Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

[Lon]

No, I mean

...

Lorne Green was into Scientology?
I thought he was Jewish?

Or perhaps you meant that odd circle thingy in my "LON."

I can't remember what that font is called. It isn't scientology, but is there an R in the scientology one?

 

[Lon]

EXACTLY, They All do. Thereby fusing together two separate concepts between which the English reader CANNOT differentiate.
So when in reading about the "word of God", the typical Christian has no idea whether the text is talking about the Rhema(word) of God, or the Logos(word) of God. They are different. Again, there are 2 Word-of-God(s).

So while not kicking the hornet's nest on purpose (and I'll likely ignore all the gnashing of teeth to follow)... one can only conclude that the Bible is not the Word of God because the Bible defines what the Word of God is (both of them) and it does not include itself in its own definition - either of the two. While most people know about the Logos, few if any know of the Rhema, which is defined in Ephesians 6:17, a verse that every English translation has gotten wrong, as any second year Koine student can plainly see.

Zenn

(Thought you'd like that.)

Well, this thread is hot for it, but how would you have translated rhema? For instance: Speak/tell. Can they work in either's place and convey the same? :think: (I'm not sure this part will be all that hot - it will heat up and likely boil over after that). Imho, there isn't 'much' different between logos and rhema in meaning. Logos is attached to God as God. Whatever God says 'is' God too in some sense, for instance 'yes, this is Lon (the text isn't quite me, but it is me and most know what that means).

 

[Danoh]

And yet the KJV translators did not have an "infallible source authority" when they created their translation. History actually proves the opposite. Much better "source authorities" were discovered after this translation was published by the Church of England.

So I can see why you need to believe in "inspired translators" (and yet these very same people claimed otherwise).

This is what happens when people put their faith in books, rather than the God who desires to speak directly to all men.

It's a psychosis that says, the book must be infallible or Truth becomes impossible.

And yet, without ANY New Testament books, none whatsoever, about three thousand souls heard the Truth of Jesus and were saved.

You: People can only be saved by the Bible.

The Bible: 3,000 people were saved without a New Testament.

(So which should be believed?)

Zenn

Some thoughts...

Actually, there are many within the KJVO movement who not only do not view the KJV as a translation by inspiration, but who also view it as mostly an update on previous English translations within what they refer to as The Process of Preservation and Further Refinement.

And what you said about those 3,000 is also a bit off.

It is clear from Luke 24 and Acts 1-3 and Hebrews 1 and 2 that Pentecost had been a foretaste of that which had been foretold by Israel's Prophets; which is why Peter quotes them in Acts 2 and 3.

In other words, that was not actually New Testament ground anyway. Rather, a foretaste of it.

Thus, its Prophesied gospel.

Also, you mentioned in a prior post that Scripture as a final authority was a later development.

Not true.

It is often found being emphasized in Scripture itself.

You are obviously reasoning on these things from within your own, not too well informed awareness of them.

A few examples...

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

In memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I'll ask for it to be removed. It is/was my only concern.

It is NOW your only concern! Now that you are trying to back track. And you can still ask me to remove it?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

:nono: "My" thoughts are more complex than these. It is simply your quick and dirty caricatures. AGAIN, YOU are stuck in presupposition as well as formulas and patterns that don't change from forum to forum. You have a 'veneer' of dialogue, not real dialogue. A veneer of concern, no real concern, etc. IOW, your reasoning, concern, restatements are all shallow and routine from a file cabinet rather than current thinking. I realize this all points back to 'simpleton' which you hate, but TRY and catch common threads of response in replies to you. I'm not the first person who has said similar in even this thread. You are getting pretty much that feedback from everyone you encounter on TOL. THINK about it some more? It is reason to pause and take a self-assessment. -Lon

What a load of rhetoric (and no substance). I and others here have agreed with cobra/the discrepancies existing, yet after a 100+ pages you are still deluded in your ignorance of these realities.

Was the altar of incense in the Holy of Holies or the Holy place in the temple?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

The serpent has been thoroughly spanked by Lon, john w, AMR, daqq, steko, Tam and glory. :thumb:

Where was the altar of incense; in the Holy of Holies or the Holy place in the temple?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

EXACTLY, They All do. Thereby fusing together two separate concepts between which the English reader CANNOT differentiate.

So when in reading about the "word of God", the typical Christian has no idea whether the text is talking about the Rhema(word) of God, or the Logos(word) of God. They are different. Again, there are 2 Word-of-God(s).

So while not kicking the hornet's nest on purpose (and I'll likely ignore all the gnashing of teeth to follow)... one can only conclude that the Bible is not the Word of God because the Bible defines what the Word of God is (both of them) and it does not include itself in its own definition - either of the two. While most people know about the Logos, few if any know of the Rhema, which is defined in Ephesians 6:17, a verse that every English translation has gotten wrong, as any second year Koine student can plainly see.

Zenn

(Thought you'd like that.)

When I first read John 1 it was obvious to me that calling Jesus 'The Word' meant something different to what the English translation of 'word' meant (Why others can't see that is beyond me) and with a quick check yes indeed logos explained what was meant, as opposed to rhema.

 

[Notaclue]

When I first read John 1 it was obvious to me that calling Jesus 'The Word' mean something different to what the English translation of 'word' meant (Why others can't see that is beyond me) and with a quick check yes indeed logos explained what was meant, as opposed to rhema.

Food for thought.


#3056. logos
Strong's Concordance
logos: a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech
Original Word: λόγος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: logos
Phonetic Spelling: (log'-os)
Short Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy
Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 330x
The KJV translates Strong's G3056 in the following manner: word (218x), saying (50x), account (8x), speech (8x), Word (Christ) (7x), thing (5x),. not translated (2x), miscellaneous (32x).



#4487. rhéma

KJV Translation Count — Total: 70x
The KJV translates Strong's G4487 in the following manner: word (56x), saying (9x), thing (3x), no thing (with G3756) (1x), not translated (1x).


Heb.4:12 (Y.L.T.) for the (3056) reckoning of God is

living, and working, and sharp (5228)above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart

(3056)
reckoning = Word of God.


Eph.6:17(Y.L.T.) and the helmet of the salvation receive, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the

(4487)saying of God,

Jn.12:48 (Y.L.T.) 'He who is rejecting me, and not receiving my (4487)sayings, hath one who is
judging him, the (3056)word that I spake, that will judge him in the last day,


the (3056)word that I have spoken,


Heb.12:19 (Y.L.T.) and a sound of a trumpet, and a voice of (4487)sayings, which those having


heard did entreat that a (3056)word might not be added to them,


Rev.5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

voice of many angels (spirits)


Rev.19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

voice came out of the throne,


Jn.6:63(Y.L.T.) the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;


the (4487)sayings that I speak to you are spirit,


Rom.14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 so then every one of us shall give


(3056)account(word) of himself to God.


Matt.12:37 For by thy (3056)words thou shalt be justified, and by thy (3056)words thou shalt be condemned.



Is.59:20 (KJV) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.


My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth,



Gal.3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Jn.1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.


I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.


Peace.

 

[2003cobra]

Another Error

Another Error

Another error is worth raising.

There are a few, insignificant errors in the Bible that are clearly errors. They are insignificant for the authority and validity of scripture, but they do prove the man-made doctrine of inerrancy (a doctrine never presented in scripture) to be false.

Here is another:

Luke says the synagogue leader Jairus had a daughter alive but dying when He came to see Jesus. Jesus headed to the house of Jairus to heal the sick girl. While they were on the way, the news came that the girl had died.

Just then there came a man named Jairus, a leader of the synagogue. He fell at Jesus’ feet and begged him to come to his house, for he had a daughter, about twelve years old, who was dying. As he went, the crowds pressed in on him… While he was still speaking, someone came from the leader’s house to say, ‘Your daughter is dead; do not trouble the teacher any longer.’ When Jesus heard this, he replied, ‘Do not fear. Only believe, and she will be saved.’ When he came to the house, he did not allow anyone to enter with him, except Peter, John, and James, and the child’s father and mother. They were all weeping and wailing for her; but he said, ‘Do not weep; for she is not dead but sleeping.’ And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and called out, ‘Child, get up!’ Her spirit returned, and she got up at once. [Luke 8:41-42, 49-55a (NRSV)]

Mark says the synagogue leader Jairus had a daughter alive but at the point of death when He came to see Jesus. Jesus headed to the house of Jairus to heal the sick girl. While they were on the way, the news came that the girl had died.


Then one of the leaders of the synagogue named Jairus came and, when he saw him, fell at his feet and begged him repeatedly, ‘My little daughter is at the point of death. Come and lay your hands on her, so that she may be made well, and live.’ So he went with him… While he was still speaking, some people came from the leader’s house to say, ‘Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the teacher any further?’ But overhearing what they said, Jesus said to the leader of the synagogue, ‘Do not fear, only believe.’ He allowed no one to follow him except Peter, James, and John, the brother of James. When they came to the house of the leader of the synagogue, he saw a commotion, people weeping and wailing loudly. When he had entered, he said to them, ‘Why do you make a commotion and weep? The child is not dead but sleeping.’ And they laughed at him. Then he put them all outside, and took the child’s father and mother and those who were with him, and went in where the child was. He took her by the hand and said to her, ‘Talitha cum’, which means, ‘Little girl, get up!’ And immediately the girl got up and began to walk about (she was twelve years of age). At this they were overcome with amazement. [Mark 5:22-24a, 35-42 (NRSV)]


Matthew says the synagogue leader Jairus had a daughter who had just died when Jairus suddenly interrupted Jesus (who was talking) and asked for Jesus to raise her from the dead.

While he was saying these things to them, suddenly a leader of the synagogue came in and knelt before him, saying, ‘My daughter has just died; but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live.’ And Jesus got up and followed him, with his disciples… When Jesus came to the leader’s house and saw the flute-players and the crowd making a commotion, he said, ‘Go away; for the girl is not dead but sleeping.’ And they laughed at him. But when the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took her by the hand, and the girl got up. [Matthew 9:18-19, 23-25 (NRSV)]


There are several differences in the Matthew story, mutually exclusive facts that are errors. If Mark & Luke are the accurate story, then Matthew has the following errors:
1) The synagogue leader asked for his dead daughter to be resurrected rather than his sick daughter to be healed (a significant difference, as Mark and Luke records that once she was dead people were saying not to bother the Master).
2) Jairus knew the daughter was dead before Jesus left to help.
3) Jairus knew the daughter was dead before initially speaking to Jesus.

There may be more, but three errors in Matthew is enough for now.

God never promised us a perfect book, and the Bible does not need us to make claims for it that it does not make for itself.

 

[Zeke]

The serpent has been thoroughly spanked by Lon, john w, AMR, daqq, steko, Tam and glory. :thumb:

Of course you and the gang wouldn't see it "any other way" the outer coverings/appearances of the teachings is one witness with many facades, but the real technology that makes it come alive is within/under the covering outer layers your trying to claim is the meat of the intent, that's a lot of elbow grease to keep a shine on that Tomb you have only peeked in, kinda dark in there Psalms 78:2.

Romans 9:13, Romans 7:15,22

 

[jsanford108]

Hello there 2003cobra and Zenn,

You two seem to be the most logical persons who are opposing the inerrant nature doctrine of Scripture. While I haven't been participating, I have been keeping up with the thread and trying as best I can to follow along with the various debates and discussions. From what I can infer, you two are coming in from an unchanging/closed idea of the Scriptures being errant (if I am wrong, please correct me), while, consistently, your opposition comes in with unchanging/closed idea of inerrant Scripture.

If I may, I would like to take a fresh approach to the discussion with one or both of you, as you two seem to be the most reasonable (and cobra is the OP after all). I will inform you upfront, as 2003cobra knows, that I do ascribe to the doctrine of the inerrant Scriptures. Yet, I am always open to logic and evidence. With that, I would just like a basic argument, as well as evidence/logic for your position. (For example, I noticed that the genealogy of Joseph was a particular piece of evidence)

I look forward to your response(s) and the discussion.

 

[daqq]

Hello there 2003cobra and Zenn,

You two seem to be the most logical persons who are opposing the inerrant nature doctrine of Scripture. While I haven't been participating, I have been keeping up with the thread and trying as best I can to follow along with the various debates and discussions. From what I can infer, you two are coming in from an unchanging/closed idea of the Scriptures being errant (if I am wrong, please correct me), while, consistently, your opposition comes in with unchanging/closed idea of inerrant Scripture.

If I may, I would like to take a fresh approach to the discussion with one or both of you, as you two seem to be the most reasonable (and cobra is the OP after all). I will inform you upfront, as 2003cobra knows, that I do ascribe to the doctrine of the inerrant Scriptures. Yet, I am always open to logic and evidence. With that, I would just like a basic argument, as well as evidence/logic for your position. (For example, I noticed that the genealogy of Joseph was a particular piece of evidence)

I look forward to your response(s) and the discussion.

The portion in red is incorrect but it will be interesting to watch from the sidelines anyways.

opcorn:

 

[Lon]

It is NOW your only concern! Now that you are trying to back track. And you can still ask me to remove it?

I did ask mods. Yes, if you would edit it, I'd appreciate it. Again, my kids aren't on here but some members kids are so, please even. Thanks for offering.

 

[Lon]

What a load of rhetoric (and no substance). I and others here have agreed with cobra/the discrepancies existing, yet after a 100+ pages you are still deluded in your ignorance of these realities.

Was the altar of incense in the Holy of Holies or the Holy place in the temple?

Oh sure, keep moving the goal post. It is clear that reading me angers you. Rhetoric? Nope. Again, "You just don't like it" is the correct answer.

Let's stay with two donkeys:

You are incorrect, there is no error. When the Lord told us to fetch the colt, several of us were there. One of us was told, I was busy with a discussion and when done, the Lord said go also and bring the two donkeys. What He said to the other? They've already told you. ASKING would have been the polite and proper way to approach this topic. Accusing error? Not Cool. -a speculative response of Matthew

Guess what? In EVERY scenario like this, you will stand before God for the accusation. You simply don't know YET are audacious enough to insist it is an error. YOU have to stand before our Lord and Savior for this. There is NO problem standing before Him and not bringing an accusation! :noway: WHY put yourself in the judgement seat? THAT seems insane to me. It really does. Do you EVER stop and think about standing before Him for your words? I do. We are responsible for every careless word and false accusation. It doesn't matter if you 'think' it isn't. You should be 100% resolute because this is a big deal. You and Cobra WILL stand before the Lord for this. No question. Be VERY sure. If wrong? Hebrews 10:31

 

[jsanford108]

The portion in red is incorrect but it will be interesting to watch from the sidelines anyways.

opcorn:

Feel free to participate friend. And my bad on the incorrect OP; I was basing it off my poor memory of discussion on this thread some time back (most of my discussion was with 2003cobra then; hence my false attribution).


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[daqq]

Lorne Green was into Scientology?
I thought he was Jewish?

Or perhaps you meant that odd circle thingy in my "LON."

I can't remember what that font is called. It isn't scientology, but is there an R in the scientology one?

Think "Hubbard" and you will immediately perceive his "jab".

 

[Lon]

Think "Hubbard" and you will immediately perceive his "jab".

And yet another interesting idea. Since I've never posted a thing like scientology, it was and is just a little too detached, even if 'immediate.'

I suppose if an L.Ron Hubbard jab, it would also be a bit out there for it.

So for me: the humor of a random mind.

I can appreciate that, I'm a bit random at times and such allowed for a meandering of connections and a bit of humor in a thread a bit too tight for its proverbial britches.

 

[2003cobra]

Oh sure, keep moving the goal post. It is clear that reading me angers you. Rhetoric? Nope. Again, "You just don't like it" is the correct answer.

Let's stay with two donkeys:



Guess what? In EVERY scenario like this, you will stand before God for the accusation. You simply don't know YET are audacious enough to insist it is an error. YOU have to stand before our Lord and Savior for this. There is NO problem standing before Him and not bringing an accusation! :noway: WHY put yourself in the judgement seat? THAT seems insane to me. It really does. Do you EVER stop and think about standing before Him for your words? I do. We are responsible for every careless word and false accusation. It doesn't matter if you 'think' it isn't. You should be 100% resolute because this is a big deal. You and Cobra WILL stand before the Lord for this. No question. Be VERY sure. If wrong? Hebrews 10:31

You say that I will stand before the Lord for pointing out the truth that:
1) The Bible never claims to be inerrant
2) We should worship God, not a book
3) We should not pretend obvious errors do not exist
4) Making inerrancy a core doctrine is a slippery slope that has caused many to stumble and
5) False doctrines of man falsely presented as teachings of God damage the kingdom of God.

Yes, I prefer that to telling lies about the scriptures and pretending obvious errors can be dismissed as “discrepancies.”

Do you think about standing before Him with your statements? And you have the great sin, in that you say you have been to seminary and have had ample opportunity to choose truth or man-made, obviously wrong traditions. To whom much is given, much is required.

 

[2003cobra]

Hello there 2003cobra and Zenn,

You two seem to be the most logical persons who are opposing the inerrant nature doctrine of Scripture. While I haven't been participating, I have been keeping up with the thread and trying as best I can to follow along with the various debates and discussions. From what I can infer, you two are coming in from an unchanging/closed idea of the Scriptures being errant (if I am wrong, please correct me), while, consistently, your opposition comes in with unchanging/closed idea of inerrant Scripture.

If I may, I would like to take a fresh approach to the discussion with one or both of you, as you two seem to be the most reasonable (and cobra is the OP after all). I will inform you upfront, as 2003cobra knows, that I do ascribe to the doctrine of the inerrant Scriptures. Yet, I am always open to logic and evidence. With that, I would just like a basic argument, as well as evidence/logic for your position. (For example, I noticed that the genealogy of Joseph was a particular piece of evidence)

I look forward to your response(s) and the discussion.

I welcome your contributions.

 

[George Affleck]

Look at the context, George:

Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. 9 For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; 10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13 And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

We don’t know fully. We only know in part.
Prophecies have not ended.
Tongues continue.
We still see in a mirror dimly, that is why we don’t all agree.
We don’t yet see face to face.
And I think it is obvious John W. doesn’t love me, as I love him and want him to do better.

So this time has not yet come.

John w. still speaks as a child, with tirades against those trying to speak the truth.

No, the time Paul described is yet to come.

I began to answer this post and realized there is likely a complete book that could be written on it. You have been a catalyst for me to begin that process. So I will just give you short answers here for now.

Your version does a very poor job of conveying the original ideas of Paul, in my opinion.
The use of the word "love" instead of "charity", for example, does not convey the agape concept. It's a catch-all word and far too widely misused. When we run across "charity" in the AV, we immediately question the meaning. The result is education; an appreciation of agape love, which is specifically generous actions upon the helpless (how God treats us), and the bonus of understanding the language we speak. If the word "love" is used, it invites misunderstanding and laziness.
Another example is using "end" instead of "fail". ekpiptō means to fall from a position. Prophecies, tongues and knowledge, all supernatural gifts given to the disciples of Jesus to kickstart the Christian church, were no longer required, not when they ended but, when their purpose for being ended.
I will not give more examples here, of which there are many, regarding the excellence and timeless relevance of the KJV.

Context:
The whole chapter is about contrasting those things which, by nature of emanating from God, are perfect and abiding with that which is necessary for a time but will be replaced by that which is perfect.
If you think that Paul is describing only a future or eternal state, why, when speaking of those things which are perfect because they come from Him, (love, faith and hope) does he say; "Now abide these three"? Shouldn't he have said; "These will come at a later time"? God is love. Love does not exist here on earth but that it spills out from heaven upon us. We are judged by how we treat God's unspeakable gifts. God commends His love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. His perfect love came to the earth in the person of Jesus. Just because you are unhappy with your life the way it is is no reason to deny God's ability to place perfection here and now on earth. Faith and hope are also gifts from God.

Supernatural tongues have certainly ceased as Paul said the would. The reason for this gift was to fulfill Jesus' prophecy in Matt 24:14KJV before the end of the Jewish economy (the end) and was predicted by Joel. The gospel was preached to witnesses from every nation under heaven at Pentecost (Acts 2) in their own languages.

Supernaturally gifted prophecies, tongues and knowledge have been replaced by something durable and lasting, for all generations, the complete revelation from God. All that is necessary for being saved and to live the Christian life to His glory is now available to us.

Imagine a world where the New Testament had never been written and preserved. Without it we cannot have a full-grown knowledge of God, let alone how to be saved.

The word "perfect" (τέλειος) means complete, mature, full grown. It cannot refer to Christ as it is neuter. It corresponds to that which is "in part". It is the fullness of God's revelation. Everything God intends for us to know has arrived. And because it is from Him, it is perfect.