Public school education vs. homeschool education

[Ktoyou]

I don't agree that people are teachers because they aren't talented enough to do something else. We are talking high school education here folks. Let's take a math teacher for instance. They have to have a bachelors degree in mathematics which means they took some seriouly high level math courses in college. At best a top notch academic high school will teach second quarter calculus. Anyone with a degree in math should easily understand second quarter calculus

That is true, very true, however I have known algebra teachers who did not know logarithms. Serious honest truth! Many secondary teachers are terrible at the subjects they teach and they would not make it if held to private school and private sector standards. I went to a private high school that offered beginning honors calculus. Most in college did not know that such a thing exists! Students HAD to take calculus were I went to college in their freshman year and most started with a analytic geometry, them calculus 1, I started calculus 2 and most of my classmates could not believe I was a freshman. They had their final class in mathematics as trigonometry.

Today one can satisfy mathematics requirements with algebra and trigonometry then something called business math, or math for liberal arts students.

Also, some teachers really want to help young people. Ever hear of Jaime Escalante? The movie Stand and Deliver was about him. He turned a barrio high school in East Los Angeles into a mathematics powerhouse.

He was super and it goes to show what a teacher COULD do, if she or he had the desire.

 

[ebenz47037]

Barbarian observes:
Odd then that American public schools are better than those of most other nations in math and science (TIMSS data). We should be better than that, of course, but being above average certainly isn't "broken beyond repair."



Right. A more comprehensive test is given to 8th graders, which includes more nations, and gives you a better idea of the way the older kids stack up. Not too shabby.

I'm not familiar with the 4th grade results, but it apparently isn't hurting the 8th graders much.

However, the fact that we are better than most countries certainly isn't reason to rest on our laurels. We need to aim to be the best.



Often, there are unforseen reasons for this. Large numbers of immigrants, for example. That brings down some US states, too, even though the quality of instruction actually improved (as measured by the improvement in native-born kids)

Barbarian on why schools (like everything else) cost more today:
Yeah, rising fuel costs, inflation, etc. will do that. If you'll notice most businesses are charging more for their products lately. What makes you think they don't charge schools more money?



Yep. And corporations are generally happy to help, because it pays off for them. They actually got on the legislature in Texas to raise education funds, even though it meant they would pay higher taxes. They were concerned about the need for more technical education.

Before I was teaching, I was an ergonomist for an insurance company, and I helped organize a program to go into schools and help with tutoring, instruction and so on. It was a good deal for us, and for them.



Unfortunately, not. Private donations don't account for much of the public school budget.

In fact, the US spends about as much, as a percentage of GDP, as most other nations do on education. We're pretty average in that area.
http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/econ...iable-643.html

Let's take the countries that participated in TIMSS:



What do they have in common?

Few immigrants, which holds down costs.

Very low birth rates, especially for wealthy people.

It's serious enought that Singapore is actively trying to get professional people to reproduce. Fewer kids do cost less, although there is a cost in the long run.



Recent influx of immigrants, apparently.



"Throwing money" won't help. But if a company came to you and said "we pay our employees 32% less than the going rate for people of equal education in other companies, and we seem to be having trouble keeping people. We'll do anything we can to improve, except pay more money." What would you suggest?

Barbarian observes:
Turnover is bad, and that's caused by money. Retention of good teachers is always a problem. But that's not going to change very soon. Too much money goes into athletics, not enough into lab equipment and salaries.

According to The American Federation of Teachers, teachers in the US made an average of $47,602 a year in the 2004-2005 school year. From The John Locke Foundation, here are the average adjusted salaries for teachers in each of the US states and Washington DC for 2005 (highest to lowest):

State Average - $50,418***



I would hope so. You should compare those people with others holding degrees.



Did he have a degree? Law Enforcement people holding degrees (most cities require at least a two-year degree) make more than teachers, on the average.



I wouldn't do that work for anything. But the requirements for prison guards are lower.



Hmm... with pay and benefits, an officer makes more than teachers. Remember, you have to compare them with others who have degrees.

Barbarian observes:
And the biggest problem has always been the level of committment by parents. In fact, the parents of all successful students homeschool. They just don't call it that. When your kid comes home, you should check his homework to see what it is, and later to see that it's done, helping out, if there's a problem.

If not, then the kids with parents who do, get the advantage. And that is how they get to be successful.



Your district sounds just horrible. This is more evidence for my argument that homeschooling is often the last resort for parents who live in backward areas. My district takes all the volunteers it can get.

I will answer this post later. I've got a migraine and am having a hard time even looking at my monitor. Check this post later for my editing.

 

[ebenz47037]

There's been a very large number of Nobel Laureates, so there must be at least one or so. Can't think of one right now, though.

I'll look again tomorrow. As explained in my above post, I have a migraine right now.

Something will have to profoundly change. The US continues to dominate Nobels.

When the older generations (up to mine, I think) quit competing for Nobels, I think that we will be hard pressed for a US-born academic receiving, or even coming close to receiving, a Nobel Prize. And, that's because schools have begun teaching the kids for the test that they have to take every spring instead of teaching them for every day life and beyond.

But, I think that most of the winners for at least the next three or four decades will be from somewhere other than the US.

I think India and Brazil and China might make some inroads into US dominance. But I wouldn't hold my breath; at present, many of their brightest come to the US to get an education.

I believe that the only way the US will continue winning Nobels is if the other countries citizens start moving here for good. Other countries tend to have more discipline when it comes to education than we do, by a long shot.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
There's been a very large number of Nobel Laureates, so there must be at least one or so. Can't think of one right now, though.

I'll look again tomorrow. As explained in my above post, I have a migraine right now.

My wife gets one occasionally. Sometimes holding an ice cube in each hand helps.

Barbarian:
Something will have to profoundly change. The US continues to dominate Nobels.

When the older generations (up to mine, I think) quit competing for Nobels, I think that we will be hard pressed for a US-born academic receiving, or even coming close to receiving, a Nobel Prize.

Guys young enough to be my kids are winning them. So far, no diminishment. In fact, the generation x guys seem to be doing better, not worse.

And, that's because schools have begun teaching the kids for the test that they have to take every spring instead of teaching them for every day life and beyond.

I'll tell you a secret; most of us teach the subjects required by the state standards, and figure if the test is right, that will be the right thing to do. So far, it's worked for me.

I believe that the only way the US will continue winning Nobels is if the other countries citizens start moving here for good. Other countries tend to have more discipline when it comes to education than we do, by a long shot.

You wouldn't know it by the TIMMS results. Most of them trail us in math and science.

 

[ebenz47037]

Barbarian observes:
There's been a very large number of Nobel Laureates, so there must be at least one or so. Can't think of one right now, though.

My wife gets one occasionally. Sometimes holding an ice cube in each hand helps.

Barbarian:
Something will have to profoundly change. The US continues to dominate Nobels.

Guys young enough to be my kids are winning them. So far, no diminishment. In fact, the generation x guys seem to be doing better, not worse.

I'll tell you a secret; most of us teach the subjects required by the state standards, and figure if the test is right, that will be the right thing to do. So far, it's worked for me.

You wouldn't know it by the TIMMS results. Most of them trail us in math and science.

Right now, I'm only going to comment on what I emboldened. Yes. They trail us in math and science. But, while they are improving, we haven't improved from the 1995 test to the 2003 test. We have to improve in order to stay close to or at the position we now hold.

 

[The Barbarian]

Right now, I'm only going to comment on what I emboldened. Yes. They trail us in math and science.

Even in 4th grade; the difference is more notable in 8th, because we've had more time. After 8th, BTW, most nations remove the "vocational" kids from high schools, and put them in trade schools, so they look better after that, relative to the US.

But the reforms of the past decade have given the US a definite advantage.

But, while they are improving, we haven't improved from the 1995 test to the 2003 test.

If we want to do better, we will have to build on the reforms, and go farther with them. That costs money.

We have to improve in order to stay close to or at the position we now hold

True. But are you willing to do what it takes to do that? Some states already have it underway. And some states have yet to enact any reforms. And "No Child Left Behind" will make it harder, since it orders a limit on the number of learning disabled kids, and therefore limits how many of them can receive help. One might as well order a limit on the number of hailstorms for all the good it does.

 

[The Berean]

I'll show her the website tonight (in about fifteen minutes, when she takes over the computer for an hour). She doesn't know anything about aerospace engineering, despite the conversation you and I had in the past. She said repair. But, she's 17 and could change her mind. :chuckle:

The hippotherapy thing is because she loves horses and likes kids. She wants to limit her work, if she goes into that, to kids only.

Nori,

Show:jessilu:this good description of aerospace engineering. :thumb:

Aerospace engineers design, develop, and test aircraft, spacecraft, and missiles, and supervise the production of these products. Those who work with aircraft are called aeronautical engineers, and those working specifically with spacecraft are astronautical engineers. Aerospace engineers develop new technologies for use in aviation, defense systems, and space exploration, often specializing in areas such as structural design, guidance, navigation and control, instrumentation and communication, or production methods. They also may specialize in a particular type of aerospace product, such as commercial aircraft, military fighter jets, helicopters, spacecraft, or missiles and rockets, and may become experts in aerodynamics, thermodynamics, celestial mechanics, propulsion, acoustics, or guidance and control systems".

Aerospace engineers are expected to have slower-than-average growth in employment over the projection period. Although increases in the number and scope of military aerospace projects likely will generate new jobs, increased efficiency will limit the number of new jobs in the design and production of commercial aircraft. Even with slow growth, the employment outlook for aerospace engineers through 2014 appears favorable: the number of degrees granted in aerospace engineering declined for many years because of a perceived lack of opportunities in this field, and, although this trend is reversing, new graduates continue to be needed to replace aerospace engineers who retire or leave the occupation for other reasons".

Earnings for engineers vary significantly by specialty, industry, and education. Even so, as a group, engineers earn some of the highest average starting salaries among those holding bachelor’s degrees. The following tabulation shows average starting salary offers for aerospace engineers, according to a 2005 survey by the National Association of Colleges and Employers.

Starting salaries:
Bachelor's - $50,993
Master's - $62,930
Ph. D. - $72,530

I fully expect the space industry to take off for the next 20 years. Space tourism will become a large business within five years and there are currently many startup companies trying to develop a single-stage-to-orbit space vehicle that will revolutionize space travel.

 

[The Barbarian]

Right now, the highest starting salaries are for math majors as entry-level actuaries.

I agree that aerospace engineering might indeed become a hot degree again. But it will always be more subject to market fluctuations than other engineering degrees.

If one is really good, it won't matter, of course.

 

[Lighthouse]

What is your experience with kids or education? Do you have kids, or have you taught them? What age kids are you talking about? Have you see a kids "teach themselves" to read?

I used to be a kid in the education system. I may not have taught myself to read, initially, but as soon as I learned phonics, I became the best reader in my class. I also have taught myself how to use a computer. I have taught myself to do many things on a computer that people are taking classes to learn.

 

[Lighthouse]

What is your experience with kids or education? Do you have kids, or have you taught them? What age kids are you talking about? Have you see a kids "teach themselves" to read?

I almost forgot. I have not taught kids.

 

[Highline]

I think that children whose parents either were more than just a little interested in learning when they were children tend to like learning better than children whose parents showed little interest in learning when they were children. I may be wrong about this. But, I look at myself, my brother, my older sister, and my youngest sister. My dad had a great love of learning. He learns all he can today, even though he's in his 70s. :chuckle: The four of us love learning. Now, my brother and those two sisters had regular contact with my dad while growing up. But, I didn't. My mom hated school and learning when she was growing up. My other two sisters (raised solely by my mom) also hated school and learning when they were growing up. Their children hate school and don't like it when someone makes them learn. On the other hand, my daughter, my brother's children, and my older sister's children (Youngest sister doesn't have kids yet) all love learning. I don't know if it's hereditary or something that usually comes from the environment you're raised in (although I was raised by my mom, who hated school and learning).

Maybe, I don't know. We don't have a basis for comparison, so my interest as a child might be what you consider high. I don't remember elementary years that clearly, but I liked reading, for instance. When I say I was not interested in leaning at high school, that may also be compared to myself as an adult. I did read a lot, for instance; something I know many high schoolers and adults don't do, but I was more interested in girls and games, something that lessens in adulthood. I say this because my dad has a great love of learning, but sometimes on vacation I'd get sick of museums and old things. I think that is normal for teenager.

The other thing is my oldest daughter does love learning, both at home and at school. I also think she is pretty smart, but I don't think she ever could have taught herself to read. Lighthouse's solution would be that she be illiterate.

 

[Highline]

I used to be a kid in the education system. I may not have taught myself to read, initially, but as soon as I learned phonics, I became the best reader in my class. I also have taught myself how to use a computer. I have taught myself to do many things on a computer that people are taking classes to learn.

I can't remember where I was in terms of the class or what particular teaching philosophy got me to read. I do know that I have learning disabilities (dyslexic) and probably would never have enjoyed reading without good teachers helping me.

 

[ebenz47037]

I can't remember where I was in terms of the class or what particular teaching philosophy got me to read. I do know that I have learning disabilities (dyslexic) and probably would never have enjoyed reading without good teachers helping me.

I'm dyslexic too. But, it wasn't diagnosed until I was in junior high (middle school, now) school. To "cure" me of it, they assigned me to a speed reading course. Now, I cannot read slowly. The good thing is that I still retain the plot of things I read. But, a book that used to take me a week to read now takes me two days to read.

 

[Ktoyou]

Phonics, or phonetics as they once called is a necessity!

Phonics, or phonetics as they once called is a necessity

I received phonetics in first and second grade, followed by diction then elocution, all this along with heavy doses of proscriptive grammar. So, what happened?

Even in 4th grade; the difference is more notable in 8th, because we've had more time. After 8th, BTW, most nations remove the "vocational" kids from high schools, and put them in trade schools, so they look better after that, relative to the US.

Perhaps, although tracking is a good policy and not used in this country because it somehow does not fit into our notion of ‘egalitarian’ society. What a farce, the dumbing down if education, so all can graduate?

Reference, “Dumbing Down our Kids” Charles J. Sykes

 

[The Barbarian]

Phonics, or phonetics as they once called is a necessity!

Phonics, or phonetics as they once called is a necessity

At one time, it was all that was necessary. A few hundred years ago, we pretty much spelled everything phonetically (a fine and logical state of affairs).

But then, we started shifting pronunciations, and borrowing words, and today, it's

"Hukked on foniks wurkt for mee."

My son pretty much taught himself to read as a kindergartener. His teacher taught him how to sound out letters, and he did the rest. She was completely surprised when we praised her for teaching him to read.

But he couldn't spell. Sight reading is also a necessary skill in modern English.

Barbarian observes:
Even in 4th grade; the difference is more notable in 8th, because we've had more time. After 8th, BTW, most nations remove the "vocational" kids from high schools, and put them in trade schools, so they look better after that, relative to the US.

Perhaps, although tracking is a good policy and not used in this country because it somehow does not fit into our notion of ‘egalitarian’ society.

And it's a good thing. If you read the biographies of great American scientists, inventors, engineers, etc., you will be surprised how many of them would have ended up in trade school in most European countries. Because not everyone matures intellectually at the same pace, or in the same way, many other nations have culled out brilliant people who weren't quite ready. This is one of the reasons we have the intellectual and technological lead we do.

It would be pretty dumb for they guy leading the race to stop and copy what the losers are doing.

 

[Ktoyou]

And it's a good thing. If you read the biographies of great American scientists, inventors, engineers, etc., you will be surprised how many of them would have ended up in trade school in most European countries. Because not everyone matures intellectually at the same pace, or in the same way, many other nations have culled out brilliant people who weren't quite ready. This is one of the reasons we have the intellectual and technological lead we do.

There is some truth in what you say, however, most brilliant persons find a way to pursue their brilliance. There is always attending a community college and if one is brilliant, they find a way through school when they are ready.

 

[The Barbarian]

There is some truth in what you say, however, most brilliant persons find a way to pursue their brilliance.

Odd, then, that we see them do it more often in public schools in America, than elsewhere.

There is always attending a community college and if one is brilliant, they find a way through school when they are ready.

Brilliance is more a matter of preparation than genes.

 

[Ktoyou]

Brilliance is more a matter of preparation than genes.

That is pretty much a blanket statement.

 

[Highline]

I'm dyslexic too. But, it wasn't diagnosed until I was in junior high (middle school, now) school. To "cure" me of it, they assigned me to a speed reading course. Now, I cannot read slowly. The good thing is that I still retain the plot of things I read. But, a book that used to take me a week to read now takes me two days to read.

I was diagnosed quite early, 1st grade. I'm not sure what the "cure" was.

Interesting dyslexic story- Alexander the Great was probably dyslexic. The evidence is that he always had correspondence read to him, and he dictated his replies. He came from a patrician family, so growing up he would have had tutors, but he never succeeded in learning to read. He did, however, have the tactical mind to conquer the known civilized world that was around him!

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Brilliance is more a matter of preparation than genes.

That is pretty much a blanket statement.

Yep. True, too. It would be flattering for me to think that my kids reflect the great genes of my wife and I, but realistically, the fact that they had a really superior school district, and my wife and I both took an active role in their intellectual development probably had more to do with it.