Forget "reinterpreting" it, how am I interpreting what Paul said when I'm saying it means EXACTLY what it says, nothing more nothing less?
The only one here interpreting anything is you, Barb, because Paul says something completely contrary to what James says, and so your paradigm forces you to pick one or the other and interpret whichever one you did not pick to fit the one you did.
My paradigm allows me to take each verse to mean exactly what they say, no interpretation needed.
James says one is saved by faith AND works.
Paul says one is saved by faith alone.
The two CANNOT, on their face, be saying the same thing.
does not contradict God's word that we are justified by faith and by works.
Once again, you're reading someone else's mail and acting on it as if it were addressed to you.
And because of that, you are forced to read Romans as if Paul thinks one must work as well, even though he says EXPLICITLY that one is NOT saved by works, but by faith alone.
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works. [7] To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Which is not talking about how one obtains salvation. It's talking about God's righteous judgment.
And Jesus agrees with both of them: Matthew 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
Paul says that one is justified by faith. Which is true. James says that one is justified by faith and by works, which is also true. Both are the word of God, which must be true.
The only one here interpreting anything is you, Barb, because Paul says something completely contrary to what James says,
No. James merely gives a complete list. As you can see from Matthew 25, Jesus clearly says that your eternal home depends on your works, as does James and Paul.
Your paradigm forces you to pick one and interpret the other to fit the one you did. But God's word says that one is justified by faith as well as by works.
It's not email; it's a post on a message board. So open to comment. You don't want to accept what God says in Matthew 25 or in James 2, and because of that, you are forced to read Romans as if Paul thinks that works don't justify you, even though he says explicitly:
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works. [7] To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
And what is it, exactly, that you think that I have added to scripture?
The man-made doctrine of "sola fide." As you see, God explicitly rejects it. My position is that all these verses mean exactly what they say, no addition of "alone" needed.
Paul says that one is justified by faith. Which is true. James says that one is justified by faith and by works, which is also true. Both are the word of God, which must be true.
Rom 4:4-5 KJV Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” - Romans 4:5-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:5-8&version=NKJV
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” - Romans 4:5-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:5-8&version=NKJV
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” - Romans 4:5-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:5-8&version=NKJV
Most of the New Testament is made up of letters called Epistles.
You're reading the letters addressed to the Hebrews, the twelve tribes scattered abroad, rather than the letters addressed to the Body of Christ.
Stop reading other people's mail as if it's addressed to you.
You don't want to accept what God says in Matthew 25 or in James 2, and because of that, you are forced to read Romans as if Paul thinks that works don't justify you, even though he says explicitly:
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works. [7] To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” - Romans 4:5-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:5-8&version=NKJV
I assure you that Paul did not.
Paul says faith alone.
James says faith plus works.
The man-made doctrine of "sola fide." As you see, God explicitly rejects it.
No, your position is not, Barbarian. But your paradigm won't allow you to see that, and you'll probably come back just parroting what I'm telling you, and you'll continue using the "it doesn't say "alone" shtick (though I'd like you to explain what else there could be besides faith or works that he could be talking about which grammatically allows for "alone" to be used) because that's how childish you are, and because you don't have any other way to explain the differences between what Paul said and what Peter, James, John, and Jesus said.
Barbarian, Paul says faith, no works, and James says works plus faith. So either one of them is wrong or meant something other than what he said, or they both meant exactly what they said, because they were speaking to different audiences. There are no other possibilities..
You keep quoting Jesus as if that's the be-all end-all to doctrinal dispute, yet Jesus Himself stated explicitly that He was only sent to the House of Israel, And Paul and Peter had plenty of disputes over doctrine, as recorded in the Bible, and guess what? Peter usually submitted to Paul, even though Peter was taught directly by Jesus for three years!
Jesus' ministry was to the House of Israel, which means that either you need to figure out what tribe you're part of, or you need to accept that what He, Peter, James, John, and the author of Hebrews said was not addressed to you.
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works. [7] To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Turns out, Paul doesn't say "no works." In fact, he says that God will grant eternal life to us according to our works.
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works. [7] To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
No, James is speaking to a different audience than Paul.
See above. Paul, like James and Jesus, says that one's eternal life depends on works. Nowhere does Paul say "no works." As you see, he says your eternal life depends on your works.
It's really not a problem for a Christian. Faith and works are two sides of the same coin.
[ QUOTE =JudgeRightly ;5361185 ]Twisting what others say on here is dishonest, Barb.['quote]
I told you what you said.
Well, let's take a look...
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works. [7] To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Turns out, Paul doesn't say "no works." In fact, he says that God will grant eternal life to us according to our works.
Which is God's word.
No, that's not what Paul says...
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works. [7] To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
The audience is us. That's what scripture is for. For us to read, and learn.
So when Paul says we gain eternal life according to our works, he is completely in accord with what God says in James 2.
Israel is one nation. Jesus says people of all nations will be so judged.
See above. Paul, like James and Jesus, says that one's eternal life depends on works. Nowhere does Paul say "no works." As you see, he says your eternal life depends on your works.
It's really not a problem for a Christian. Faith and works are two sides of the same coin.
I have a healthy mind, and the thread is still there for all to read if anyone needs to check to see what I wrote.
Well, let's take a look...
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works. [7] To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works. [7] To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Read the passage from Romans 2 again more carefully.
Spoiler
Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.For there is no partiality with God. - Romans 2:1-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans2:1-11&version=NKJV
Romans 2, when taken at face value, seems to contradict Paul's ENTIRE MINISTRY!
Why?
He is not talking to those in the Body of Christ, and he is not speaking of those who have rejected the gospel of grace.
Paul's audience is those who have never heard the gospel, in other words, those who live isolated from God's word.
In this chapter, Paul is not preaching Lordship Salvation. He's speaking of the man without law who has never heard of Moses or Jesus, who only have the law written on their hearts.
Paul's entire ministry goes against Romans 2. The ONLY explanation, aside from Peter sneaking in and writing the chapter, is that Paul is NOT speaking to the Body of Christ.
Paul teaches the Gospel of Grace, not grace plus works. Just in chapter 3, the very next chapter, Paul states that the law condemns ANYONE who is under the law, no matter how well they do, they are condemned.
Keep reading, because now that it's a possibility in your mind, even if you reject it, my position that Paul is not speaking to those in the Body of Christ, but instead those in "deepest darkest Africa," is substantiated:
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them )in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. - Romans 2:12-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans2:12-16&version=NKJV
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).
Let us look at this passage:
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (Jas.2:17).
What about the "faith" which is alone when believing the "word of truth" which results in the new birth? That "faith" is not dead because it results in salvation.
James is speaking about what one person can know about another person's faith:
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:17).
The Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith apart from works, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken directly to them:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works. [7] To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
The following translation makes the meaning more clear:
"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" (Ro.2:6; KJV).
If a person "continues" in well doing then he will earn for himself eternal life. But if he does not continue in well doing and sins then he is totally dependent on God's "grace" if he is going to be saved.
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident" (Gal.3:10-11).
If you think that your own "works" contributes to your salvation then you haven't believe the "gospel of the grace of God," the gospel which saves.
Are you willing to bet your eternal destiny on the ideas invented by men that it takes more than "faith" to be saved, the same men who flat out deny that people are saved by grace through faith apart from works?
Jesus, James, and Paul all say that your eternal home depends on your works. You can believe them, or you can try to find a loophole in scripture. It won't matter. Your choice.
If you think that your own "works" contributes to your salvation
Let's see what God says...
James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
God's word explicitly denies your new doctrine of "faith only." Just that simple. Don't gamble away your salvation, looking for a loophole in scripture. He's won't be buying any excuses.
If you don't accept that one is justified by works and not by faith only, then you don't believe the "gospel of the grace of God," the gospel which saves.
Are you willing to bet your eternal destiny on the ideas invented by men that "faith only" will save you, the same men who flat out deny what God tells you in Matthew 25?
James' audience is the Diaspora, the twelve tribes scattered abroad, which are Jews.
His audience DOES NOT INCLUDE GENTILES.
Of course it is, but that does not inherently make us the audience of the letters.
He's not talking to us. Let me clarify.
Read the passage from Romans 2 again more carefully.
Spoiler
Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.For there is no partiality with God. - Romans 2:1-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans2:1-11&version=NKJV
Romans 2, when taken at face value, seems to contradict Paul's ENTIRE MINISTRY!
Why?
He is not talking to those in the Body of Christ, and he is not speaking of those who have rejected the gospel of grace.
Paul's audience is those who have never heard the gospel, in other words, those who live isolated from God's word.
In this chapter, Paul is not preaching Lordship Salvation. He's speaking of the man without law who has never heard of Moses or Jesus, who only have the law written on their hearts.
The "unsolicited man."
Gentiles, are not part of Israel, by definition.
Not in dispute.
Incorrect.
See above.
See above.
Nope.
Romans 2 is talking to the Jews and those who have never heard any gospel
Paul's entire ministry goes against Romans 2. The ONLY explanation, aside from Peter sneaking in and writing the chapter, is that Paul is NOT speaking to the Body of Christ.
Paul teaches the Gospel of Grace, not grace plus works. Just in chapter 3, the very next chapter, Paul states that the law condemns ANYONE who is under the law, no matter how well they do, they are condemned.
Keep reading, because now that it's a possibility in your mind, even if you reject it, my position that Paul is not speaking to those in the Body of Christ, but instead those in "deepest darkest Africa," is substantiated:
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them )in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. - Romans 2:12-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans2:12-16&version=NKJV
Jesus, James, and Paul all say that your eternal home depends on your works. You can believe them, or you can try to find a loophole in scripture. It won't matter. Your choice.
Let's see what God says...
James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
God's word explicitly denies your new doctrine of "faith only." Just that simple. Don't gamble away your salvation, looking for a loophole in scripture. He's won't be buying any excuses.
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).
Let us look at this passage:
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (Jas.2:17).
What about the "faith" which is alone when believing the "word of truth" which results in the new birth? That "faith" is not dead because it results in salvation.
James is speaking about what one person can know about another person's faith:
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:17).
All saved people are saved by faith alone apart from works, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
Again, what the Lord Jesus said here is either true or it is false. There is no in between. Your ideas deny the words of the Savior, proving that you really have not yet believed the gospel which saves, the gospel of the grace of God.
You have been tricked into putting more faith in what some people say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Savior Himself says.
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).
Let us look at this passage:
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (Jas.2:17).
What about the "faith" which is alone when believing the "word of truth" which results in the new birth? That "faith" is not dead because it results in salvation.
James is speaking about what one person can know about another person's faith:
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:17).
The Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith apart from works, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken directly to them:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
