Science--A strong delusion

popsthebuilder

New member
This is simply false.

Science, or at least the intellectual process thereof (i.e. whether it was called 'science' or not), came before and resulting in mathematics, not the other way around.

Mathematics is nothing at all but a language. You can tell as many lies as you like with mathematics.

Clete
I agree; math is not science in itself.

I do not agree that science came before math.

I suppose one repeatedly insisting another is lying isn't exactly the same as insisting another is a liar.

My points still stand; every one of them, but I'm not going to be arguing about them for no reason; not because I can't support my claims (I assure you I can), but because it will profit neither of us, and would be fruitless strife.

mathematics is science.

You don't have to believe me.... Google it.

Here; let me help;


the abstract science of number, quantity, and space. Mathematics may be studied in its own right (*pure mathematics*), or as it is applied to other disciplines such as physics and engineering (*applied mathematics*).

the mathematical aspects of something.

plural noun:*mathematics


Undoubtedly this is so but that isn't what I'm arguing. I'm arguing, and I think you know this, that mathematics is not science. Mathematics can be scientific if done properly but that can only happen when the science has been done correctly and when the mathematics are based on and proceeds from the actual science.


You would if you had an argument to make.


The thread is all still here for everyone to read. I didn't accuse you of anything aside from having stated something that was false. You'd have had to say something you knew was false in order for it to be a lie. I never made any such accusation and you know it.

In fact, because you know it, this accusation of yours amounts to a lie.

Feel better?


All science, all branches, all fields. Science is NOT fundamentally about math - period.

Mathematics is obviously used extensively and to good effect in many, if not most cases. But you can, and scientists often do, go way too far with the mathematics. Especially theoretical physicists as well as climatologists.


Of course, you can!

I predict that the sun will rise tomorrow after having set tonight.

I predict that if I set a ball on an inclined plane, it will roll down the plane rather than up it.

I predict that an object in motion will remain in motion unless and until acted upon by a force.


Further, the numbers to which you refer, things like measurements of volume, temperature, distance, time etc. are all arbitrary. An inch is an inch because we call it that, not because of the objectively independent nature of distance. Same goes for every unit of measure you can name. If an inch or a degree or a second where 21.546389% bigger or smaller, the mathematics would still work so long as you were consistent throughout. Guess what that means? It means that mathematics is not "utter truth". If you think otherwise, then attempt to formulate an argument that proceeds from a fundamentally arbitrary premise to an absolute conclusion if you like. Good luck with that. Presuming that mathematics is "utter truth" is tacitly making that exact claim.


I'm not arguing that scientists do not use mathematics nor that they shouldn't use mathematics nor even that it isn't extremely useful to do so. What I am arguing is that math is not science - period. Math and science are not the same things as your comment implies. Mathematics is not even a branch of science, and it most certainly is NOT "utter truth".

Clete


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Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I agree; math is not science in itself.

I do not agree that science came before math.

I suppose one repeatedly insisting another is lying isn't exactly the same as insisting another is a liar.

My points still stand; every one of them, but I'm not going to be arguing about them for no reason; not because I can't support my claims (I assure you I can), but because it will profit neither of us, and would be fruitless strife.

mathematics is science.

You don't have to believe me.... Google it.

Here; let me help;


the abstract science of number, quantity, and space. Mathematics may be studied in its own right (*pure mathematics*), or as it is applied to other disciplines such as physics and engineering (*applied mathematics*).

the mathematical aspects of something.

plural noun:*mathematics





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The only way for you to support your original claim, which you've moved off of now (thank you), is to alter your use of the term mathematics. The only way mathematics is itself a science is if one is studying mathematics itself. That is studying mathematical theory as one might study music theory. If you are studying, in some objective manner, the how and why of the way mathematics work then you are doing science.

But that isn't what you meant when you made mathematics the ultimate science and said that it is "utter truth".

Mathematics is a very advanced form of rational thought. It developed and evolved over thousands of years. There can be no doubt whatsoever that science, the process of rational objective investigation, came long before numbers of any sort, never mind systematic mathematics. Indeed, mathematics would have to have been the result of such a rational thought process. It could not possibly have predated it. Mathematics describes things. Before you can say something as simple as, "I have two apples.", you have to understand what an apple is and that it isn't the same as an orange or a rock or the tree from which it grew. Surely you can see how that would be a simpler more natural distinction to make than would be the far more abstract concepts of 'one' and 'two' and 'three' and 'add' and 'subtract'. Before a man can spend his time thinking up abstract concepts such as those involved in mathematics, he has to feed himself and in order to feed himself, he has to understand what food is and how to collect it. The process of learning to do that is a rational process of discovery and learning about the world in which one lives - a.k.a. science.


Finally, it was never my intention to "argue" in the hostile sense of the word. This is a debate forum, is it not? When someone says something you think is wrong, how is it offensive to say so in such a place? It's not like I dove in with "You're a lying sack of bat crap, you stupid fool!" or something like that. I simply said that your claim was false and proceeded to explain why. No one said you have to agree.

Clete
 

Derf

Well-known member
I think much more progress could be made if we can settle on the meaning of "science" as Paul intended, rather than our current definitions.

Other translations use "knowledge". And the same Holy Spirit also inspired the imperative, "Get knowledge." I'm certain He wouldn't want us to get a delusion.

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Squeaky

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Mathematics is a very advanced form of rational thought. It developed and evolved over thousands of years. There can be no doubt whatsoever that science, the process of rational objective investigation, came long before numbers of any sort, never mind systematic mathematics. Indeed, mathematics would have to have been the result of such a rational thought process.

I said
Carnal(Rational) State Of Mind-Milk State Of Mind Spiritual State Of Mind-Meat

The carnal state of mind which is taught by society. Is we're good people we dont do what them bad people do. Now the policemen lie, trick, deceive, and manipulate so they can put a bad guy in jail. And he is a bad guy because he lie's, tricks, deceive's, and manipulates society. This is the rational mind.

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Rom 8:27
27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
1 Cor 5:7-8
7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Eph 4:22-24
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
Col 3:10
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
John 3:33-34
33 "He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.
34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
(NKJ)

xxx Society teaches us to chase our dreams, and never settle . The bible teaches us to be content no matter what we have.


Heb 13:5-6
5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
6 So we may boldly say: "The Lord is my helper; I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
1 Tim 6:8-9
8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content.
9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.
Phil 4:11-13
11 Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content:
12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
Luke 3:14
14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, "And what shall we do?" So he said to them, "Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages."
(NKJ)

xxx Society has changed lust and coveting into love. If you lust after a woman or money just call it love. Women dress to arouse men, to tempt them. Men use money to arouse women. Society accepts this behavior. The bible calls them all sins.


Rom 13:9
9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
James 4:1-5
1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members?
2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask.
3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?
Matt 5:28
28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
(NKJ)

xxx Society teaches that rich is successfull. The bible teaches being rich is a sin. That the poor are blessed.

James 5:1-6

1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you!
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten.
3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.
4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.
5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter.
6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.
Rev 3:17
17 "Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'-- and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--
James 2:1-4
1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.
2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes,
3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, "You sit here in a good place," and say to the poor man, "You stand there," or, "Sit here at my footstool,"
4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
(NKJ)

xxx Society walks according to the carnal mind. The carnal mind has the enfluence of emotions, devils, feelings, lusts, covetings, evil thoughts, perversions, deceptions.

Eph 4:17-19
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart;
19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
(NKJ)

xxx What greater test could God have than to ask you to believe something exists that doesnt exist. And to do it by faith. Faith in Gods Word that it is all true. Because only then will you see it work as it says it will work.

Rom 4:17-18
17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") in the presence of Him whom he believed-- God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "So shall your descendants be."
(NKJ)

xxx You know what the carnal mind is, you have one from birth. The Spiritual mind is different. There is no high, no low, no length, no depth, no logic, no reasoning, no feelings, no emotions, no post, no future, no truth, outside the Word of God. What ever the verse says is just exactly what I believe. And respond to.

John 7:38
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
(NKJ)
1 Cor 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
(NKJ)
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(NKJ)
 

popsthebuilder

New member
The only way for you to support your original claim, which you've moved off of now (thank you), is to alter your use of the term mathematics. The only way mathematics is itself a science is if one is studying mathematics itself. That is studying mathematical theory as one might study music theory. If you are studying, in some objective manner, the how and why of the way mathematics work then you are doing science.

But that isn't what you meant when you made mathematics the ultimate science and said that it is "utter truth".

Mathematics is a very advanced form of rational thought. It developed and evolved over thousands of years. There can be no doubt whatsoever that science, the process of rational objective investigation, came long before numbers of any sort, never mind systematic mathematics. Indeed, mathematics would have to have been the result of such a rational thought process. It could not possibly have predated it. Mathematics describes things. Before you can say something as simple as, "I have two apples.", you have to understand what an apple is and that it isn't the same as an orange or a rock or the tree from which it grew. Surely you can see how that would be a simpler more natural distinction to make than would be the far more abstract concepts of 'one' and 'two' and 'three' and 'add' and 'subtract'. Before a man can spend his time thinking up abstract concepts such as those involved in mathematics, he has to feed himself and in order to feed himself, he has to understand what food is and how to collect it. The process of learning to do that is a rational process of discovery and learning about the world in which one lives - a.k.a. science.


Finally, it was never my intention to "argue" in the hostile sense of the word. This is a debate forum, is it not? When someone says something you think is wrong, how is it offensive to say so in such a place? It's not like I dove in with "You're a lying sack of bat crap, you stupid fool!" or something like that. I simply said that your claim was false and proceeded to explain why. No one said you have to agree.

Clete
Look; I'm over it.... Really.

peace

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Clete

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Silver Subscriber
Mathematics is a very advanced form of rational thought. It developed and evolved over thousands of years. There can be no doubt whatsoever that science, the process of rational objective investigation, came long before numbers of any sort, never mind systematic mathematics. Indeed, mathematics would have to have been the result of such a rational thought process.
Learn how to use the quote feature, moron!

I said
Carnal(Rational) State Of Mind-Milk State Of Mind Spiritual State Of Mind-Meat

The carnal state of mind which is taught by society. Is we're good people we dont do what them bad people do. Now the policemen lie, trick, deceive, and manipulate so they can put a bad guy in jail. And he is a bad guy because he lie's, tricks, deceive's, and manipulates society. This is the rational mind.
No, it isn't! That's hypocrisy! It is fundamentally self-contradictory which is what makes it hypocrisy. It's the opposite of rationality.

xxx Society teaches us to chase our dreams, and never settle . The bible teaches us to be content no matter what we have.
No one here cares what society teaches and I'd bet that you couldn't rationally defend either statement anyway.

The Bible teaches us to work for our food and to save for the future and not to be lazy. In short, it teaches us to be wise in all areas of our lives. It does not teach us to sit on our butts reading the bible all day and wait for God to drop our food (i.e. our needs) in our laps.

xxx Society has changed lust and coveting into love. If you lust after a woman or money just call it love. Women dress to arouse men, to tempt them. Men use money to arouse women. Society accepts this behavior. The bible calls them all sins.
All things we learn in grade school level Bible classes. Way to go. What does it have to do with the topic of the thread or anything I've said? Nothing!

xxx Society teaches that rich is successfull. The bible teaches being rich is a sin. That the poor are blessed.
You're a fool. The Bible does not teach that it is a sin to be rich. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

xxx Society walks according to the carnal mind. The carnal mind has the enfluence of emotions, devils, feelings, lusts, covetings, evil thoughts, perversions, deceptions.
Another third-grade level observation, Sherlock.

xxx What greater test could God have than to ask you to believe something exists that doesnt exist. And to do it by faith. Faith in Gods Word that it is all true. Because only then will you see it work as it says it will work.
God is not a liar. He does not ask us to believe in the non-existent or the self-contradictory. God is NOT a liar. Faith is not contrary to reason, it is dependent upon it. You're talking about blind belief. Real faith is about accepting the substantive evidence of things not seen. What you're talking about has nothing to do with biblical faith.

xxx You know what the carnal mind is, you have one from birth.
The Bible says that we are all born with a knowledge of God - just the opposite of your mystic religious dogma that has almost nothing at all to do with the what the bible actually teaches. Which, by the way, you could not even read nor understand without reason and logic. And since you reject reason, that explains your idiotic dogma.

The Spiritual mind is different. There is no high, no low, no length, no depth, no logic, no reasoning, no feelings, no emotions, no post, no future, no truth, outside the Word of God. What ever the verse says is just exactly what I believe. And respond to.
You're a liar and a fool. :rotfl:

And yes, I mean both of those words literally. I firmly believe that you know that the things you say are false, even if on just an intuitive level. You spread lies and defame God's character and undermine His justice and righteousness which cannot be practiced without the mind. The war we fight with evil is fought in the mind. I'm not talking about the biological brain but the mind where you most fundamentally exist. It can be fought nowhere else and by no other means and you intentionally turn yours off (or attempt to) and teach others to do the same. The Bible, on the other hand, teaches that we have the mind of Christ.

You believe what your doctrine tells you to believe about what the Bible means. You claim not to use reason but reject any doctrine that you feel contradicts your dogma! That's reason at work. That's logic in practice except that you're operating from false premises and thereby reject the truth.
Your real problem is that you commit a kind of mental suicide because the fundamental thing that you reject is the very thing that would allow you to correct any error you might make. You're permanently stuck in the mire of stupidity by virtue of having cut your own legs off.

Thank you for reminding me why I had you on ignore. That's where you deserve to be.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Squeaky

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Banned
Learn how to use the quote feature, moron!


No, it isn't! That's hypocrisy! It is fundamentally self-contradictory which is what makes it hypocrisy. It's the opposite of rationality.


No one here cares what society teaches and I'd bet that you couldn't rationally defend either statement anyway.
You believe what your doctrine tells you to believe about what the Bible means. You claim not to use reason but reject any doctrine that you feel contradicts your dogma! That's reason at work. That's logic in practice except that you're operating from false premises and thereby reject the truth.
Your real problem is that you commit a kind of mental suicide because the fundamental thing that you reject is the very thing that would allow you to correct any error you might make. You're permanently stuck in the mire of stupidity by virtue of having cut your own legs off.


You're a fool. The Bible does not teach that it is a sin to be rich. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Thank you for reminding me why I had you on ignore. That's where you deserve to be.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I said
lol No I'm a real Christian. You really should see what else the new testament teaches.

[Mat 5:22-24
22 "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 "Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 "leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

But you do demonstrate the rational mind.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I think much more progress could be made if we can settle on the meaning of "science" as Paul intended, rather than our current definitions.

Other translations use "knowledge". And the same Holy Spirit also inspired the imperative, "Get knowledge." I'm certain He wouldn't want us to get a delusion.

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Well, that's exactly right. I'm sure that most of the disagreement that popsthebuilder and I have has more to do with what we mean by science that anything else. But that is what a debate forum is for, or at least that's what it should be for. Airing out differences over the details.
 

Clete

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I said
lol No I'm a real Christian. You really should see what else the new testament teaches.

[Mat 5:22-24
22 "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 "Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 "leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

But you do demonstrate the rational mind.

The best test to know that you've pegged a fool correctly is to see how quickly that pull Matthew 5 out of context and present it as a fail proof defense.

You've done it immediately while completely ignoring every argument made against you. You ought to be ashamed of yourself, but I know that you aren't.

Anyone who gives you the time of day is wasting their time.

Good bye and good riddance.

Clete
 
Last edited:

Squeaky

BANNED
Banned
The best test to know that you've begged a fool correctly is to see how quickly that pull Matthew 25 out of context and present it as a fail proof defense.

You've done it immediately while completely ignoring every argument made against you. You ought to be ashamed of yourself, but I know that you aren't.

Anyone who gives you the time of day is wasting their time.

Good bye and good riddance.

Clete

I said
lol The rational mind does get all emotional don't they. Its not Matt 25. Its Matt 5
 

expos4ever

Well-known member
Ancient man was pretty darn smart if you ask me. Heck, just go back to the Civil War of America and try to read a letter that a soldier wrote to his girl back home, it's hard to understand because we are getting worse, not better (as evolutionists would have you believe), with each generation.
Getting worse in what way? I suggest that what evidence there is suggests that we are getting "smarter" as time marches on. From Wikipedia:

The increasing test performance over time appears on every major test, in every age range, at every ability level, and in every modern industrialized country, although not necessarily at the same rate as in the United States. The increase has been continuous and roughly linear from the earliest days of testing to the present. Though the effect is most associated with IQ increases, a similar effect has been found with increases in attention and of semantic and episodic memory.
 

JudgeRightly

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Getting worse in what way? I suggest that what evidence there is suggests that we are getting "smarter" as time marches on. From Wikipedia:

The increasing test performance over time appears on every major test, in every age range, at every ability level, and in every modern industrialized country, although not necessarily at the same rate as in the United States. The increase has been continuous and roughly linear from the earliest days of testing to the present. Though the effect is most associated with IQ increases, a similar effect has been found with increases in attention and of semantic and episodic memory.
Please read through this:

kgov.com/genius

It addresses your points.
 

Clete

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I found a quote that does a good job of concisely stating what I was getting at with my comments concerning mathematics vs. science....

"Virtual models operating within computer algorithms have replaced direct observation in recent years: the natural philosophy of science has been abandoned. Computer models are used to build other models, which, in turn, are used to “confirm” further models. Physics used to mean investigating the nature and properties of matter and energy. Instead, it has become the handmaiden to mathematics." - Stephen Smith

Clete
 
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