ECT Resurrection of the 'Grace is unconditional not universal' thread

[Sonnet]

This thread recapitulates those posts that are yet without a response regarding the now closed thread Grace is unconditional not universal:

The forgiving and saving grace of God comes to sinners unconditionally through faith; not by works.

Repentance is not required to be forgiven (justified) by God; rather repentance is evidence the sinner has been saved by God's power and grace, through gifted faith, alone.

All empirical and scriptural knowledge, denies any hope of universal forgiveness (atonement). Such is simply wishful thinking, that only perverts the Truth.

Nick's earlier thread OP includes the quote of Romans 5:18 to suggest that the death of Jesus Christ universally paid for "all" sins, but Romans 5:19 quantifies Paul's gospel message as pertaining only to "many."

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Note: In acknowledgement of the rules regarding the 'Exclusively Christian Theology' forum, I declare that I am not a believer.


The following posts have not had a response...

 

[Sonnet]

Nick's earlier thread OP includes the quote of Romans 5:18 to suggest that the death of Jesus Christ universally paid for "all" sins, but Romans 5:19 quantifies Paul's gospel message as pertaining only to "many."

In which case the first occurrence of 'many' in verse 19 would deny the universality of original sin.

Is this what you believe?

 

[Sonnet]

God commands all sinners that they must believe the Gospel to live, but no man will nor can believe, apart from being indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God. I Corinthians 2:13-14

Paul clearly contrasts the proclaiming of the Gospel when he first came to the Corinthians (without eloquence or human wisdom) and such as you cite which is a message of wisdom for the mature - so your point fails.

Believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, is the work of God. John 6:29

Since Jesus tells the crowd not to work for food that spoils (they having followed Jesus so that they might have their fill again) but to work for food that endures...that they should 'feed' on Him - to then suggest, as you do, that such is the work of God would then make Jesus woefully disingenuous.

Many hear the Gospel proclaimed but do not believe, because they have not been given new hearts nor ears to hear.

One must first be born again and changed by the Holy Spirit, before he can respond to the Gospel message.
This is the work of Triune God: John 3:3-8; 5:21

No order given in John 3 and in John 5:31 Jesus foretells the raising of Lazarus..the context being physical healing (vv. 1-11).

Not the work or choice of man . . .

Godly Regeneration precedes faith.

Rather, belief through drawing John 12:32.

 

[Sonnet]

All men are sinners, all the sons of Adam are totally depraved, all men have been legally imputed with Adam's sin and all are sentenced to death.

You seem to be avoiding responding to this very issue (it being part of the OP):

Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

You define 'many' as not all:

Nick's earlier thread OP includes the quote of Romans 5:18 to suggest that the death of Jesus Christ universally paid for "all" sins, but Romans 5:19 quantifies Paul's gospel message as pertaining only to "many."

So you think that not all were made sinners even though you say that, 'All men are sinners'?

 

[Sonnet]

"The Reformed deny that the work of Christ had equal reference to all mankind. There are differentiations within the love of God: God's highest love reserved for His elect (Ephesians 1:4),

The spiritual blessing of v.3 are for those in Him. So believers will be holy, blameless and adopted to sonship - redeemed, forgiven their sins, given to know mysteries and made heirs.

His sheep (John 10:15),

John 10 is a parable about good and bad shepherds. Jesus tells the Pharisees they are bad shepherds. There is nothing there that speaks of the sheep as the elect as you would define it.

His people (Matthew 1:21)

Jesus came to the Jews - his people.

and His children given to the Son (John 17;

That's vague.

Hebrews 2:13).

?

Join to this truth, the fact that God hardened Pharoah's heart (Romans 9),

All men have hard hearts.

refrained from choosing Judas (John 13:18),

Nothing there about being excluded from God's salvific provision.

Luke 22:20-21.

and allowed His holy hatred to rest upon Esau (Romans 9),

You mean God 'liked less' (Luke 14:26). Jacob, not Esau, was chosen to be the one through whom Jesus would come...so what is your point?

That you believe God hated Esau in the way you describe is astonishing and tragic.

and we are left with the biblical truth of Limited Atonement."

George C. Miladin

He twisted scripture upon scripture and forced an unwarranted extrapolation.

 

[Sonnet]

An example of Jesus' love even for those that stoned him:

John 10:31-38
Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

Such men as these Jesus describes as not his sheep - and yet he still persists with them...to believe him through the works.

Only if belief is possible could Jesus enjoin them to do so.

 

[Sonnet]

and allowed His holy hatred to rest upon Esau (Romans 9), and we are left with the biblical truth of Limited Atonement."

George C. Miladin

Why did God reprobate Esau (your view, not mine) and not you?

 

[Sonnet]

This contradicts all your "universal" views, does it not?

I believe that that Jesus' inclusion/exclusion in Mark 4 may be a direct response to what had previously occurred:

Mark 3:22-29
And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

 

[Sonnet]

No response.

 

[intojoy]

I believe that that Jesus' inclusion/exclusion in Mark 4 may be a direct response to what had previously occurred:

Mark 3:22-29
And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

The unpardonable sin was not an individual's sin that could be committed by believers today.

It is a national sin committed by Israel which for the generation was nationally unforgivable. Think about Kadesh Barnea. That generation was guilty of committing a national sin and that generation had to endure the consequences of dying in the wilderness. However, as individuals they could be forgiven. Paul was one who would have been guilty of the unpardonable sin as he was anti Yeshua and a member of the Pharisees. Yet as an individual he was forgiven thus it wasn't unpardonable on an individual basis.


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[Sonnet]

The unpardonable sin was not an individual's sin that could be committed by believers today.

It is a national sin committed by Israel which for the generation was nationally unforgivable. Think about Kadesh Barnea. That generation was guilty of committing a national sin and that generation had to endure the consequences of dying in the wilderness. However, as individuals they could be forgiven. Paul was one who would have been guilty of the unpardonable sin as he was anti Yeshua and a member of the Pharisees. Yet as an individual he was forgiven thus it wasn't unpardonable on an individual basis.


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And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

[intojoy]

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Note how Yeshua ends this: "this generation "

“The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation.”
**Matthew‬ *12:41-42, 44-45‬ *ASV‬‬
http://bible.com/12/mat.12.41-42,44-45.asv



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[intojoy]

What you are missing:
According to first century Pharisaic Judaism there were certain miracles only Messiah will be able to perform when He comes.
(1) heal a man born blind (2) cast out a demon from one whom the demon made mute

The man was "brought to Him"

Once Yeshua casts out that demon that the people were taught from their youth up only the Messiah could cast out they immediately ask the question "is not this the Messiah?"

Rather than answer for themselves they turn to the Jewish leaders who explain it away by saying Yeshua did this by the power of Satan.

The unpardonable sin in the only context where it is found in the bible is:

The national rejection of the Messiaship of Jesus by that generation of Israel while Yeshua was present on the basis of demon possession.


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[Sonnet]

What you are missing:
According to first century Pharisaic Judaism there were certain miracles only Messiah will be able to perform when He comes.
(1) heal a man born blind (2) cast out a demon from one whom the demon made mute

The man was "brought to Him"

Once Yeshua casts out that demon that the people were taught from their youth up only the Messiah could cast out they immediately ask the question "is not this the Messiah?"

Rather than answer for themselves they turn to the Jewish leaders who explain it away by saying Yeshua did this by the power of Satan.

The unpardonable sin in the only context where it is found in the bible is:

The national rejection of the Messiaship of Jesus by that generation of Israel while Yeshua was present on the basis of demon possession.


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But the focus of my point is Dort's error:

Who teach that it was not on the basis of his just will alone that God decided to leave anyone in the fall of Adam and in the common state of sin and condemnation or to pass anyone by in the imparting of grace necessary for faith and conversion....“To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given” (Matt. 13:11).

This would make Judas among the elect - so Matthew 13:11 is NOT teaching such election / reprobation. Rather, it would seem, it teaches reprobation on those who blaspheme the HS.

 

[Sonnet]

What you are missing:
According to first century Pharisaic Judaism there were certain miracles only Messiah will be able to perform when He comes.
(1) heal a man born blind (2) cast out a demon from one whom the demon made mute

The man was "brought to Him"

Once Yeshua casts out that demon that the people were taught from their youth up only the Messiah could cast out they immediately ask the question "is not this the Messiah?"

Rather than answer for themselves they turn to the Jewish leaders who explain it away by saying Yeshua did this by the power of Satan.

The unpardonable sin in the only context where it is found in the bible is:

The national rejection of the Messiaship of Jesus by that generation of Israel while Yeshua was present on the basis of demon possession.


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Interesting - can you substantiate this?

 

[intojoy]

But the focus of my point is Dort's error:

Who teach that it was not on the basis of his just will alone that God decided to leave anyone in the fall of Adam and in the common state of sin and condemnation or to pass anyone by in the imparting of grace necessary for faith and conversion....“To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given” (Matt. 13:11).

This would make Judas among the elect - so Matthew 13:11 is NOT teaching such election / reprobation. Rather, it would seem, it teaches reprobation on those who blaspheme the HS.

Judas never believed according to Yeshua at the last Seder


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[intojoy]

Interesting - can you substantiate this?

I'd be happy to email you the manuscript if you pm me an email


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[Sonnet]

Judas never believed according to Yeshua at the last Seder


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I didn't say he did believe.

Did Jesus tell the Twelve that they were given knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven?

 

[Sonnet]

The claims of the 'Grace is unconditional but not universal' thread remain unsubstantiated.

 

[Sonnet]

I'd be happy to email you the manuscript if you pm me an email


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Did you get my PM?