Real Science Friday: Now Soft Tissue from a Mosasaur!

One Eyed Jack

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A blowhole is just nostrils, which in some whales are a single hole, but others still have two nostrils.

Be that as it may, a whale's blowhole is always on the top or the back of the head.

They're a little farther forward on the nose in the fossils than a modern whale's.

Forward enough to be able to breathe throught it's mouth, I'll bet. Whales can't do that. In any case, no 'modern whales' have nostrils in their face. Not a single one.

A manatee has an entirely different skeletal structure compared to a whale's. Dorudon and Basilosaurus share a huge number of characteristics with whales and no other organisms.

They don't share a blowhole, which as far as I'm concerned is a defining characteristic of whales. And they had legs -- including feet and toes. That's a far cry from an extra pair of flippers on a mutant dolphin.
 
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Stripe

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This is how Dr. John Baumgardner responds to critiques.
So? :idunno:

Well, this coming from someone who has demonstrated a serious deficiency in understanding fundamental physics causes me to not see much value in arguing this with you.
:rotfl: You're not even willing to hear the explanation that might account for a 50,000 year discrepancy and you're going to post screeds of information to justify a hundred million year discrepancy?

This'll be good. :chuckle:

Is your explanation going to continue to feature so heavily the fact that one side was acting "unchristian"?

Who knows, perhaps this is how you respond to critiques. In later posts, when you realise your opponent is not the patsy you hope he is, you might lessen your rhetoric, but still get in a slap or two.

WHO did WHAT?
:squint: THEY did THIS!
The show participants tried to make the point that it would require a large amount of contamination. But the paper itself says nothing about how carefully sample prep was done, and specifically mentions the possibility of what could be major contamination.
 

The Barbarian

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The fact that the cetacean nose moved, in the course of evolution, from the tip of the rostrum up to the vertex of the head, is among the most perfect of adaptations to aquatic life. In this and many other special adaptations of their morphology and physiology, cetaceans surpass most primarily aquatic animals even though they themselves have developed from land mammals that breathe with lungs, and have only secondarily conquered the aquatic environment. To a certain extent, cetaceans can be considered to be the most successful group of aquatic animals of all time.

Conclusive paleontological evidence shows the way in which the nasal openings were moved in the course of phylogeny (see Kellogg 1928; Slijper 1962; Gaskin 1976; Oelschlager 1978, 1987, 1990; Moore 1981). That this evolutionary process is repeated in a way during ontogeny became obvious through external observations on embryos and fetuses (Kukenthal 1893). At the earliest embryonic stages the nasal openings are still situated at the rostra tip like those of land mammals; they are gradually shifted more and more towards the vertex of the head at the older stages. At the same time, a long rost rum with narrow jaws develops. Until recently, practically nothing was known about the morphogenetic processes concealed in this metamorphosis, about what cranial structures take part in it, and about the exact way in which the cetacean skull becomes transformed during embryogeny.

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/03/whale-evolution.html

Surprise.
 

DavisBJ

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You're not even willing to hear the explanation that might account for a 50,000 year discrepancy and you're going to post screeds of information to justify a hundred million year discrepancy?
I am perfectly willing to hear such an explanation, as long as it does not require the capricious revamping of physical law a few thousand years ago. Can you provide such an explanation?
Is your explanation going to continue to feature so heavily the fact that one side was acting "unchristian"?
I didn’t specify which side was honoring Christian norms, so if you think either Kirk’s or John’s own method of presentation is more correct, then that is your call.
THEY did THIS!
Is “They” referring to the show participants, or to the authors of the paper that mentioned possible contamination?
 

Stripe

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I am perfectly willing to hear such an explanation, as long as it does not require the capricious revamping of physical law a few thousand years ago. Can you provide such an explanation?
I have a few ideas. :)

I didn’t specify which side was honoring Christian norms, so if you think either Kirk’s or John’s own method of presentation is more correct, then that is your call.
:rotfl:

Nice equivocation.

Is “They” referring to the show participants, or to the authors of the paper that mentioned possible contamination?
Well, since you're not responding to everything I ask, I'm just gonna ignore this one. :)
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Forward enough to be able to breathe throught it's mouth, I'll bet. Whales can't do that. In any case, no 'modern whales' have nostrils in their face. Not a single one.
Except when they're embryos . . . see what Barbarian said.

They don't share a blowhole, which as far as I'm concerned is a defining characteristic of whales. And they had legs -- including feet and toes. That's a far cry from an extra pair of flippers on a mutant dolphin.
Using single characteristics to define a group of organisms is stupid. That's not how modern systematics is done because scientists have long realized that using a single ( or two) characteristics makes a classification system totally arbitrary, as yours is.

A blowhole on the top of the head doesn't define a whale any more than retractile claws define a cat. If they did cheetahs would not be considered cats. Using standard systematics you can tell the difference between a legless lizard and a snake.

Basilosaurus and Dorudon have numerous characteristics in common with whales, you're defining them purely by exception because they have characteristics you don't like, because they imply evolution.
 

DavisBJ

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I'm waiting for the next installment from your side. I enjoyed the last one. You seem to know your stuff and present it pretty well. :up:
I’ll try to get to it soon. But you will have to forgive me if I harbor the suspicion that you haven’t got any idea of how to rationally accommodate the physics involved in C-14 dating with YEC timelines.
 

Stripe

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I’ll try to get to it soon. But you will have to forgive me if I harbor the suspicion that you haven’t got any idea of how to rationally accommodate the physics involved in C-14 dating with YEC timelines.
OK. :)
 

DavisBJ

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Measuring C-14​

It was in the late 1940s that the idea of using C-14 as a type of clock measuring time since death was first demonstrated. For a few decades after the late 1940s, the amount of C-14 was measured by extracting the carbon from a sample, carefully weighing it, and then essentially plopping a Geiger counter by it and measuring the rate C-14 atoms were decaying. From knowing the sample weight it was easy to compute how many total carbon atoms you had. The rate of decay of the C-14 atoms could be used to indicate about how many C-14 atoms were left in the sample, and comparing the ratio of C-14 to regular carbon allows one to compute how much of the C-14 has decayed.

There are details, such as the possibility that 20,000 years ago there might have been more (or less) C-14 in the atmosphere than we see today, but a big part of the C-14 process is knowing how to try to minimize such variables. Relying on measuring the C-14 decay rate meant the larger the sample, the better. But by their nature, good samples are often small. If the sample was quite old, so most of the C-14 had already decayed, then the clicks on the Geiger counter were so far apart that one needed a deck of cards so they could play a few hands of poker while waiting for the next click.

A huge improvement in the process come when it was suggested (in the 1970s) that a process called accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS) be used. Conceptually this works by taking a very small sample and ionizing the atoms one by one (usually by stripping off an electron). The ionized atoms, now being electrically charged due to their loss of one electron, can be accelerated by an electric field, almost like a linear accelerator used in the old atom-smashers. Give the ionized atoms a high speed, and then when they enter a magnetic field they will be deflected to the side. Heavier atoms such as C-14 will not curve as sharply as their C-12 cousins. That means a couple of “buckets” can be placed to catch the ions, with the C-12 ions plopping into one bucket, and the C-14 plopping into the next one down the line. Count the number of incoming atoms to each bucket, and you have your C-14 to normal carbon ratio. Note this process is not actually observing the C-14 decays, but relies on the difference in atomic weights between the two types of carbon atoms.

This proved to be ideal because accurate measurements only require small samples, and there is no waiting for decays.

(A side note that bothers me about this process is the exquisite accuracy that seems to be required. In our atmosphere only about one out of every trillion carbon atoms is a C-14 atom. That means in the AMS apparatus one C-14 atom will show up for every trillion normal C atoms. If a single errant C atom plops in the wrong bucket out of every trillion, then that would introduce a huge error in C-14 dating. But the experts say it is an extremely reliable system, and I always accept anything scientists tell me without question (cough cough).)

In C-14 measurements, C-14 values are often reported in units of “pMC” (or sometimes PMC or pmc), meaning “percent Modern Carbon”. This is really just a reference value based on how much C-14 was in the atmosphere a few years ago (before atmospheric atomic tests screwed up the concentrations).

When bumps are mountains​

Refer to the half-life chart (here). Think about what it would mean if, for some reason, the measured C-14 were in error by a little bit. For example, assume the measured value is at the 50% Original Carbon-14 Remaining line. That would indicate a date of 5700 years. If that percent was off by say, 2%, so the value should be at the 48% level, that would make the corresponding error in date off by maybe a few hundred years. But now do that same thing near the right edge of the chart. Assume the measured Percent Remaining was so low that it intersected the line way over at the 5 half-life point. Now that same error of 2 percent in the Percent Remaining drops the true age way over to 8 or 9 half-lives – a huge error.

If you are dating something fairly recent then small errors in the measured Percent may not be significant – say the date should be early Roman era, but you measure mid-Roman era. That same Percent error 20,000 years ago may move your sample (incorrectly) clear out of the ice age where it belongs. That means if you only need the accuracy to find about when something was recently alive, you may tell the testing lab to minimize costs and just run a quick-and-dirty test. But if you suspect that thing is really old, you ask for (the more expensive) highly controlled test.

All C-14 dating tests have “noise” in them. Noise is just the accumulated error that cannot be avoided. The problem is how to know when a small variation is due to noise, and when it is a small valid C-14 measurement due to some previously unrecognized source of C-14. This is the crux of where John Baumgardner and Bertsche part ways. John thinks there is a consistent level of signal in C-14 tests on coal and oil that is not noise, but valid C-14. Bertsche says no.

In a following post I will look at specifically where they differ on this issue.
 

One Eyed Jack

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Except when they're embryos . . . see what Barbarian said.

How much of a face does a whale embryo have at that stage? You're going by something that's incomplete. By the time the whale is fully formed, the blowhole is where it's supposed to be.

Besides, recapitulation has been disproven. You and The Barbarian both know that.

Using single characteristics to define a group of organisms is stupid. That's not how modern systematics is done because scientists have long realized that using a single ( or two) characteristics makes a classification system totally arbitrary, as yours is.

A blowhole on the top of the head doesn't define a whale any more than retractile claws define a cat.

All whales have a blowhole on top of their head, Alate_One.

If they did cheetahs would not be considered cats. Using standard systematics you can tell the difference between a legless lizard and a snake.

I can tell because lizards have eyelids and ears -- snakes don't. There are other differences, but those are the two most obvious (unless you pick it up and its tail breaks off).

Basilosaurus and Dorudon have numerous characteristics in common with whales,

So do manatees, dugongs, and sea cows. They also have quite a few differences.

you're defining them purely by exception because they have characteristics you don't like, because they imply evolution.

I don't have a problem with any of their characteristics -- I've not denied a single one, nor do I think they imply evolution in any way.
 
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The Barbarian

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How much of a face does a whale embryo have at that stage?

Take a look at the illustrations. All of it, by then. All that happens is differential growth of the same bones and tissues we have, that relocates the nostrils. I don't know, but I'll be you a chocolate chip cookie that if I can locate data on nostrils in transitional whales, we'll see the same process in different species. Wanna bet?

You're going by something that's incomplete.

The data is complete. You see, blow holes weren't "designed" or poofed into existence. They developed from existing structures by evolution.

By the time the whale is fully formed, the blowhole is where it's supposed to be.

Except for transitional whales, where we see a gradual change from the rostrum to the forehead.

Besides, recapitulation has been disproven. You and The Barbarian both know that.

C'mon. You know what recapitulation is. And this isn't it. A modern whale doesn't become Dorudon or Ambulocetus in utero; it's just constrained by what happened in ancestral species. That's why we see the nostrils first on the rostrum of embryonic whales, and only later do they migrate to the adult position.

Basilosaurus and Dorudon have numerous characteristics in common with whales,
So do manatees, dugongs, and sea cows. They also have quite a few differences.

Scientists can easily show that Basilosaurus and Dorudon are ancestral whales and manatees and dugongs are not. Would you like to learn why?
 

One Eyed Jack

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Take a look at the illustrations. All of it, by then. All that happens is differential growth of the same bones and tissues we have, that relocates the nostrils.

First you say it's fully developed, and in the next breath you say that it develops further and pushes the nostrils back -- what kind of double-talk is this?

I don't know, but I'll be you a chocolate chip cookie that if I can locate data on nostrils in transitional whales, we'll see the same process in different species. Wanna bet?

What are you talking about?

The data is complete.

I'm not talking about the data -- I'm talking about it's head. And I don't believe for a second that any credible scientist would claim that the data on whale evolution is complete.

You see, blow holes weren't "designed" or poofed into existence. They developed from existing structures by evolution.

Ever since the Enlightenment, intellectuals have fancied themselves wiser than God. They're wrong.

Except for transitional whales, where we see a gradual change from the rostrum to the forehead.

All you actually see are different kinds of animals which have nostrils in different places, which isn't much of a surprise because they're different kinds of animals to begin with.


C'mon. You know what recapitulation is. And this isn't it. A modern whale doesn't become Dorudon or Ambulocetus in utero; it's just constrained by what happened in ancestral species.

This is just a rehash of the same old thing. It's probably got gill slits at one point too, right?

Scientists can easily show that Basilosaurus and Dorudon are ancestral whales and manatees and dugongs are not. Would you like to learn why?

I never claimed manatees or dugongs were ancestral whales. And as I understand it, there's still some question as to whether Basilosaurs or Dorudon were ancestral whales, or a side-branch that died out. Of course, I think they were just another kind of aquatic mammal, probably unrelated to anything else save each other.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
How much of a face does a whale embryo have at that stage?
Did you look at the pictures?

You're going by something that's incomplete. By the time the whale is fully formed, the blowhole is where it's supposed to be.
Of course it is.

Besides, recapitulation has been disproven. You and The Barbarian both know that.
Recapitulation is wrong, that is true. Though recapitulation stated that say a mammal actually had goes through, fish, amphibian and reptile stages during development.

The science of evo-devo does show that there are some features that appear in the embryo that were present in past forms as adults but not in the modern form as an adult. That's because much of evolution has to do with timing and extent of gene expression. All vertebrates have the same basic developmental program. And the loss of features often has them appear in the embryo but be shut off later (due to loss of the signals for them to continue).

All whales have a blowhole on top of their head, Alate_One.
Living whales. But if you found a whale that didn't have back legs and had a blowhole only about halfway between the nose and the top of the head, would you call it a whale or not? It's highly possible such a fossil will be found in the future. What will you call it?

I can tell because lizards have eyelids and ears -- snakes don't. There are other differences, but those are the two most obvious (unless you pick it up and its tail breaks off).
Yep. So when you look at dorudon's skull and ribcage and teeth and they look more like modern whales than anything else . . .

So do manatees, dugongs, and sea cows. They also have quite a few differences.
And you can tell those similarities are due to convergent evolution rather than common descent very easily. Will you at least Acknowledge that Dorudon and Basilosaurus are more similar to whales than to manatees and sea cows?

I don't have a problem with any of their characteristics -- I've not denied a single one, nor do I think they imply evolution in any way.
You keep asserting the similarities aren't good enough for you. This is a typical tactic in YECs, move the bar to a point where the evidence doesn't quite meet what you demand. Then if the evidence comes in, you move the goalposts again.

You're pulling out other aquatic organisms as red herrings. Dorudon and basilosaurus aren't like any other aquatic mammals other than having somewhat similar adaptations (you know, convergence). They are, most obviously, similar to whales. But for you, they have to be anything but whales because if they were whales with legs and a blowhole not in the perfect spot they must have come from a land living ancestor. And that means evolution that you're unwilling to accept, so obviously they can't be whales.

Let me ask you this. What kind of evidence *would* convince you that whales evolved from a land living ancestor?
 

The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
Take a look at the illustrations. All of it, by then. All that happens is differential growth of the same bones and tissues we have, that relocates the nostrils.

First you say it's fully developed, and in the next breath you say that it develops further and pushes the nostrils back -- what kind of double-talk is this?

All transitionals are "fully developed." If not, they couldn't survive. The "double talk" comes in using "fully developed" as creationist weasel words. But in this case, the nostrils in whale embryos are fully developed, open into the nasal passages, and so on. As the embryo develops, differential growth moves the nostrils back and repositions the palate to form a blow hole. It's not unusual to see this. The opossum embyro, for example, starts with the reptilian jaw joint, and during development, the bones reposition themselves to form the mammalian jaw joint and the mammalian middle ear.

Barbarian suggests:
I don't know, but I'll be you a chocolate chip cookie that if I can locate data on nostrils in transitional whales, we'll see the same process in different species. Wanna bet?

What are you talking about?

The embryological evidence indicates the way that the blow hole evolved from nostrils. I'm predicting that we'll see it in transitional whales. (and no, I haven't seen the evidence, yet) So, wanna bet?

The data is complete.

I'm not talking about the data -- I'm talking about it's head.

Me too. That's how we know it happens.

And I don't believe for a second that any credible scientist would claim that the data on whale evolution is complete.

True, but irrelevant. We do have the data on whale embryos.

Barbarian observes:
You see, blow holes weren't "designed" or poofed into existence. They developed from existing structures by evolution.

Ever since the Enlightenment, intellectuals have fancied themselves wiser than God.

Now, creationists think they're wiser than God. God is a lot smarter and more capable than creationists are willing to let Him be.

Barbarian observes:
Except for transitional whales, where we see a gradual change from the rostrum to the forehead.

All you actually see are different kinds of animals which have nostrils in different places,

Gradually, over time, in the same lineage. How do we know this? Because the anatomical changes are gradual and we can see the unique sigmoid bones of the ear, and so on. Even many creationists now admit that all whales are descended from early whales.

which isn't much of a surprise because they're different kinds of animals to begin with.

If you think so, you don't know much about them.

Barbarian chides:
C'mon. You know what recapitulation is. And this isn't it. A modern whale doesn't become Dorudon or Ambulocetus in utero; it's just constrained by what happened in ancestral species.

This is just a rehash of the same old thing.

Nope. You might want to learn about that. It's holding you back from understanding something important.

It's probably got gill slits at one point too, right?

Branchial arches. In primitive chordates, they form feeding apparatus. In fish, gills and jaws. In tetrapods, jaws and auditory structures. Nothing completely new, just using old structures for new things.

Barbarian asks:
Scientists can easily show that Basilosaurus and Dorudon are ancestral whales and manatees and dugongs are not. Would you like to learn why?

I never claimed manatees or dugongs were ancestral whales. And as I understand it, there's still some question as to whether Basilosaurs or Dorudon were ancestral whales, or a side-branch that died out.

It would be truly surprising if the specific fossil we found was the very one that was ancestral to today's whales. They are only close to the ones that did.

Of course, I think they were just another kind of aquatic mammal, probably unrelated to anything else save each other.

That's what the evidence is for. And it says modern whales evolved from the ancient ones.
 

Dr.Watson

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If you don't know, feel free to say so. :)

Keep posting this same lie, Stripe. You know very well that I do know. And you know very well that I covered this topic quite extensively (in relation to the understanding of the audience) in the thread that this was discussed.
 
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