Theology Club: Repent and be Baptized...for the Remission of Sins

[Bright Raven]

My question to you is if submitting to the rite of water baptism at Acts 2:38 was necessary for salvation?

No.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No.

Then we agree!

 

[Danoh]

Lol, its true - "two wrongs don't make a right."

 

[glorydaz]

Those from the Neo-MAD camp teach that the rite of water baptism mentioned at Acts 2:38 was necessary for salvation for the Jews who lived under the law.

I have always said that submitting to the rite of water baptism saved no one.

What do you think?

See, you keep saying they lived under the law but then claim they didn't need to keep law. If you live under the laws of this land, you have to obey the laws. If you don't live under the laws of this land, then you are probably the President or a Clinton and can get away with anything.

And saved them from what? The penalties of the law? You're very vague, Jerry. I think you do that so people will be so confused you can look smarter in comparison. Quite clever of you, actually. :chuckle:

 

[way 2 go]

So are you saying that Abraham was justified before God apart from works but at the same time he couldn't be justified before God unless he did works?

Is that your argument?

not at the same time Jerry

Abram moved from a covenant of grace
to
Abraham with a covenant of works

Jerry do you have an impairment we should be aware of?

 

[glorydaz]

not at the same time Jerry

Abram moved from a covenant of grace
to
Abraham with a covenant of works

Jerry do you have an impairment we should be aware of?

:rotfl:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

See, you keep saying they lived under the law but then claim they didn't need to keep law.

I said that keeping the law had nothing to do with their salvation. After all, they were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Are you not aware that if takes works then it cannot be said to be of grace?:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

Even though you have been shown Romans 4:16 numerous times you continue to insist that those who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works!

Not only that, but the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law that if they just "believe" then they will be saved:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

However, you cannot seem to understand the Lord Jesus' simple words there because you continue to insist that those Jews could not be saved unless they believed and did works.

As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. I have lead you to the truth about how the Jews who lived under the law were saved but I cannot make you believe that truth.

Your unbelief belongs to you and to no one else.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Abram moved from a covenant of grace
to
Abraham with a covenant of works

James was never saying that Abraham was justified by works before God.

In fact, in the prior chapter James tells us exactly how a person is born of God and therefore saved:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).

That certainly eliminates the idea that Abraham was under a covenant of works.

In chapter two James was speaking about what a man can know about another man's faith:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my work" (Jas.2:18).​

As far as other men are concerned if a man says that he has faith but has no works to show to others then as far as those other men are concerned his faith does not realy exist so it can be described as being dead.

I am curious to hear what interpretation of the meaning you would put on James 1:18.

 

[glorydaz]

However, you cannot seem to understand the Lord Jesus' simple words there because you continue to insist that those Jews could not be saved unless they believed and did works.

As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. I have lead you to the truth about how the Jews who lived under the law were saved but I cannot make you believe that truth.

Your unbelief belongs to you and to no one else.

Actually, Jerry, I haven't insisted any such thing. I'm certainly leaning in that direction thanks to your feeble attempts at proving otherwise. If someone lives under the law, then they are under the law no matter what you say.

You have claimed I insist on many things but you haven't even begun to hear what I've said. You assume I have said everything you claim I've said, but you still don't listen to what I've said. Not once have you correctly related my beliefs....even those things I have said I didn't know, you have twisted around to say I'm claiming something I haven't. It's like trying to communicate with someone from a foreign country who thinks he understands how to speak the language. I think I need another break from your pig headedness. Yeah.....that's probably just exactly what I need. :surf:

 

[patrick jane]

I said that keeping the law had nothing to do with their salvation. After all, they were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Are you not aware that if takes works then it cannot be said to be of grace?:

"Now to him that worketh is the retard not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

Even though you have been shown Romans 4:16 numerous times you continue to insist that those who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works!

Not only that, but the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law that if they just "believe" then they will be saved:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

However, you cannot seem to understand the Lord Jesus' simple words there because you continue to insist that those Jews could not be saved unless they believed and did works.

As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. I have lead you to the truth about how the Jews who lived under the law were saved but I cannot make you believe that truth.

Your unbelief belongs to you and to no one else.

what if one says that once you believed Jesus when He spoke or Paul's gospel you are no longer under the law/circumcision ?

there it is again - belief or unbelief

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If someone lives under the law, then they are under the law no matter what you say.

Not for salvation or one's righteousness before God. I have shown you this verse before and evidently it means nothing to you:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).​

Do you think that the Jews who believed and lived under the law had to establish their own righteousness by law keeping?

You have claimed I insist on many things but you haven't even begun to hear what I've said.

Now you have a chance to make your ideas about this subject known. Just answer that question.

You assume I have said everything you claim I've said, but you still don't listen to what I've said. Not once have you correctly related my beliefs....

Once again I will give you a chance to express your beliefs on the matter we are discussing by answering a simple question about what the Lord Jesus said here to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Do you affirm that the Lord Jesus told those Jews that if they believed then they would be saved?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

what if one says that once you believed Jesus when He spoke or Paul's gospel you are no longer under the law/circumcision ?

there it is again - belief or unbelief

Once a person believes then he is no longer under the law for righteousness:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).​

Do you agree with that?

 

[way 2 go]

James was never saying that Abraham was justified by works before God.

In fact, in the prior chapter James tells us exactly how a person is born of God and therefore saved:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).

That certainly eliminates the idea that Abraham was under a covenant of works.

nice quote of an irrelevant verse

Abraham was under of a covenant of works

can you read the following verses and see circumcision is a
necessary work

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

In chapter two James was speaking about what a man can know about another man's faith:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my work" (Jas.2:18).​

As far as other men are concerned if a man says that he has faith but has no works to show to others then as far as those other men are concerned his faith does not realy exist so it can be described as being dead.

I am curious to hear what interpretation of the meaning you would put on James 1:18.

your always wrong
why is that ?

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

which agrees with what Jesus taught him
Mat 6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,
Mat 6:15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

[way 2 go]

Actually, Jerry, I haven't insisted any such thing. I'm certainly leaning in that direction thanks to your feeble attempts at proving otherwise. If someone lives under the law, then they are under the law no matter what you say.

You have claimed I insist on many things but you haven't even begun to hear what I've said. You assume I have said everything you claim I've said, but you still don't listen to what I've said. Not once have you correctly related my beliefs....even those things I have said I didn't know, you have twisted around to say I'm claiming something I haven't. It's like trying to communicate with someone from a foreign country who thinks he understands how to speak the language. I think I need another break from your pig headedness. Yeah.....that's probably just exactly what I need. :surf:

nothing we say to Jerry gets through his cult like filter

and his responses never have anything to do with
what we have written , they are like canned responses
maybe Jerry is a robot. :think:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

can you read the following verses and see circumcision is a
necessary work

Not necessary for salvation. The Lord Jesus told those of the circumcision that if they believed then they were saved:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

your always wrong
why is that ?

You think that I am always wrong but that is because you refuse to believe what the Lord Jesus said.

Circumcision was a part of the law and here is what Paul says about the law and its relationship to those who believe:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).​

You still think that a Jew had to establish his own righteousness by keeping the law and you show the same ignorance about these things as these people who Paul speaks about here:

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" (Ro.10:3).​

Here Paul speaks about that righteousness which is of God and comes to all who believe:

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faithfulness of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil.3:9).​

 

[way 2 go]

Not necessary for salvation. The Lord Jesus told those of the circumcision that if they believed then they were saved:

you know Jesus was not born yet when these words were given right

Gen 17:14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

why do you keep backdating changes to how people were saved

 

[Jerry Shugart]

you know Jesus was not born yet when these words were given right

Did you forget the subject of this thread which is the rite of water baptism of Acts 2:38? You do know that the Lord Jesus had said the following words to the Jews who lived under the law prior to that baptism, don't you?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Why should anyone believe that those Jews had to submit to the rite of baptism to be saved since the Savior Himselfsaid that if they "believed" they were saved?

why do you keep backdating changes to how people were saved

Here is how Paul says that David was saved and anyone in their right mind can understand that being circumcised played no part in his salvation:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).​

 

[way 2 go]

Did you forget the subject of this thread which is the rite of water baptism of Acts 2:38? You do know that the Lord Jesus had said the following words to the Jews who lived under the law prior to that baptism, don't you?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Why should anyone believe that those Jews had to submit to the rite of baptism to be saved since the Savior Himselfsaid that if they "believed" they were saved?

Jews inherited salvation up until Jesus started his ministry

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Here is how Paul says that David was saved and anyone in their right mind can understand that being circumcised played no part in his salvation:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).​

David experienced grace for his adultery and murder
2Sa_12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.


Gen 17:14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

David was not cut off from his people

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jews inherited salvation up until Jesus started his ministry

You are clueless! And of course I never expected you to believe what the Lord Jesus said at John 5:24. All you are doing is trying to prove what He said there is in error.

You refuse to believe what He said there because if you did believe it then you would have to swallow your pride and admit that the Jews only had to believe to be saved:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

It is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with someone who will just deny the words of the Lord Jesus there.

 

[way 2 go]

You are clueless! And of course I never expected you to believe what the Lord Jesus said at John 5:24. All you are doing is trying to prove what He said there is in error.

how your using it is in error

kinda like people misusing

Psa 82:6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;

It is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with someone who will just deny the words of the Lord Jesus there.

Gen 17:14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."