great! Because Jesus taught that 'if they hated Me, they will hate you'" (see John 15:18-19; 17:14; Mat. 10:22; Luke 21:17). And why did the world hate Jesus? Not because He was overly nice, but as He said, "The world... hates me because I testify of it that its works are evil (John 7:7). Today Christians think if the world hates them, they have failed. The reverse should be true. It is not that a Christian wants to be hated; it is simply an occupational hazard.
Jesus is the Rock. Most believers are unaware, however, that Jesus used this metaphor to issue a graphic threat against the unrepentant. For Christ said that on whom that Rock "falls, it will grind him to powder" (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18). Even the Father said that the Son is the "rock of offense" (Isa. 8:14; Rom. 9:33; 1 Pet. 2:8). Offending unbelievers is Christlike in the deepest sense.
God utterly forbid drinking blood (Lev. 3:17; 17:14). Israelites, from priests, to Pharisees, to average citizens, were at least superficially obsessed with "keeping the law." Thus when Jesus said whoever "drinks My blood has eternal life," (John 6:54) He was being extremely offensive, and intentionally so. Further, He made no effort whatsoever to clarify Himself. Rather, He let the offense work its ministry. Jesus knew He even offended His own followers. As He said to "His disciples" immediately afterward, "does this offend you?" (John 6:61). After He called the scribes and Pharisees hypocrites, a lawyer said to Him, "Teacher, by saying these things You reproach us also." Jesus answered, "Woe to you also, lawyers!" (Luke 11:45-46)." For those who still didn't get it, Jesus said, "I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!" (Luke 12:5).
There is no such commission.
Love is not antithetical to criminal justice and nowhere is mankind ever given authority to forgive crimes. Even forgiving one another isn't to be done without repentance being evident.
Why do you suppose that Jesus didn't correct the criminal on the cross who was being crucified along with Him when he said that he (the criminal) was receiving his just punishment?
But being nice is not. They aren't the same thing - as the Beatles would have had you believe.
To be unjust is to be unloving.
No debate there.
Your dystopian future cannot come without nations abandoning justice.
You understand that we are never admonished to follow our heart by God, right?
Jeremiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?
“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?
It is for us, not to feel our way through life, but to know right from wrong and to do rightly and risk the consequences.
It is the Beatles of the world that would have you follow your heart. God tells us that the battle is in your mind!
Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Interesting that you should bring up God's light. Do you know what God's light is?
John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
The word translated "Word" is "Logos". It means "reason".
Read this...
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?112881-Our-Moral-God&p=4449516&viewfull=1#post4449516
Resting in Him,
Clete
Well, that carried death as a moral judgement of an immoral act, in Israel, as did a few things we don't kill people for now.
I don't think we've established that love has anything to do with it. Justice, under the law, to be sure. Love? Love is sacrificial. The definition of love within the Bible doesn't appear to have much to do with this topic. I think there's a reason for that and I think it's found at the foot of the cross.
I think you or someone touched on a point earlier that bears on this, especially on homosexuality under the unfulfilled law. God set up all sorts of practices, process and restrictions to draw a clear distinction between His people and those who surrounded them. Homosexuality, being about as clear a physical state of rebellion in relation to God's order as could be seen, makes sense as one of those hard delineations.
I don't believe that you have to be more loving than God to be more loving than some Christians and I don't think there was ever a more loving act than the cross.
Well, being God that wouldn't be an usurpation of any sort, though Jesus was demonstrably different than what people expected. Why was that? I think in part because the law wasn't merciful, wasn't particularly loving, was just and hard and set in the path of God's people to both distinguish them and to teach them the lesson of their insufficiency, of our insufficiency, the thing that required the cross and grace to remedy. Because there was nothing just in Christ dying for our sins. He transcended justice in fulfilling the law.
I don't see how anyone could say the extinguishing of the body fails to impact the eternal. I mean, consider what it means to die unrepentant in one's sin.
I'd say the law was just and only just, was only meant to be so.
What sin isn't?
And yet kings of Israel murdered and committed adultery, etc. I don't think we're overrun with homosexuals. They remain a mostly overestimated sliver of the population, as they always have been. And they're as answerable for the choices they make as they ever were, before God. As are all of us, absent grace, for the willful things we do contrary to God's will.
In our society we don't judge morally, only ethically, allowing every man to make personal moral decisions for themselves and to answer for those. No one escapes consequence.
In the posting that was eaten by a storm I did research and Gallup and others over the years have tracked both the percentage of people who claim to be homosexual and the percent the rest of us assume they comprise among people. We get it wrong, overestimate the numbers dramatically and have for some time, while the actual number is between 1.6 to 3.8% of the population, depending.
I think you're wrong on that point. I think he increased our awareness of how badly we failed the law, justice, which lay the foundation for a fuller understanding of the cross and its necessity.
Right. He came to fulfill it and to offer something the law set the table for in terms of our need. Once we died for sin, but Christ died in our place. The sort of system so many appear to want doesn't grasp or deal with that. It wasn't the physical transgression that required death, but the moral impact of that transgression, the just price for it. Christ paid it.
So am I suggesting we don't have criminal law? No. But our society, deriving its authority from God, isn't punishing moral lapses and offering that punishment to satisfy the demands of moral justice.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
doser asks:
NIG dodges, again:
when you come back, maybe you'll be able to answer this simple question :idunno:
| you said:
how is human law executed without judgement? |
NIG dodges, again:
when you come back, maybe you'll be able to answer this simple question :idunno:
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
tam, to NIG
this is why i never engage tards like NIG without first defining terms
heck, NIG can't even explain what he means by "judgement" :nono:
this is why i never engage tards like NIG without first defining terms
heck, NIG can't even explain what he means by "judgement" :nono:
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
laws allowing and encouraging abortion, divorce, adultery, pornography, etc?
NIG said:
:doh:
this is one of your more retarded statements
all law should be based on Godly precepts
all just law is
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
....has steadily turned away from God in its evolution of what it now mocking calls "justice"
I agree that this is true but I took NIG to mean the sort of mixing law and religion in the way Israel not only had criminal justice but also ceremonial laws dealing specifically with their religious practice.
Perhaps I misunderstood and your take more accurately responds to the intended point.
Regardless, wouldn't you agree that justice is not arbitrary and that it's precepts where not simply made up by God but that what He said was just was so because it was actually good?
We Christians can rightly cite God as a source of righteousness and justice but in so doing, I am not implicitly advocating any law that would require anyone to be a Christian or even to live a Christian lifestyle. I am advocating nothing at all other than justice. That people treat others as they would have themselves be treated and then when someone commits a crime that it be done unto them as they sought to do to their neighbor and, when the offense is so great that no restitution is possible, that the criminal be put to death to allow God to deal with them as He sees fit.
I'm not really sure how to respond to this and so I'm not going to respond point for point. I just want to focus on a single issue that I think will reveal the error you are making (one of them, anyway).
You seem for all the world to be advocating what is the equivalent to anarchy.
Your premise, that God no longer imputes sin to anyone, whether they're a believer or not, would seem to suggest that there should be no law of any kind.
Is that what you are suggesting?
If not, just what are you suggesting? Should there be a criminal justice code? If so, who decides what it includes and on what basis is it declared just?
If you believe it unjust to execute the homosexual, do you also find it unjust to execute murderers or to make theives pay restitution?
If Leviticus 20:13 is unjust is Exodus 22:1-5 also unjust?
If so, by what standard could you ever say that anything was illegal?
Resting in Him,
Clete
He sure does.
And He told His people to kill them.