I did! That's why I said what I said.
Should We Have Women Pastors Today ?
- Thread starter Rodger
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It isn't so much about culture, really, although that may play some minor role, depending on just what point one is trying to make.
Regardless, whether its cultural or simply practical, the thing to remember is that you shouldn't ever lose sight of the principles of grace when considering anything Paul taught. Paul was NOT setting up a new law for Christians where it is some sort of sin to have a woman teach in a church or to hold a position of authority over any man and the requirements for an elder are not a higher standard that certain men must reach before being qualified to lead their church. Instead, it is simply that men seeking to be elders ought to be good Christian men and, as a general rule, it is best for men to lead women instead of the other way around, but, if there comes a situation where that isn't the case, then we have counter examples in the bible that tell us that it's not the end of the world if a woman is entrusted with being put in charge of something.
It seems to me that we had a disconnect originally.
I did not say that I was for only men Pastors. I said that it was GOD who placed that into the Scriptures. I will say that I agree with Him though.
I think it is important to understand that in those days, women were only thought of as house keepers and child bearers. Men then considered a good mule better than a woman.
"Most" women were not educated in any way which was also another problem.
In the church I attend, we have a woman music minister, a finance chairman, ahead of the grounds keeping committee.
The issue, as always, is not the competence of women teachers or intelligence or knowledge or pedagogical skill. It’s never competence! That’s not the issue in the home or in leadership. It’s not the issue in church leadership. It always comes back to what God said.
The culture.
Deborah was a judge, not a teacher.
Athaliah was a murderer, an usurper of the throne.
"And when Athaliah the mother of Ahaziah saw that her son was dead, she arose and destroyed all the seed royal." (2 kings 11:1)
God did not anoint her queen.
She stole the title.
Because the woman was deceived in the beginning, they are not worthy of teaching man.
So none of the judges over God's people taught them anything through their judgements?
So was David.
Adam was not deceived and yet committed the same sin as Eve anyway.
How does that make Adam a better teacher?????
I love this wonderful statement: "shouldn't ever lose sight of the principles of grace".
I offer further scripture of Paul addressing the church of Colossae in support of women in Christ being just as apt to teach:
Colossians 3
(16) Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
(17) And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
I also believe that when you have an assembly gathered together that it would be best to have men in charge to keep the congregation orderly because if things get unruly and disorderly then men would be better equipped to physically control the crowd.
And I believe that is the role of a church deacon, to be a proven one that keeps things orderly and safe as he does those of his own house.
I can't say, as I wasn't there.
Were there any women chief priests ?
Woman scribes ?
Woman Pharisees ?
Woman synagogue leaders ?
Please don't try to justify a woman's sin because a man did the same thing.
The woman sinned first.
She was created for the man, not the man for the woman.
Paul says his reasons in 1 Tim 2:9-14..."In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
If we toss out the admonission about women teachers, will we also toss out the admonissions about modest apparel and sobriety ?
Maybe long hair for a covering will be next ?
How far astray is still safe to you ?
You weren't there with Adam & Eve.
None of that excludes that God sometimes used a woman as leadership role of His people.
You are mistaken to think I justify what either Adam or Eve did.
None of that justifies what either Adam or Eve did.
The same Paul wrote this to the whole church at Colossae:
Colossians 3
(16) Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
(17) And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Should we toss that out????
Correct.
Once, if you consider a judge a leader.
I don't.
Good.
Correct, but Eve was first.
No.
Women have lots of scripture describing how they are to behave themselves.
Why they want men's duties too is not understandable.
In short, there is a difference between recognizing what are best practices vs. turning those best practices into a new set of laws.
Is it best that men teach and women remain silent ("silent" in regards to teaching others, not completely mute) in the church? Yes! Is it required as a matter of morality? Certainly not! Should we then treat Paul's teaching with a grain of salt and basically ignore them because they aren't "required"? Certainly not! We should endeavor to live our lives, including what we do in a church service with as much humility and wisdom as possible and if God inspired Paul to write these things into the bible then there's probably really excellent benefits to be had by our submission to them as well as undesirable consequences if we do not.
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Paul provides the answer to the subject of woman teaching men here..."Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord." (1 Cor 14:34-37)
Well, one could say that no one was a good person to use since all have sinned.
But it does show that the ancient Jews did not ban women from sitting on the throne.
Huh? She murdered her way to the throne. She killed all the people in line for inheriting it except one and that one was hidden in the temple for six years.
And she ruled on the throne for 6 years.
And until Joash was old enough to be awatr of what was going on he was hidden. Then the high priest found reliable men in the army and instructed them to to protect Joash with their lives and when he had secured the king made it known Joash had survived. You see Athaliah's response. She would have killed Joash too to retain her power, but there were still enough men in the army who were honest to protect him. And when the people knew they made a very noisy celebration. That tells me Athaliah was not liked among the people or the spiritual leadership of the nation. That's why they killed her.
If no one had cared how evil she was she would not have been killed.
It wasn't because she was a woman.
Several evil monarchs ruled on the throne.
How would you know that? The Bible doesn't tell us that? The Bible does tell us that a bishop and an elder must be men. I don't think the argument about culture is a good argument either. Cultures always change God does not.
Ancient haters of God allowed a woman to sit on the throne. (Matt 6:24)