Questions about Mary from a recent BEL show

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Better yet, where does it say that we should?

Hey r.d.,

I'm assuming you mean that we should pray for each other. Jefferson posted early in this thread with some biblical examples.

Also, 1 Timothy 2:1-4 says so also. It even says that it is "good and acceptable" to God when we do so.

Thanks.

 

[Derf]

Hey Derf,

I agree that Tambora has asked good questions. It makes for a good conversation.

As far as your question above: Only God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. We all probably (hopefully ) agree on that. We also see that the angels of God rejoice over one repentant sinner. (Luke 15:10). So angels rejoice when a human repents. Probably there is more than one repentant sinner on the earth at any given time. Probably there is hundreds, thousands or even millions. How can the angels know all that? They are not omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent. They are creatures. I don't know. I don't know how the "spiritual technology" works. But the Bible says they can so I don't worry so much about the "how" they can. Jesus says those who have died are "like the angels". Bottom line is that I think the spiritual world is much closer to us than we usually realize.

They don't need to be omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent. First of all, no matter how many prayers are directed to a saint it is never an infinite amount. It is always finite. Just like with the angels. The confidence I have that they can hear the prayers comes from faith that God lets them hear. It is confidence in God, not the saints. The only thing the saints need to accomplish is to pray for us. They have no power in and of themselves to accomplish things. A person in Heaven can pray for us just like they did when they walked the earth. Why wouldn't they? Do they stop loving us?


I think you've set up a false dichotomy here. The saints are not "omni" anything (to put it briefly). I agree with you that that would be blasphemous. And my confidence doesn't wane at all. Here's why:

1. Believers make up the Body of Christ. "For as in one body we have many members....so we, though many, are one body in Christ." (Romans 12:4-5 and elsewhere)
2. Christ has only one Body. "Saul,Saul, why do you persecute me?" (Acts. 9:4-5)
3. Death does not separate us from Christ.(see Romans 8)
4. We are told to pray for each other and ask others to pray for us. Period. The Bible nowhere says that believers are released from that responsibility at death.

In order to accept that those who have physically died no longer pray for us, no longer care about us, etc. I have to believe that they are disconnect from the Body of Christ at death.

I think you've managed to insert your own false dichotomy here. But in truth, they are disconnected from the Body of Christ, at least in the sense that we don't converse with them or have fellowship with them. In this sense, they ARE dead. If you are having this kind of conversation/fellowship with departed ones, the kind where you are listening to them and performing your bodily obligations of praying for them, etc., then you ARE practicing necromancy.

But I don't see that anywhere in Scripture. I see the opposite. Especially in 1 Cor. 12 where one part of the Body cannot say to another part of the Body "I have no need of you". I don't see how part of the Body of Christ (on earth) can say to another part of the Body of Christ (those in Heaven): out of sight, out of mind (basically). "I have no need of you."

Then I guess it would need to work in reverse, too--you should be praying for them still. If not, then you are not fulfilling your bodily obligation to them. But how do you know what to pray for? The premise of prayer to our Heavenly Father or to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit is not just that they receive our requests and grant or deny--but that we have relationship with them; that we hear them when they speak to us. The same for those here on earth that we ask to pray for us (which is a "prayer" of sorts to them)--it is being done in relationship. I don't see that as possible with those that have gone before.

The other thing your comment here makes me think of is that we have examples of how we are to behave ourselves with respect to those that are here, but never with respect to those that are no longer here. If we have some kind of connection still to those, besides just memory, whereby we ought to conduct ourselves, why didn't Paul or Peter or John or Jesus tell us about it? How do we perform the "one anothers" to them? If we can't do that, then it would seem that while they may be part of the body of Christ, our obligations to them as such are not apparent. Neither is it be apparent that we should continue to ask them to pray for us.

It isn't pray to others "rather" than Jesus. It isn't either/or but both/and. We established very early on in this discussion (I think Jefferson did) that it is completely biblical to pray for each other and to ask others to pray for us. Otherwise, when someone else asks us to pray for them we should say, "No. You need to keep your eyes on Jesus and ask Him only. The best I can do is just pass your request on to Him." But we say yes to each other all of the time for that. We say, "Of course I will pray for you...AND you keep praying to Jesus, too!"

And all of the instances in the Bible where we see a request for prayer are to those that are still alive. Never do we see anyone asking a departed loved one to pray for them. With so many opportunities, and so great a benefit you seem to think we will derive from it, why wouldn't one of the New Testament writers suggest it to us?

Thanks a lot for your thoughts, Derf. I am kindof looking for someone to answer my main question at this point, I guess:

Are those who die in relationship with God still a part of the Body of Christ or not?

I think they ARE part of the body of Christ, but they aren't the same anymore. They aren't doing things for the body here on earth. Maybe they are in heaven, but the limited picture we see of their activities doesn't seem like they are actively involved with the things of earth anymore. Those that are "under the altar" in Revelations are not praying for us, but for themselves, when they say "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" (Rev 6:10).

And I guess one more:

Where does the Bible say we can only pray for each other while we walk the earth?

Thanks.

 

[Right Divider]

Hey r.d.,

I'm assuming you mean that we should pray for each other. Jefferson posted early in this thread with some biblical examples.

Also, 1 Timothy 2:1-4 says so also. It even says that it is "good and acceptable" to God when we do so.

Thanks.

My point was that instead of saying "Does any command in scripture say that that we shouldn't?", it would be much better to ask , "is there any that SAY that we should?".

 

[musterion]

My point was that instead of saying "Does any command in scripture say that that we shouldn't?", it would be much better to ask , "is there is any that SAY that we should?".

Bardie don't play dat.

 

[Tambora]

I've never heard a dead person ask me to pray for them.

 

[steko]

I've never heard a dead person ask me to pray for them.

I ain't never heard a dead person say anything. :noid:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Our Lady of Guadalupe is my favorite, because I like saying Guadalupe.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Relationship: Philippians 2:4,5 A concept that is difficult for many Christians, who are not a part of a body, is that our Christianity isn't just "Jesus and me." Romans 12:5 Part of genuinely learning to love like God, is learning to love one another. In fact, "all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two. Regardless of who we are, Calvinist, Catholic, or MAD, we all hold to the two great commandments as an expression of our faith. Praying for one another is loving one another, and part of each member belonging to all the others. Will God listen to just my prayers? Yes, and He does. Not sharing, however, doesn't build up the faith in the body of which I am a part. We don't do a lot of body building on TOL (or other forums) so I think it cannot suffice for church or the assembling together of ourselves. That said, we have a prayer section and we have saints on here that do little else but encourage the body. -Lon

Hey Lon,

Nice post here. It makes sense.

Thanks.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

My point was that instead of saying "Does any command in scripture say that that we shouldn't?", it would be much better to ask , "is there any that SAY that we should?".

The Bible says that we should pray for others and that it is "good and acceptable" to God.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Bardie don't play dat.

That is sort of sounding a little uncharitable at this point, musterion.

Anyways, why would I "play dat"? Scripture nowhere tells us that everything we need to know will be explicitly stated in Scripture. Some stuff is implicit and we learn it through inference. The Doctrine of the Trinity is a good example of that.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

I've never heard a dead person ask me to pray for them.

Hey Tambora,

Me neither. And like Chris Price once said in a song ,"It seems like God is talking to everybody but me." I've never heard God talk to me audibly either.

Do we only pray for people who ask us to? Or can we see people in our day or hear of situations around the world (tragedies) etc. and pray for those people?

Some close friends of mine have developed this habit of pausing to praying for people every time they hear a siren. They ask God to help the people who are in need, and for the criminal if it is a crime, and for the emergency personnel responding.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

I think you've managed to insert your own false dichotomy here. But in truth, they are disconnected from the Body of Christ, at least in the sense that we don't converse with them or have fellowship with them. In this sense, they ARE dead.

Hey Derf,

Thanks for your thoughts here. I'm not sure that I would agree with you that they are disconnected from the Body of Christ in any sense. I mean, Paul said in Romans 8 (I think) that death is one of the things that does not separate us from Christ. If we are not separated from Christ, then we are not separated from each other. He is the head, we are the Body.

I will grant you that the relationship is very different because of the difference between the physical realm and the spiritual realm. That gets quite mysterious. But because of what Paul has written, I do believe we have fellowship with saints who have passed on.

If you are having this kind of conversation/fellowship with departed ones, the kind where you are listening to them and performing your bodily obligations of praying for them, etc., then you ARE practicing necromancy.

Ok, I don't listen to saints. All I do is say "Please pray for me." Just like I could to you right now say "Please pray for me." And I trust the God will hear your prayer on my behalf and I trust that God will hear their prayer on my behalf.

We should probably pause right here and define necromancy if you would like to continue this discussion. I'll leave that up to you.

Then I guess it would need to work in reverse, too--you should be praying for them still. If not, then you are not fulfilling your bodily obligation to them. But how do you know what to pray for?

I do pray to God for those who have died. I pray for God to have mercy on their souls.

The premise of prayer to our Heavenly Father or to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit is not just that they receive our requests and grant or deny--but that we have relationship with them; that we hear them when they speak to us. The same for those here on earth that we ask to pray for us (which is a "prayer" of sorts to them)--it is being done in relationship. I don't see that as possible with those that have gone before.

Well, I think the relationship part is possible. It has to be according to what Paul wrote. I think understanding the "spiritual technology" part of it is mysterious because we know so little about the spiritual realm. I think of it like this. Those in Heaven can know what is going on here on earth because God allows them to.

Let me ask you this...do you think you have a relationship with your Guardian Angel?

The other thing your comment here makes me think of is that we have examples of how we are to behave ourselves with respect to those that are here, but never with respect to those that are no longer here. If we have some kind of connection still to those, besides just memory, whereby we ought to conduct ourselves, why didn't Paul or Peter or John or Jesus tell us about it? How do we perform the "one anothers" to them? If we can't do that, then it would seem that while they may be part of the body of Christ, our obligations to them as such are not apparent. Neither is it be apparent that we should continue to ask them to pray for us.

There exists this difficulty because we are so earthly minded and we are trying to discuss heavenly minded things. It's interesting, but difficult. Those who have gone on ahead of us are no longer encumbered by all of the earthly things that we are here. Stress, work, what to eat, what to wear, worry, joblessness, car broke down, divorce, pay the bills....almost everything really. I'm not sure but it seems that the only thing they may need is for God to have mercy on them. I think that is worth praying for them, don't you? Think of the person you love the most of all. Wouldn't it make sense to ask God to have mercy on them?

It think Paul did tell us about it. Just not explicitly.

And all of the instances in the Bible where we see a request for prayer are to those that are still alive. Never do we see anyone asking a departed loved one to pray for them. With so many opportunities, and so great a benefit you seem to think we will derive from it, why wouldn't one of the New Testament writers suggest it to us?

Why do we have to limit our search to the Bible? There is evidence that the early Church did pray for those that had died...before the Bible was compiled in the late 4th century and maybe even before some of the Bible was written. It could be that the early Christians didn't write about it because they lived it.

I think they ARE part of the body of Christ, but they aren't the same anymore. They aren't doing things for the body here on earth. Maybe they are in heaven, but the limited picture we see of their activities doesn't seem like they are actively involved with the things of earth anymore.

I agree that we do have a limited picture and they aren't the same...the spiritual realm thing. But I think they are actively involved with the things of the earth. Even just logically it seems to make sense. If I have a person I love dearly and pray for them daily, why would I stop if I die tomorrow? Would you stop? I don't think I will. I mean, I can't imagine stopping to pray for a person I love. In fact, I think my prayers might just intensify because I wouldn't be caught up in the things of this world anymore.

Hebrews 12:22+ says: "But you have come to the city...AND to angels...AND to Jesus..AND to spirits of just men made perfect..." I think we come to those things through prayer. So they are not that far off. I wonder if the spiritual realm is much closer than we think. (Which is also probably why Satan can tempt us and try to do his damage.)

Those that are "under the altar" in Revelations are not praying for us, but for themselves, when they say "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" (Rev 6:10).

But this at least shows that they are still actively involved with the things of the earth. They want justice and they are aware that the Lord has not yet avenged their blood. So they know that hasn't happened yet. And they are also told to hang on, there has to be some more martyrs first. So they have some awareness of what is happening on earth.


Thanks for the conversation.

 

[Right Divider]

The Bible says that we should pray for others and that it is "good and acceptable" to God.

Yes, Paul was speaking to people that were alive in the flesh.

You clearly want to make contact with the dead and nothing will persuade you that there is any problem with that.

 

[Tambora]

And remember, the dead in relationship with God are alive.

I've already told you I was speaking of the physically dead, not the spiritually dead.

And BTW, the spiritually dead can hear you and you can hear them.

Unless the believers in Heaven are cut off from the Body of Christ. I don't believe they are.

Of course not.
Who has even suggested that???
But they are cut off from the physically living.

And the living are not supposed to communicate with the dead.
It's not that you CANNOT communicate with the dead, because we know that it can happen (the witch of Endor).
But God forbid His people to do so.

Trust in God's wisdom.

 

[Derf]

Hey Derf,

Thanks for your thoughts here. I'm not sure that I would agree with you that they are disconnected from the Body of Christ in any sense. I mean, Paul said in Romans 8 (I think) that death is one of the things that does not separate us from Christ. If we are not separated from Christ, then we are not separated from each other. He is the head, we are the Body.

I will grant you that the relationship is very different because of the difference between the physical realm and the spiritual realm. That gets quite mysterious. But because of what Paul has written, I do believe we have fellowship with saints who have passed on.



Ok, I don't listen to saints.

Why not????? Isn't that part of having fellowship? Let's define fellowship (from Merriam-Webster online):

1. a friendly relationship among people
2. the relationship of people who share interests or feelings​

I don't think you are able to do either of those things with those that have passed on. They certainly don't share their interests or feelings with you if you don't listen to them.

All I do is say "Please pray for me." Just like I could to you right now say "Please pray for me." And I trust the God will hear your prayer on my behalf and I trust that God will hear their prayer on my behalf.

But you don't have to trust that I hear you when you ask. I can actually respond and say, "Yes, I will pray for you." And I hopefully will ask you, "What is it you would like me to pray for you about?" Despite the assertion you make that they know what's going on down here (they might, but we don't know if or how much they know), we are never told they can hear everything we say just by us saying it. So, for us to get the message to them, what do we have to do? In a sense, we have to summon them. I agree that the technology of the spirit world is a mystery to me, but some have endeavored to tap into that technology over the years. It's called a seance.

On the other hand, if you are saying we don't need any word back from them that our petitions to them (to petition God for us) are working, then the practice seems to be of little use. It's more of a "Hail Mary" play, like in football, if you'll pardon the expression and pun.

We should probably pause right here and define necromancy if you would like to continue this discussion. I'll leave that up to you.

Ok.

From Merriam-Webster again: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events

Isn't that what prayer is? At least a good part of it? We are seeking to influence the course of events--which isn't wrong to do, with either God or our still living friends, but then it's not necromancy.

And to get the full understanding of that one, we should understand what "conjure" means:
1 to charge or entreat earnestly or solemnly
2 to summon by or as if by invocation or incantation
So putting the 2 together, and giving you the benefit of the doubt by using the first definition of "conjure", we get a definition of necromancy as follows:
"entreating spirits of the dead earnestly for the purpose of influencing the course of events" Isn't that exactly what you are suggesting is a good thing to do?

I do pray to God for those who have died. I pray for God to have mercy on their souls.


Well, I think the relationship part is possible. It has to be according to what Paul wrote. I think understanding the "spiritual technology" part of it is mysterious because we know so little about the spiritual realm. I think of it like this. Those in Heaven can know what is going on here on earth because God allows them to.

Let me ask you this...do you think you have a relationship with your Guardian Angel?

I'm not sure how to answer that question. Are you asking if I have conversations with him? No. Do I have "fellowship" with him"? No. Am I aware, apart from a single reference in scripture that I even have a guardian angel? No. In other words there is little evidence of his existence, much less of an avenue for relationship. From the scriptures, I expect I have one, and from certain occurrences that could be attributable to providence, I could postulate his existence. But none of those things would fit what I call a "relationship". Usually one would want to be aware of someone's existence through other means than just a third party's written words to have "relationship". Relationship involves some kind of two-way communication.

There exists this difficulty because we are so earthly minded and we are trying to discuss heavenly minded things. It's interesting, but difficult. Those who have gone on ahead of us are no longer encumbered by all of the earthly things that we are here. Stress, work, what to eat, what to wear, worry, joblessness, car broke down, divorce, pay the bills....almost everything really. I'm not sure but it seems that the only thing they may need is for God to have mercy on them. I think that is worth praying for them, don't you? Think of the person you love the most of all. Wouldn't it make sense to ask God to have mercy on them?

I don't know that that is a problem, as long as we aren't seeking information from them or "conjuring to influence the outcome of events". Some people feel Paul prayed for mercy for a dead man in 2 Tim 1:16-18.

Why do we have to limit our search to the Bible? There is evidence that the early Church did pray for those that had died...before the Bible was compiled in the late 4th century and maybe even before some of the Bible was written. It could be that the early Christians didn't write about it because they lived it.

Why should we limit our search to the early Church? Maybe the ancient Egyptians have something to say about this? Or Bhuddists? Or Satanists? The reason we limit our search to the bible is that we trust it as a source. Maybe you don't, as you seem to indicate you think the bible is missing something. But you've confirmed what we are saying--the bible doesn't talk about asking spirits to pray for us, and to justify it, you need to go outside the bible. That can be a dangerous thing to do, for various reasons.

I agree that we do have a limited picture and they aren't the same...the spiritual realm thing. But I think they are actively involved with the things of the earth. Even just logically it seems to make sense. If I have a person I love dearly and pray for them daily, why would I stop if I die tomorrow? Would you stop? I don't think I will. I mean, I can't imagine stopping to pray for a person I love. In fact, I think my prayers might just intensify because I wouldn't be caught up in the things of this world anymore.

Hebrews 12:22+ says: "But you have come to the city...AND to angels...AND to Jesus..AND to spirits of just men made perfect..." I think we come to those things through prayer. So they are not that far off. I wonder if the spiritual realm is much closer than we think. (Which is also probably why Satan can tempt us and try to do his damage.)

Yes! Maybe he is tempting you to commit necromancy, when you desire to communicate with departed ones!

But this at least shows that they are still actively involved with the things of the earth. They want justice and they are aware that the Lord has not yet avenged their blood. So they know that hasn't happened yet. And they are also told to hang on, there has to be some more martyrs first. So they have some awareness of what is happening on earth.

I never said they had no awareness. But are they here attempting to change things on earth? No, they are not. They are asking the Lord about how things are going to play out, recognizing that He is just and will not allow them to go unavenged forever.

 

[Derf]

Hey Derf,

Thanks for your thoughts here. I'm not sure that I would agree with you that they are disconnected from the Body of Christ in any sense. I mean, Paul said in Romans 8 (I think) that death is one of the things that does not separate us from Christ. If we are not separated from Christ, then we are not separated from each other. He is the head, we are the Body.

I will grant you that the relationship is very different because of the difference between the physical realm and the spiritual realm. That gets quite mysterious. But because of what Paul has written, I do believe we have fellowship with saints who have passed on.



Ok, I don't listen to saints.

Why not listen to saints????? Isn't that part of having fellowship? Let's define fellowship (from Merriam-Webster online):

1. a friendly relationship among people
2. the relationship of people who share interests or feelings​

I don't think you are able to do either of those things with those that have passed on. They ceratinly don't share their interests or feelings with you if you don't listen to them.

All I do is say "Please pray for me." Just like I could to you right now say "Please pray for me." And I trust the God will hear your prayer on my behalf and I trust that God will hear their prayer on my behalf.

But you don't have to trust that I hear you when you ask. I can actually respond and say, "Yes, I will pray for you." And I hopefully will ask you, "What is it you would like me to pray for you about?" Despite the assertion you make that they know what's going on down here (they might, but we don't know if or how much they know), we are never told they can hear everything we say just by us saying it. So, for us to get the message to them, what do we have to do? In a sense, we have to summon them. I agree that the technology of the spirit world is a mystery to me, but some have endeavored to tap into that technology over the years. It's called a seance.

On the other hand, if you are saying we don't need any word back from them that our petitions to them (to petition God for us) are working, then the practice seems to be of little use. It's more of a "Hail Mary" play, like in football, if you'll pardon the expression and pun.

We should probably pause right here and define necromancy if you would like to continue this discussion. I'll leave that up to you.

Ok.

From Merriam-Webster again: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events

Isn't that what prayer is? At least a good part of it? We are seeking to influence the course of events--which isn't wrong to do.

And to get the full understanding of that one, we should understand what "conjure" means:
1 to charge or entreat earnestly or solemnly
2 to summon by or as if by invocation or incantation
So putting the 2 together, and giving you the benefit of the doubt by using the first definition of "conjure", we get a definition of necromancy as follows:
"entreating spirits of the dead earnestly for the purpose of influencing the course of events" Isn't that exactly what you are suggesting is a good thing to do?

I do pray to God for those who have died. I pray for God to have mercy on their souls.


Well, I think the relationship part is possible. It has to be according to what Paul wrote. I think understanding the "spiritual technology" part of it is mysterious because we know so little about the spiritual realm. I think of it like this. Those in Heaven can know what is going on here on earth because God allows them to.

Let me ask you this...do you think you have a relationship with your Guardian Angel?

I'm not sure how to answer that question. Are you asking if I have conversations with him? No. Do I have "fellowship" with him"? No. Am I aware, apart from a single reference in scripture that I even have a guardian angel? No. In other words there is little evidence of his existence, much less of an avenue for relationship. From the scriptures, I expect I have one, and from certain occurrences that could be attributable to providential care, I could postulate his existence. But none of those things would fit what I call a "relationship". Usually one would want to be aware of someone's existence through other means than just a third party's written words to have "relationship". Relationship involves some kind of two-way interaction or communication.

There exists this difficulty because we are so earthly minded and we are trying to discuss heavenly minded things. It's interesting, but difficult. Those who have gone on ahead of us are no longer encumbered by all of the earthly things that we are here. Stress, work, what to eat, what to wear, worry, joblessness, car broke down, divorce, pay the bills....almost everything really. I'm not sure but it seems that the only thing they may need is for God to have mercy on them. I think that is worth praying for them, don't you? Think of the person you love the most of all. Wouldn't it make sense to ask God to have mercy on them?

I don't know that that is a problem, as long as we aren't seeking information from them or "conjuring to influence the outcome of events". Some people feel Paul prayed for mercy for a dead man in 2 Tim 1:16-18.

Why do we have to limit our search to the Bible? There is evidence that the early Church did pray for those that had died...before the Bible was compiled in the late 4th century and maybe even before some of the Bible was written. It could be that the early Christians didn't write about it because they lived it.

Why should we limit our search to the early Church? Maybe the ancient Egyptians have something to say about this? Or Bhuddists? Or Satanists? The reason we limit our search to the bible is that we trust it as a source. Maybe you don't, as you seem to indicate you think the bible is missing something. But you've confirmed what we are saying--the bible doesn't talk about asking spirits to pray for us, and to justify it, you need to go outside the bible. That can be a dangerous thing to do, for various reasons.

I agree that we do have a limited picture and they aren't the same...the spiritual realm thing. But I think they are actively involved with the things of the earth. Even just logically it seems to make sense. If I have a person I love dearly and pray for them daily, why would I stop if I die tomorrow? Would you stop? I don't think I will. I mean, I can't imagine stopping to pray for a person I love. In fact, I think my prayers might just intensify because I wouldn't be caught up in the things of this world anymore.

Hebrews 12:22+ says: "But you have come to the city...AND to angels...AND to Jesus..AND to spirits of just men made perfect..." I think we come to those things through prayer. So they are not that far off. I wonder if the spiritual realm is much closer than we think. (Which is also probably why Satan can tempt us and try to do his damage.)

Yes! Maybe he is tempting you to commit necromancy, when you desire to communicate with departed ones!

But this at least shows that they are still actively involved with the things of the earth. They want justice and they are aware that the Lord has not yet avenged their blood. So they know that hasn't happened yet. And they are also told to hang on, there has to be some more martyrs first. So they have some awareness of what is happening on earth.

I never said they had no awareness. But are they here attempting to change things on earth? No, they are not. They are asking the Lord about how things are going to play out, recognizing that He is just and will not allow them to go unavenged forever.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Yes, Paul was speaking to people that were alive in the flesh.

You clearly want to make contact with the dead and nothing will persuade you that there is any problem with that.

Hey r.d.,

I don't want to make "contact with the dead" as in have a seance or know the future or any of those things God forbade.

I want Christians who are even closer to God than I am to pray for me. So I ask them to.

I've explained why and the reason nothing has persuaded me yet is because I haven't heard a good reason why there is a problem. Many of my honest questions are simply being ignored.

There is an obvious assumption that Paul only meant his words to those who were alive. But that is an assumption. He never says that.

 

[Right Divider]

Hey r.d.,

I don't want to make "contact with the dead" as in have a seance or know the future or any of those things God forbade.

I want Christians who are even closer to God than I am to pray for me. So I ask them to.

I've explained why and the reason nothing has persuaded me yet is because I haven't heard a good reason why there is a problem. Many of my honest questions are simply being ignored.

There is an obvious assumption that Paul only meant his words to those who were alive. But that is an assumption. He never says that.

Hey BtB,

As I tried to explain, there is NO precedence from Paul's epistles or ANY other part of scripture that we should in ANY way attempt to contact those that have left planet earth for heaven or hell.

You're using some terrible logic to try to get around this. Every single time that Paul told people to pray for one another, he was talking about people that were living on the earth (either in person or those that would read his epistles).

Your "argument from silence" it a horrible way to try to convince yourself of something that is wrong by any clear Biblical standard.

-RD

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

I've already told you I was speaking of the physically dead, not the spiritually dead.

And BTW, the spiritually dead can hear you and you can hear them.

But the spiritually alive can't hear me?

Of course not.
Who has even suggested that???
But they are cut off from the physically living.

The suggestion has been made repeatedly by the assumption that those who die in Christ cannot pray for us.

If Christ is the vine and we are the branches, if death does not separate us from Christ then it doesn't separate us from each other, then those who have passed on are still a part of the Body of Christ and are not cut off from us. As derf and I were discussing, they are in a different place and it gets mysterious, but nowhere does the Bible (that I know of) say what you did. That they are cut off from the physically living. I mean, obviously it is different from when they lived on earth. But that doesn't mean they are cut off from us. Christ has one body and we on earth as well as those who have died all remain a part of it because death doesn't separate us completely.

What does the being "surrounded by a cloud of witnesses" mean then? It seems to me to mean a bunch of saints and they are aware of us! Otherwise they aren't witnesses.

And the living are not supposed to communicate with the dead.

What is your definition of necromancy?

It's not that you CANNOT communicate with the dead, because we know that it can happen (the witch of Endor).

But God forbid His people to do so.

I agree. And the witch of Endor is an example of conjuring a spirit to try to learn of future events and Saul sinned against God by doing so.

But that isn't what Jesus did in talking to Moses and that isn't what I do if I ask St. Paul to pray for me. Asking a saint to pray for me and conjuring a spirit are nowhere near the same thing.

I could even ask St. Paul to pray for us right now. Watch.

"St. Paul, please pray for us as we strive to become better followers of Jesus Christ."

Does that sound like conjuring up a spirit or trying to foresee the future or something?

To me it sounds like the same thing I could ask Paul to do when he was on earth. He's just closer to God now.

Trust in God's wisdom.

I try to.

 

[Tambora]

The suggestion has been made repeatedly by the assumption that those who die in Christ cannot pray for us.

Not by me.

I don't know of any reason why physically dead spirits cannot pray, so you can take that strawman elsewhere.