Problems for evolution — squid recodes its own RNA

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User Name

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Unfortunately, the assumption that random changes are normal and good is an assumption that is not only exclusive to the evolutionary mindset, it is dangerous in the face of reality.

Crops are never genetically modified with "the assumption that random changes are good," although they are quite normal. What happens is that crops are mutated through any of a variety of processes and those crops that are found to have beneficial mutations are artificially selected for mass production and consumption.
 

Stripe

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Crops are never genetically modified with "the assumption that random changes are good," although they are quite normal. What happens is that crops are mutated through any of a variety of processes and those crops that are found to have beneficial mutations are artificially selected for mass production and consumption.
I guess you did not read your own article. :idunno:
 

6days

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Barbarian said:
6days said:
Perhaps a measurement of sorts is the overall decline of fitness in the human population where there may be a decline of 1 -2% with each generation according to one secular geneticist.
Well, lets consider that belief...

Humans are getting smarter every generation. We know this because the scores necessary for a 100 on IQ tests have been raised every generation.

110 years of IQ tests!! Wooohooo!! ☆☆ Surely that proves man evolved from a little warm pond☆.☆

You either don't understand intelligent quotient and biology, or you are dishonest. Even IF your 'data' is correct...its still meaningless. Biology (as has been explained to you before) is only one factor in IQ. Environment, nutrition and morbidity are also factors that effect test results.

Also.....like always evolutionist extrapolations are nonsense. We have evidence ancient man was very intelligent. And as Christians we believe God created Adam and Eve with great intelligence.

Human fitness is declining. Many many geneticists discuss "degenerative genetic process". Crow, in PNAS, says it is clear that harmful mutations have been accumulating in our genome for for centuries causing a decrease in viability of 1 - 2% per generation.
 

6days

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Crops are never genetically modified with "the assumption that random changes are good," although they are quite normal. What happens is that crops are mutated through any of a variety of processes and those crops that are found to have beneficial mutations are artificially selected for mass production and consumption.
That's false. For decades it was thought that mutating plants and then using artificial selection would improve variety. Millions of plants were mutated...resulting in billions of weak deformed plants. Most geneticists no longer use this method of 'evolution on steroids' since it doesn't work.
 

Daedalean's_Sun

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That's false. For decades it was thought that mutating plants and then using artificial selection would improve variety. Millions of plants were mutated...resulting in billions of weak deformed plants.

Many individual plants are going to have reduced fitness, the few that have increased fitness are selectively bred.


Most geneticists no longer use this method of 'evolution on steroids' since it doesn't work.

Crop seed mutation breeding increasing
 

User Name

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Crops are never genetically modified with "the assumption that random changes are good," although they are quite normal. What happens is that crops are mutated through any of a variety of processes and those crops that are found to have beneficial mutations are artificially selected for mass production and consumption.

I guess you did not read your own article. :idunno:

The point of my post was that most of the changes to plant genomes done through mutation breeding are either neutral or not good, but some are beneficial. According to one source I read, out of 2000 plants produced through mutagenesis, only one or two dozen may be found to have advantageous mutations. Mutation breeding is clumsy and the results are unpredictable, but this process is still far cheaper than genetic engineering techniques.

Mutation breeding is also largely unregulated, unlike the GMO industry. People freak out at the thought of eating "frankenfood" without even realizing that most of the crops they consume have been modified via mutation breeding.
 

Jose Fly

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I thought the argument was concerning increases in fitness?

And before that it was trying to get these creationists to say what "genetic information" is and how they're measuring it.

And before that it was trying to get Stripe to explain how "squid can recode their RNA" = "everything is designed".

You seriously can't expect creationists to stay on topic. Their methodology is pretty obvious....make absurd claims, get called on them, dodge and avoid until there's a new page, then change subjects on the new page.

I understand that from creationists; such dishonesty is what they do. But what bugs me is when the science folks just follow along and don't hold the creationists to task.
 

CabinetMaker

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And before that it was trying to get these creationists to say what "genetic information" is and how they're measuring it.

And before that it was trying to get Stripe to explain how "squid can recode their RNA" = "everything is designed".

You seriously can't expect creationists to stay on topic. Their methodology is pretty obvious....make absurd claims, get called on them, dodge and avoid until there's a new page, then change subjects on the new page.

I understand that from creationists; such dishonesty is what they do. But what bugs me is when the science folks just follow along and don't hold the creationists to task.
IF you get bored of talking genetics with Stripe, get him started on the speed of light. Equally entertaining.
 

Stripe

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The point of my post was that most of the changes to plant genomes done through mutation breeding are either neutral or not good, but some are beneficial. According to one source I read, out of 2000 plants produced through mutagenesis, only one or two dozen may be found to have advantageous mutations. Mutation breeding is clumsy and the results are unpredictable, but this process is still far cheaper than genetic engineering techniques.

Mutation breeding is also largely unregulated, unlike the GMO industry. People freak out at the thought of eating "frankenfood" without even realizing that most of the crops they consume have been modified via mutation breeding.
I notice you're willing to take on the evolutionary worldview without question, but are unwilling to consider the consequences of being wrong.

Why is that?
 

Jose Fly

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That's hilarious.

User Name describes a paper he read and how it shows Stripe's arguments are wrong. Stripe's response? "Why do you believe evolutionists without question?"

:rotfl:
 

User Name

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I notice you're willing to take on the evolutionary worldview without question, but are unwilling to consider the consequences of being wrong.

Why is that?

I question your assumption that I am willing to take on the evolutionary worldview without question. Science is nothing if not inquisitive. As for being wrong, hypotheses are frequently put forward that are subsequently found to be wrong, or at least in need of modification, through scientific investigation.
 

Stripe

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I question your assumption that I am willing to take on the evolutionary worldview without question. Science is nothing if not inquisitive. As for being wrong, hypotheses are frequently put forward that are subsequently found to be wrong, or at least in need of modification, through scientific investigation.

Your post was made with evolution assumed and you ignored my warnings. No assumption made on my part.
 

Jose Fly

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I question your assumption that I am willing to take on the evolutionary worldview without question. Science is nothing if not inquisitive. As for being wrong, hypotheses are frequently put forward that are subsequently found to be wrong, or at least in need of modification, through scientific investigation.
You don't understand. In Stripe's world, anything from an "evolutionist" is automatically wrong, period. You don't need to read it, think about it, or do anything else with it except wave it away.

That's truly how creationists operate, as evidenced by this thread.
 

User Name

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Already done. :up:

Thank you.

You are apparently referring to your post #196 of this thread, in which you state that "random changes" to a genome are "dangerous in the face of reality."

To be sure, the results of mutagenesis (mutating an organism by bombarding it with radiation or chemicals) are unpredictable, and mutations can be harmful (e.g., cause allergic reactions, etc). Consequently, the National Academy of Sciences has warned that “regulating genetically modified crops while giving a pass to mutant products isn’t scientifically justified” because mutagenesis is much less precise and the risk of unintended health effects is increased.

An article published by Bloomberg further states:

Reports from the National Academy of Sciences, representing the consensus of experts in the field, say the risk of creating unintended health effects is greater from mutagenesis than any other technique, including genetic modification. Mutagenesis deletes and rearranges hundreds or thousands of genes randomly, spawning mutations that are less precise than GMOs. The academy has warned that regulating genetically modified crops while giving a pass to mutant products isn’t scientifically justified.​

So there is definitely just cause for concern. That said, it is also true that for upwards of the past century, mutation breeding has been used successfully in a wide variety of crops, for example:

[R]adiation breeding has produced thousands of useful mutants and a sizable fraction of the world’s crops...including varieties of rice, wheat, barley, pears, peas, cotton, peppermint, sunflowers, peanuts, grapefruit, sesame, bananas, cassava and sorghum...The mutations can improve yield, quality, taste, size and resistance to disease and can help plants adapt to diverse climates and conditions...Peanuts got tougher hulls. Barley, oats and wheat got better yields...In 1929, farmers stumbled on the Ruby Red grapefruit, a natural mutant. Its flesh eventually faded to pink, however, and scientists fired radiation to produce mutants of deeper color — Star Ruby, released in 1971, and Rio Red, released in 1985. The mutant offspring now account for about 75 percent of all grapefruit grown in Texas.​

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/28/science/28crop.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

So I think we should be cautious in our use of these techniques, but optimistically so in light of the successes that have been demonstrated both in previous decades and in our present day, for example:

Organic farming systems permit food from mutated varieties to be sold as organic. In the United States many varieties have been developed using induced mutagenesis, such as lettuce, beans, grapefruit, rice, oats, and wheat. The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations/ International Atomic Energy Agency Mutant Cultivar Database (FAO/IAEA, 2001) lists more than 2,200 varieties of various species worldwide that have been developed using induced mutagenesis agents, including ionizing irradiation and ethyl methane sulfonate.​

The NAS further states that "there do not appear to be outstanding examples of mutant varieties with documented unexpected effects beyond what the mutant was selected for, despite the expectation that mutant varieties may possess and generate more unexpected outcomes than ordinary crosses because of the unpredictable and uncontrollable nature of nontargeted mutations. Furthermore, there do not appear to be any examples in which mutant varieties were removed from the market due to unintended or unexpected adverse incidents." (Source: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10977&page=45 )
 

1God4all

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That's false. For decades it was thought that mutating plants and then using artificial selection would improve variety. Millions of plants were mutated...resulting in billions of weak deformed plants. Most geneticists no longer use this method of 'evolution on steroids' since it doesn't work.

Do you know how corn plants came about?
 
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