Salvation Through Mary?

[jsanford108]

GT, your points on Mary not be a co-redeemer, sole mediator between man and God, is correct. I am not disagreeing with either of those.

Making a claim about a religion doesn't make it truth, either. You can argue that the Catholic Church does something, but that doesn't mean you are accurate or right. Likewise, denial of claims of practice and dogma, is not truth by default either. Such claims are only valid if sufficient evidence and proofs are present, in conjunction with the claims. Such evidence and proofs should therefore be submitted with arguments in discussions, such as these, to allow efficient demonstration and growth of knowledge.

Thus far, in my opinion, I have brought such evidence and proofs.

I would enjoy a discussion about Catholicism, one on one. Due to my new membership here at TOL, I am limited in my knowledge of its mechanics, and restricted in abilities. If there is a way for such a discussion to occur, I welcome it.

 

[jsanford108]

Jerry,
I would just like to express my gratitude for your posts. (I appreciate you, as well, GT)
You present proofs to back up your claims and defend them in a very knowledgeable manner. It is my intention to acknowledge this, and express my appreciation. I didn't want you to think I had forgotten about you, nor dismissed you in any capacity. GT was just the most recent poster and the hottest debater most recently.

 

[clefty]

You can use those initials when replying to me. Thank you for asking.

You did merely deny that the Catholics exalt Mary to a place she does not belong.

Mary is not co-redeemer.

She is not the one who is to intercede between God and humans.

I will give you scriptures where only Jesus are those things.

Just because you deny something about your denomination, it does not make it true.

I would love to talk to you more about the Catholic religion.

Like an idol needs a "holy" altar...and a lie more lies...so too has this Mariolatry necessitated further lies...about the state of the dead...

Eccl. 9:10:

For there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

There that settles it.

Mary is just dead. Knows nothing. Her Savior will wake her up.

 

[God's Truth]

Like an idol needs a "holy" altar...and a lie more lies...so too has this Mariolatry necessitated further lies...about the state of the dead...

Eccl. 9:10:

For there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

There that settles it.

Mary is just dead. Knows nothing. Her Savior will wake her up.

Our physical bodies die but our spirits do not.

 

[God's Truth]

GT, your points on Mary not be a co-redeemer, sole mediator between man and God, is correct. I am not disagreeing with either of those.

Making a claim about a religion doesn't make it truth, either. You can argue that the Catholic Church does something, but that doesn't mean you are accurate or right. Likewise, denial of claims of practice and dogma, is not truth by default either. Such claims are only valid if sufficient evidence and proofs are present, in conjunction with the claims. Such evidence and proofs should therefore be submitted with arguments in discussions, such as these, to allow efficient demonstration and growth of knowledge.

Thus far, in my opinion, I have brought such evidence and proofs.

I would enjoy a discussion about Catholicism, one on one. Due to my new membership here at TOL, I am limited in my knowledge of its mechanics, and restricted in abilities. If there is a way for such a discussion to occur, I welcome it.

I am not sure about the one on one rules here.

We can discuss more here about Mary though.

The Catholics do call Mary co redeemer and says she intercedes for humans.

Catholics say to ask Mary for salvation, etc, they say because Jesus will not turn down a request from his mother.

It is easy for you to look this up on the Internet.

Could you look it up, it will not take you too long and it is worth it.

 

[God's Truth]

Jerry,
I would just like to express my gratitude for your posts. (I appreciate you, as well, GT)
You present proofs to back up your claims and defend them in a very knowledgeable manner. It is my intention to acknowledge this, and express my appreciation. I didn't want you to think I had forgotten about you, nor dismissed you in any capacity. GT was just the most recent poster and the hottest debater most recently.

Thank you for your kindness.

 

[clefty]

Our physical bodies die but our spirits do not.

Our spirits do not? And what? shout at each other back and forth across the chasm...for water on one side...and from the other constant sermons on why they thirst in the first place?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Catholics do call Mary co redeemer and says she intercedes for humans.

Catholics say to ask Mary for salvation, etc, they say because Jesus will not turn down a request from his mother.

It is easy for you to look this up on the Internet.

Here is what I found about the teaching of Rome concerning Mary on the internet:

"The power thus put into her hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help as though impelled by an instinct of nature, confidently sharing with her their future hopes and past achievements, their sorrows and joys, commending themselves like children to the care of a bountiful mother. How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as "our Lady, our Mediatrix," "the Reparatrix of the whole world," "the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts" (ADIUTRICEM, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, promulgated on September 5, 1895).​

 

[God's Truth]

Here is what I found about the teaching of Rome concerning Mary on the internet:

"The power thus put into her hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help as though impelled by an instinct of nature, confidently sharing with her their future hopes and past achievements, their sorrows and joys, commending themselves like children to the care of a bountiful mother. How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as "our Lady, our Mediatrix," "the Reparatrix of the whole world," "the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts" (ADIUTRICEM, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, promulgated on September 5, 1895).​

So glad you posted that. I am going to keep that information with my notes in case I come across another Catholic who does not believe me when I tell them.

The Catholics say things to Mary and about her that should only be said about Jesus Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

Our spirits do not? And what? shout at each other back and forth across the chasm...for water on one side...and from the other constant sermons on why they thirst in the first place?

You do not believe in the life of the spirit after the death of the body?
Would you like to discuss it more?
How about it if you make a thread on it?

 

[keypurr]

You do not believe in the life of the spirit after the death of the body?
Would you like to discuss it more?
How about it if you make a thread on it?

What is the state of the Dead?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.

All will be raised

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurre2ction of damnation.

 

[God's Truth]

What is the state of the Dead?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

The Old Testament spoke about earthly things, and the New Testament is about what is spiritual.

The Old Testament is prophecies, and the New Testament is prophecies revealed.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.

All will be raised

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurre2ction of damnation.

That is about a new resurrected physical body.

 

[clefty]

What is the state of the Dead?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.

All will be raised

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurre2ction of damnation.

And before she went to sleep she no longer was His mother as He gave her John as His replacement...


"Who is my mother? My brothers and sisters? Those that do the will of my Father..."

 

[jsanford108]

I am not sure about the one on one rules here.

We can discuss more here about Mary though.

The Catholics do call Mary co redeemer and says she intercedes for humans.

Catholics say to ask Mary for salvation, etc, they say because Jesus will not turn down a request from his mother.

It is easy for you to look this up on the Internet.

Could you look it up, it will not take you too long and it is worth it.

While the quote provided by Jerry is an accurate quote, and one which I agree with, it does not give Mary the tittle of Co-redeemer, or Savior, in any form. A mediator is not a redeemer. A dispenser of heavenly gifts is not a redeemer. These titles in no way point to, or allude to, Mary as a redeemer or co-redeemer.

Furthermore, petitioning Mary for something does not guarantee it will be given because "Jesus can't say no to his Mother." That is a common joke that is made, mainly by Catholics, but is not taken seriously.

I think the issue that keeps revealing itself in these posts is the misconception that Mary is worshiped and put on the same level as Christ. My quotes, taken directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, show that this is not taught or held by the Catholic Church. Now I know, that GT will say I am just denying truth, yet my evidence is from the single book which holds all the teachings and positions of the Church.

Also, the theological positions and dogmas held by the Catholic Church have been unchanging since its inception. And if you need historical proof of Marian devotion, look at the writings of Tertullian, Justin Martyr, etc.

 

[jsanford108]

Like an idol needs a "holy" altar...and a lie more lies...so too has this Mariolatry necessitated further lies...about the state of the dead...

Eccl. 9:10:

For there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

There that settles it.

Mary is just dead. Knows nothing. Her Savior will wake her up.

Dear friend,
You aren't even believing in the eternal soul, nor Christ Himself.

When Christ looked to the thief, and says "Today you will dine with me in paradise," was Christ lying? If you refer to an earlier post of mine, I point out how the crucifixion is the pinnacle of creation itself. Christ spoke seven times. Wouldn't it make sense for these moments to be of divine importance? So why would Christ just say something to a thief for no reason? Or something that wasn't true?

As far as the eternal soul, many times throughout the Bible, when a person died, they immediately went to heaven, or hell. Christ mentions it in several parables and sometimes hair straight up says it. The epistles are also full of references. By saying a person is dead just waiting for a wake up is contradictory to Scripture and the teachings contained therein.

 

[jsanford108]

I meant "he," not "hair." My apologies.

 

[God's Truth]

While the quote provided by Jerry is an accurate quote, and one which I agree with, it does not give Mary the tittle of Co-redeemer, or Savior, in any form. A mediator is not a redeemer. A dispenser of heavenly gifts is not a redeemer. These titles in no way point to, or allude to, Mary as a redeemer or co-redeemer.

Furthermore, petitioning Mary for something does not guarantee it will be given because "Jesus can't say no to his Mother." That is a common joke that is made, mainly by Catholics, but is not taken seriously.

I think the issue that keeps revealing itself in these posts is the misconception that Mary is worshiped and put on the same level as Christ. My quotes, taken directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, show that this is not taught or held by the Catholic Church. Now I know, that GT will say I am just denying truth, yet my evidence is from the single book which holds all the teachings and positions of the Church.

Also, the theological positions and dogmas held by the Catholic Church have been unchanging since its inception. And if you need historical proof of Marian devotion, look at the writings of Tertullian, Justin Martyr, etc.

You are right about that you are in denial.

The Catholic denomination has changed their beliefs. That is what the fight with Catholics among themselves is about, the second vatican.

The name second vatican alone proves you are not speaking the truth about a never changing Catholic religion. The second vatican gave changes to what some of it's other popes have said...lol...so much for that.

By the way, Catholics do worship Mary. Do you know about praying to Mary and asking her to pray for you?

 

[jsanford108]

The changes of Vatican 2 were with practices. Not teachings or dogmas.

What does "pray" mean?

 

[jsanford108]

And yes I do know about praying to Mary and asking her to pray for you.

 

[God's Truth]

And yes I do know about praying to Mary and asking her to pray for you.

If you have Jesus Christ living in your heart then what are you doing praying to Mary?