Paul’s false doctrine of everyone is a sinner

[glorydaz]

And how about Acts 25:7-8

Acts 25:7-8 (HCSB)
7 When he arrived, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood around him and brought many serious charges that they were not able to prove, 8 while Paul made the defense that, “Neither against the Jewish law, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I sinned at all.”

If the first reference wasn't clear enough for you, this one does it for me.

You're still talking about breaking the Jewish Law or the law of Caesar.....both referring to the "acts"...outward acts that result in law breaking. Once again, when Jesus came, he made it clear that our very thoughts and intentions, lusts, and pride were how all men sin and come short of the glory of God.

 

[glorydaz]

I have no problem with what vs 1-3 says. Psalm 14:1-7 is describing two classes of people, the fool\atheist\evil doer as compared to God’s people, described as the righteous (current tense used). The point is, Psalm 14 is teaching at the basic level that there are two classes of people, the sinner and the righteous. Paul teaches there is only one class of people, the sinner.

This shows otherwise, wouldn't you say?

1 TIM. 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,​

Quoting Ps 14:1-3, and ignoring Ps 14:4-7 which if he had mentioned, would have disproven the point he was making, that there is only one class of people, sinners. In vs 10-12 he is describing the sinner, but not the righteous ones and their characteristics in vs 4-7.


Paul teaches there is only one class of people, the sinner. I say he is purposely taking the OT text out of context. Let me give you an example of what I am trying to get across here:

Each OT text he quoted from has both of these different separate groups of people in it. But for some reason, he never mentions the fact that both of those people classes exist in the scripture he is quoting from.

So, is it an honest use of the underlying texts to teach that there is only one class of people, when the texts say something other than what you’re teaching? I call this dishonest, and if anyone did that other than Paul, you would say they were taking it out of context.

Ah, but all Jews understood what those Psalms were saying. Throughout the entire Bible, there is always two groups of people ....the righteous and the unrighteous. The saint and the sinner. From the very beginning you will read about those who believed in God and those "fools" who say there is no God.

Paul wasn't trying to "fool" anyone by quoting the OT. He quoted it and those who he quoted it to understood exactly what he was talking about because there have always been believers (righteous) and unbelievers (unrighteous). If you read those verses as if it wasn't known, then I can see how you might think Paul was withholding some important fact.

What Paul is doing is leading up to the ways a man can be justified. He's taking the reader down a path from Genesis to the Cross and beyond. No intent there to lead anyone astray.

 

[glorydaz]

[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION]

On the matter of affirming the Trinity...



Dad...Prov. 22:6....sigh.

Son...rightly divide, especially the Old Testament:

Spoiler

To substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity, six and only six points need to be demonstrated from Scripture:

1. There is only one true God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is a Person (see discussion of “person” below).
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct subsistences from each other.

1. There is only one true God:

OT: Exod 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; Deut 4:35,39; 6:4; 10:14; 32:39; 33:26; Josh 2:11; 1Sam 2:2; 2Sam 7:22; 1Ki 8:23,60; 2Ki 5:15;1Chr 16:26; 17:20; Neh 9:6; Ps 18:31; 71:19; 86:8-10; 96:5; 113:4f; Isa 37:16,20; 43:10f; 44:6,8; 45:5f,14,18,21f; 46:5,9f; Jer 10:6-10; Hos 13:4; Zech 14:9; Mal 2:10.

NT: Mark 12:29,32; John 5:44; 17:3; 1Cor 8:4-6; Gal 3:20; Eph 4:6; 1Tim 2:5.

2. The Father is God:

OT: Deut 32:6; Ps 89:26; Isa 63:16; 64:8; Mal 1:6; 2:10.

NT: Matt 6:9; John 6:27; 20:17; Rom 1:7; 1Cor 1:3; Eph 1:2; 4:6; 5:20; 6:23; Phil 1:2; 2:11; 4:20; Col 1:2; 3:17; 1Thes 1:1,3; 3:11,13; 2Thes 1:1f; 2:16; 1Tim 1:2; Phlm 1:3; Jude 1:1.

3. The Son is God:

A) Called God or Ascribed Deity:

OT: Gen 19:24; Ps 45:7; Isa 7:14; 9:6; Jer 23:5f; Zech 2:8-3:2; 12:1,10

NT: Matt 1:22f; John 1:1; 5:18; 20:28; Acts 20:28; Rom 8:9; 9:5; Phil 2:5-9; Col 2:9; 1Tim 3:16; Titus 2:13; Heb 1:3,8-12; 2Pet 1:1; 1John 5:20.

B) Possess the Attributes of God.

1) Personal: All of Jesus’ interactions with people in the Gospels are proof of His personhood (e.g, Matt 3:13-15; 4:18-22; 8:1-22; 9:1-38). Jesus is also specifically said to possess wisdom (Luke 2:52), a will (Luke 22:42), and a mind (1Cor 2:16; Phil 2:5).

2) Creator and Sustainer: John 1:3; Col 1:16f; Heb 1:2 (cp. Job 9:8; Isa 44:24).

3) Live Giver: John 1:4; 4:10-14; 5:21; 6:40, 44; 11:25; Acts 3:15; 1Cor 15:45; 1John 5:11; Rev 1:18.

4) Spirit/ Invisible: Not applicable due to the incarnation. Jesus now has a real physical body.

5) Omnipresent: Matt 18:20; 28:20; John 1:48; 3:13; Eph 1:22f; 4:10.

6) Omniscient: Matt 9:4; 11:27; 12:25; Mark 2:8; 12:15; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 9:47; 11:17; John 2:23-25; 4:16-18; 16:30; 21:17; Rev 2:23.

7) Knows the Future: Matt 16:21; 17:22f; 20:17-19,22f; 24:1-25; 26:21-25,31-35; Mark 8:31; 9:31; 13:1-23; 14:27-30,72; Luke 9:22,44; 18:31-33; 21:5-24; 22:10-13; John 2:19; 6:64,70f; 13:11,36-38; 21:18f.

8) Omnipotent: Matt 28:18; Phil 3:20f; Rev 1:8; 3:7.

9) Sovereign: Dan 7:13f; Matt 17:24-27; 28:18; Acts 10:36; Eph 1:20-22; Heb 1:3.

10) King over all the earth/ King of kings: Psalm 45:1-7; Dan 7:13f; Matt 25:34,40; John 18:37; Heb 1:8; Rev 11:15; 17:14; 19:16.

11) Lord of all the earth/ Lord of lords: Matt 11:27; Phil 2:9-11; Acts 10:36; Rom 10:12; Rev 17:14; 19:16.

12) God over all false gods/ God of gods: John 10:31-39; Acts 17:18,31; 1Cor 8:5f.

13) Incomprehensible: Matt 11:27; Eph 3:19.

14) Eternal (The First and the Last/ The Alpha and Omega/ The Beginning and End): Isa 9:6; Micah 5:2; John 1:1; 17:5,24; Col 1:17; Heb 1:8,10f; 7:3; Rev 1:8,11,17f; 2:8; 11:15; 22:12-16.

15) Self-Existent (I Am/ The Living God): I Am! Matt 14:27; Mark 6:50; 14:62; John 6:20; 8:24,58; 13:19; 18:5f,8 (Note: Some versions have “It is I” in these verses, but the literal phrase is “I Am!”) Other: John 5:26; 1Cor 15:45.

16) Immutable/ Faithful/ Worthy of Trust: Phil 2:24; 1Thes 5:24; 2Thes 3:3; 2Tim 2:13; Heb 1:8-12; 2:17; 3:2; 10:23; 13:8; Rev 3:14,17; 19:11.

17) Perfect/ Incomparable/ Awesome/ Great: Judg 13:6; Luke 13:32; John 6:68; Heb 2:10; 5:9; 12:2; 2Pet 1:16 (cp. Luke 9:43).

18) Good/ Goodness: John 7:12; 10:32; Acts 10:38; Eph 2:7.

19) Holy: Josh 5:13-15 (cp, Exod 3:5); Isa 53:9; Matt 26:59f; Luke 5:8; John 8:46; 2Cor 5:21; Heb 4:15; 7:26; Rev 1:17.

20) Righteous and Just: Zech 9:9; Matt 12:20; 27:19,24; Luke 18:8; 23:47; John 5:20; 7:18; Acts 3:14; 22:14; 1Cor 1:30; 1Tim 3:16; 2Tim 4:8; Heb 1:9; 1Pet 3:18; 2Pet 1:1; 1John 1:9; 2:29; 19:11.

21) Truth: Matt 22:16; Mark 12:14,32; John 1:14,17; 7:18; 8:40,45f; 14:6; 18:37; 2Cor 11:10; Eph 4:21; 1John 5:20; Rev 3:7,14; 19:11.

22) Light: Matt 4:16; 17:2; 24:27; Luke 1:78f; 2:32; 17:24; John 1:4,9; 3:19-21; 8:12; 9:5; 12:35f,46; Acts 9:3f; 22:6-11; 26:12-18; Eph 5:14; Rev 21:23.

23) Judge: Ps 2:7-9; Matt 16:27; 25:31-46 [cp. Ezek 34:17]; John 5:22-27; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom 2:16; 1Cor 4:5; 2Cor 5:10f; Eph 6:8; 2Tim 4:1,8; Jam 5:9; 1Pet 4:5; Rev 2:23; 19:11.

24) Fire: Matt 3:10-12; Luke 3:16f; 2Thes 1:7f; Rev 1:14 (cp. Dan 7:9); 19:12.

25) Wrath: Ps 2:12; Rev 6:15-17; 19:15.

26) Grace, Mercy, Compassion, and Love: Matt 9:36; 14:14; 15:32; 20:28,34; Mark 1:41; 6:34; 8:2; Luke 7:13; John 1:14,17; 13:1; 15:9-13; Acts 15:11; Rom 5:21; 8:35; 16:20; 1Cor 16:23; 2Cor 5:14; 13:14; Gal 6:18; Eph 3:19; Phil 4:23; 1Thes 5:28; 2Thes 3:18; 1Tim 1:2; 2Tim 1:2,18; Tit 1:4; Phlm 1:25; 2John 1:3; Jude 1:21; Rev 22:21.

27) Forgives Sin: Mark 2:5-11; Luke 7:47-50; Col 3:13; Jam 5:15.

28) Redeems/ Redeemer: Rom 3:24; 1Cor 1:30 Gal 3:13; 4:4f; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; Titus 2:14; Heb 9:12-15; 1Pet 1:18f; Rev 5:9; 14:3f.

29) Saves/ Savior: Zech 9:9; Matt 1:21; 18:11; Luke 2:11; 9:56; 19:10; John 3:17; 4:42; 10:9; 5:34; 12:47; Acts 2:47; 4:12; 5:31; 13:23;16:30f; Rom 5:9f; 10:8-13; Eph 5:23; Phil 3:20; 1Tim 1:15; 2Tim 1:10; 2:10; 3:15; Titus 1:4; 2:13; 3:6; Heb 2:10; 7:25; 9:28; 2Pet 1:1,11; 2:20; 3:2,15; 1John 4:14; Rev 7:10; 9:28; 2Pet 1:1,11; 2:20; 3:2,15; 1John 4:14; Rev 7:10.

30) Rock: Rom 9:33; 1Cor 10:4; 1Pet 2:7f.

31) Shepherd: Mic 5:4; Matt 25:32; John 10:11,14-16; Heb 13:20; 1Peter 2:25; 5:4; Rev 7:16f.

32) Father: Not applicable as Jesus is the Son, not the Father.

33) Glorious/ Wonderful: Judg 13:18; Isa 4:2; 9:6; 11:10; Matt 21:15; 25:31; Luke 13:17; Titus 2:13.

34) Hears and Answers Prayer: John 14:13f; Acts 7:59f; 2Cor 12:8f; 1John 5:13-15; Rev 5:8 (cp. 8:4).

35) Worthy of Worship and All Praise: Josh 5:13f; Matt 14:33; 21:9,16f; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; Phil 2:10f; 2Tim 4:18; Heb 1:6; 2Peter 3:18; Rev 5:8-14. While it is true that some of these attributes could be said about people or angels, no person or angel possesses almost all of them as Jesus Christ does. Thus putting all of them together is strong proof Jesus is fully God.

C) Additional Attributes of Deity:
Controls the weather: Matt 14:30-33; Mark 4:36-41; (cp. Job 38:25-38; Ps 135:7).
Gives commandments: Matt 5:27f,31-48 (cp. Exod 20:1-17).
Fills the hungry soul: John 6:48-51 (cp. Ps 107:9).
Receives sacred service (Gr., latreuo): Rev 22:3 (cp. Matt 4:10).

D) Theophanies = Christophanies:
The NT teaches no on can see God (John 1:18; 6:46). But people did see the Lord in the OT (e.g., Isa 6:1-8). Appearances of the Lord in the OT are actually appearances of God the Son (John 12:37,41). It is God the Father that people cannot see (1Tim 6:16).

E) The Angel of the Lord and the Lord:
In the OT, the Angel of the Lord is both distinct from the Lord and identified with Him. The appearances of the Angel of the Lord are appearances of the pre-incarnate Christ.

Distinct subsistences (“persons”): 2Sam 24:16f; 1Chr 21:15f,27; Zech 1:12. Same Person: Gen 22:1f,11f,15f; Gen 28:10-22 (cp. 31:11-13); 48:15f (Note: “bless” is singular). Exod 3:2,4 Exod 13:21; 14:19. Exod 20:1f; Deut 1:6-8; Judg 2:1-4; Judg 2:1-4; Judg 6:11-21 (cp. vv.11f with v.14) Judg 13:21f. Hosea 12:3-5.

F) God and the Lamb: In the Revelation, God and the Lamb are distinct and from each other yet identified with each other. Rev 7:10,17; 21:22f; 22:1,3 (cp. Isa 60:19f).

G) OT Passages in NT:
Passages in the OT referring to God are quoted or alluded to in the NT as referring to the Son. Ps 8:2 / Matt 21:16. Ps 102:25-27 / Heb 1:10-12. Ps 130:8 / Matt 1:21. Isa 26:19; 60:1 / Eph 5:14. Isa 40:3/ Matt 3:3 Isa 43:10 / Acts 1:8. Isa 45:23 / Phil 2:10. Jer 2:13; 17:13 / John 4:13f; 7:37. Jer 9:24 / 2Cor 10:17f. Jer 17:10 / Rev 2:23. Joel 2:32 / Rom 10:13. Mal 3:1 / Mark 1:2.

4. The Holy Spirit is a Person capable of thought, will, and interaction with others.

A) Has a mind and a will. Rom 8:27; 1Cor 12:11.

B) Acts 13:1-5: Speaks, commands, and calls: verse 2. Refers to Himself with personal pronouns: “to Me” and “I” - verse 2. Sends out missionaries: verse 4.

C) Elsewhere in the Book of Acts:
Inspires Scripture: Acts 1:16.
Is lied to: Acts 5:3.
Bears witness: Acts 5:32.
Instructs: Acts 8:29.
Comforts: Acts 9:31.
Tells and sends: Acts 10:19f; 11:12.
Knows what is good: Acts 15:28.
Forbids: Acts 16:6f.
Testifies: Acts 20:23.
Appoints church officers: Acts 20:28.
Prophesies: Acts 28:25.

D) Elsewhere in the Bible:
Hovers: Gen 1:2 (cp. Deut 32:11).
Speaks: 2Sam 23:2; Ezek 2:2-3:14,24ff; 11:5-12; John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 21:11; 28:25; 1Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7; Rev 2:7,11,17,29; 3:1,6,13,22; 14:13; 22:17.
Gives plans: 1Chr 28:11f.
Instructs: Neh 9:20.
Sends: Isa 48:16; Ezek 2:2f.
Grieves: Isa 63:10; Eph 4:30.
Inspires Scripture: Zech 7:12; 2Pet 1:21.
Leads: Matt 4:1; Mark 1:12; Luke 4:1; Rom 8:14.
Speaks for believers: Matt 10:19f.
Can be blasphemed: Matt 12:31f; Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10.
Teaches: Luke 12:12; John 14:26.
Witnesses: John 15:26; Heb 10:15-17; Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1John 5:6.
Assures, leads, bears witness, and enables: Rom 8:14-17.
Helps and makes intercession: Rom 8:26f (cp. v.34; 1Tim 2:5).
Loves: Rom 15:30.
Searches: 1Cor 2:10f.
Justifies: 1Cor 6:11.
Gives gifts: 1Cor 12:8-11; Heb 2:4.
Fellowships: 2Cor 13:14; Phil 2:1.
Reveals: Eph 3:5.
Instructs: 1Tim 4:1; Heb 9:8.
Is insulted: Heb 10:29.
Commands: Rev 22:17.

E) John 14:16: The Spirit is “another Counselor” (allos parakletos) besides Jesus (1John 2:1; the Greek word is also parakletos). Note also, allos indicates another of the same kind. It is distinct from heteros, which indicators another of a different kind (e.g., Gal 1:6f, “different” in v. 6 is heteros, “another” in v. 7 is allos). Since Jesus is a Person, the Holy Spirit must be of the same kind and thus a Person also.

5. The Holy Spirit is God:

A) Equated with God: Exod 29:45f; Haggai 2:5. 2Sam 23:2f Acts 5:3,4. Rom 5:5; 2Thes 3:5. 1Cor 12:6,11,18. 2Cor 3:17f.

B) Possesses the Attributes of God:

1) Personal: See previous section.

2) Creator: Gen 1:2b; Job 26:13; Ps 104:30.

3) Live Giver: Gen 2:7; Job 27:3; 33:4; Rom 8:2,11; 1Pet 3:18.

4) Spirit/ Invisible: Self-evident.

5) Omnipresent: Numb 11:25f; Ps 139:7-10; Joel 2:28f; John 3:34; Acts 4:31; 5:32; 8:15-17; 10:44; 19:6; Rom 5:5; 8:9; 1Cor 3:16; 6:19; Gal 4:6; 2Tim 1:14.

6) Omniscient: Isa 43:10; 1Cor 2:10f.

7) Knows the Future: Luke 2:26; John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 11:28; 20:22f; 21:11,33; 1Tim 4:1; 1Pet 1:11.

8) Omnipotent: Luke 1:35-37; Rom 15:19.

9) Eternal: Heb 9:14.

10) Good/ Goodness: Neh 9:20; Ps 143:10.

11) Holy: “Holy Spirit” appears 95 times. See also Rom 1:4.

12) Truth: John 14:17; 15:26; 16:13; 1John 5:6.

13) Fire: Acts 2:3f; Rev 4:5.

14) Grace, Mercy, Compassion, and Love: Zech 12:10; Heb 10:29.

15) Glorious/ Wonderful: 2Cor 3:8; 1Peter 4:14.

16) Hears and Answers Prayer: Rom 8:26f; Eph 6:18; Jude 1:20. The number of attributes of God ascribed to the Spirit is not as all-encompassing as for the Son, but number is still significant and sufficient to establish His deity.

C) Additional Attributes of God:
Calls into ministry: Acts 13:2; 20:28.
Inspires Scripture: Zech 7:12; 2Pet 1:20f; Rev 2:7.
Gives eternal life: John 3:3-8; Titus 3:5.

D) The Temple of God = The Temple of the Holy Spirit:
The bodies of Christians are described as being the temple of God and as being the temple of the Holy Spirit since we are filled with the Holy Spirit, who is God. 1Cor 3:16; 6:19; 2Cor 6:16; Eph 3:19; 5:18.

E) The Spirit's Words are Equated with God's Words: Lev 16:1-34 / Heb 9:7f. Isa 6:9f / Acts 28:25-27. Jer 31:33f / Heb 10:15f.

6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct from each other:

A) In the OT:
Gen 1:1-3,26f; 11:7; 19:24; Neh 9:20; Ps 2:1-9; Prov 30:4; Isa 6:8; 48:16; 63:11; Dan 7:13f; Zech 2:8-3:2.

B) In the Gospels:
Matt 3:16; 4:1,6; 11:25-27; 12:32f; 14:23; 16:16f; 17:5; 22:44; 26:39,42; 27:46; 28:18f; Mark 1:1,8; 12:36; 13:32; 15:34; 16:19; Luke 4:18; 6:12; 11:13; 20:42f; 23:34,46; John 1:1f; 3:16-18,34-36; 5:19-23,26f,30f,36-38,43-45; 6:27,37-46; 8:17f; 11:41f: 13:1; 14:6,16f,23-31; 15:26; 16:13-16,25-28,32; 17:1-28; 20:17,21f.

C) In the Book of Acts:
2:22-36; 3:13-15,19f,26; 4:24-30; 7:55f; 10:34-42; 13:33-37; 15:8; 17:30f; 20:21.

D) In the Pauline Epistles:
Rom 1:1-9; 1Cor 1:1-9; 2:10f; 15:23-28; 2Cor 1:1-3; 2:14f; 3:3-6; 5:18-21; 13:14; Gal 1:1-5; 4:4-6; Eph 1:2-23; 2:1-10,18; 3:14-21; 4:4-6; 5:1f; 6:23; Phil 1:2,11; 2:5-11; Col 1:2f,19f; 2:2; 3:1; 1Thes 1:1,3; 4:8; 5:9; 2Thes 1:2; 2:13-17; 1Tim 1:1f; 2Tim 1:1f; 4:1; Tit 1:4; Phlm 1:3.

E) In the General Epistles and The Revelation:
Heb 1:1-9,13; 2:9,17; 5:5-10; 7:25; 9:14,24; 10:5-13; 12:2; 13:20f; Jam 1:1; 1Pet 1:1-3,17-21; 2:4-6; 3:18,22; 5:10; 1John 1:3,7; 2:1; 4:7-10; 5:6,11; 2John 1:3,9; Jude 1:1,20f; Rev 1:1-6; 5:9f,13; 21:22f; 22:1,17.

A steadfast denial of the Triune Godhead leaves no man warrant to claim he is a believer. Below the fold you go, young sir. :AMR:

AMR

Dear Sir.....don't jump so hard and so fast. Not everyone knows the right words to describe what they believe and their focus is not always where you would want it to be.

 

[freelight]

Points to consider.......

Points to consider.......

My father asked me to either join in on one of his threads or start my own. I’m doing this more as a check on my own beliefs than me trying to tell anyone they are wrong. I’m hoping my Dad and I can have some insightful discussion, and I may even learn something new.

My father is JerryShugart, If you have been on the Forums for any length of time, I’m sure you are aware of his beliefs. I would not call myself Christian, closest category I would place myself into is; Hebrew. My canon differs greatly from yours, as I reject most of the NT as inspired, and I reject all of Paul’s writings. Just giving you a heads up on where I’m coming from.

However, choosing Paul’s false teachings as my topic is bound to step on people’s toes, as Paul is the founder of modern Christianity. So please understand, I am not attacking you personally, I’m just pointing out things as I see them. I will try and be polite, but I have been called “snarky” in the past. I’m mainly posting here because my father asked me too (Ex 20:12).

Acts 17:10-11 has the basis from which I examine the entire NT. I compare what Paul has to say to the OT Scriptures, as he claims his teachings can all be found there. So I exhort you to use only the OT texts to prove to me Paul’s doctrine. I say it can’t be done, because he didn’t base his doctrine on OT Scripture.

I’m choosing this topic, because I honestly am looking for truth, no matter the cost. So if I’m wrong on this, I want to be shown where I’m wrong, so I can correct my views.

Whenever someone misquotes the bible, or takes a scripture out of context or outright says the Word says one thing, when it actually says something 180 degrees difference…. This person should be shown the error of their way and let everyone see it for what it was. So why is it any different when Paul does it?

The primary false doctrine of Paul is that we are all sinners, every last one of us, there is no one that is not considered a sinner. (Rom 3:23)

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. “ HCSB Rom 3:23

Of course that goes against what Jesus said in Matt 7:21-23, but that never bothers Paul, he contradicts Jesus all the time, but that is a discussion for another time.

Paul here in Romans chapter 3, uses OT quotes to backup his new doctrine. Six different times Paul calls the reader to a different OT text to back up his doctrine that there are only wicked people in the world, no one that isn’t wicked. I’ll list them here:

1.Rom 3:10-12 (quote from Psalm 14:1-3)
2.Rom 3:13a (quote from Psalm 5:9)
3.Rom 3:13b (quote from Psalm 140:3)
4.Rom 3:14 (quote from Psalm 10:7)
5.Rom 3:15-17 (quote from Isaiah 59:7-8)
6.Rom 3:18 (quote from Psalm 36:1)

No one debates these quotes. The problem though, is with the fact that those scriptures he is quoting from, don’t show that there are only wicked people in the earth. In each case, the scripture actually shows just the opposite, that there are in fact two classes of people, the wicked and the righteous. But thankfully the Romans didn’t know the OT, so it was OK for Paul to deceive them, because the ends justify the means in Paul’s philosophy (1 Cor 9:19-25).

Here is the list of the Scriptures that were overlooked and not quoted by Paul, because they would have disproved the point he was trying to deceive the Romans about. Did Paul not know the rest of the Scriptures, was this an honest mistake? Paul claimed to be a Rabbi's Rabbi, so he did know the Scripture and was purposefully deceiving the reader, or he lied and was not real Rabbi, and therefor maybe he didn't know he was misquoting all those Scriptures and teaching against what the Word of God has to say. Is there a third option?

1.Psalm 14:4-7
2.Psalm 5: 9-10 vs 11-12
3.Psalm 140:4, 8, 12, 13
4.Psalm 10:8
5.Isaiah 59:15, 20 and Isaiah 57:1-2, 21
6.Psalm 36:10

Read them in context, and not just the one reference from Paul.

Since I have shown these source texts of Paul’s to be exactly the opposite, they actually disprove Paul’s doctrine. So, does anyone else have any OT scriptures that show what Paul was trying to prove, that there are only one class of people, sinners, no one is in a group called Righteous.

I could not find anything on my own, but maybe a crowd source can help me find them. My assumption is that they don't exist, because if they did, Paul would have referenced them instead of trying to lie to us with misrepresented Scripture quotes.

Remember, please keep it to OT text.

Hi Jack,

I've been engaging discussion with your father in 3-4 threads on similar subjects (see first 4 links in this post here if interested. They are mostly Unitarian/Trinitarian counterpoints, debate over whether Jesus is 'God', Christological issues, etc....all that fun stuff ) , so getting to know his methodology, with some extra hints from your own posts. Yes,...a few challenges there

I would like to make a few points on your proposition. As noted by some earlier, Paul does teach elsewhere that that there are both 'unrighteous' and 'righteous' groups of men, and is but emphasizing the severity of sin in his doctrine to show how great the grace of God is, that saves man in comparison. The very whole chapter of Rom. 3 in its greater context reveals both good and evil in man, and shows that man can by faith walk in the newness of the Spirit and live rightly thru the guidance of the Spirit of God within him. To be fair, wouldn't you have to examine all of Paul's letters to see if your proposition is in fact true thru-out? With that in mind, I do recognize some who have taken the ball and run with Paul's concept of 'adamic sin' to include some genetic passing on of a 'sin-nature' or thru the 'sex-act' as we see in an extreme case in Augustine, then later parts of Paul's teaching on related sin issues (conceived as 'total depravity') and 'predestination' being honed in on by Calvin. (trust me, I'm no fan of TULIP). So all kinds of 'innovations' in theology could be had, by Paul's teaching concepts...under the umbrella of 'original sin'. - BTW, a good reading on this subject is - Are Men Born Sinners? The Myth of Original Sin by Alfred T. Overstreet.

I would agree that James 'appears' to define justification before God via works differently than Paul's emphasis of justification by faith thru 'grace',...but some may emphasize difference over agreements in other areas. If you're coming from a more traditional-orthodox Jewish perspective on what qualifies as 'righteousness', you may have issues with Paul's treatment of the law and other peculiarities, - his synthesis of greek philosophical, gnostic and mystery religion concepts and memes, woven together with his own personal revelations begetting his own unique 'gospel'. Paul is an enigma in himself and his gospel, as it compares with Jesus gospel and the teachings of the original 12 apostles. While I find some of Paul's allegorical and spiritual teachings in sync and harmony with universal spiritual laws and archetypes,...there as some aspects I do not necessarily agree with or find less useful. It appears your affiliation as a 'Messianic Jew' may grant you fondness with Jesus but maybe some suspicion with Paul, but some messianic groups manage to 'incorporate' Paul just fine into their theology, others wholly reject him.

As a student of religious philosophy and comparative religions, I find him most fascinating....which makes one wonder if he was really a genuine apostle of Jesus (by way of an actual encounter with the risen Lord) or a religious opportunist of some kind, having perhaps some sincere desire to serve God, but innovating his own religion more or less, with himself as the 'star apostle'. While the book of Acts shows some favor towards Paul, that would be reasonable granting Luke being one of his companions showing Paul in a good or redeeming light, but further study by other scholars see more underlying problems and conflicts that the original apostles had with Paul, which some passages in Acts in his own letters such as to the Galations reveal. Also 2 Peter that some quote as endorsing Paul's letters to the near status of 'scripture' may not hold much weight seeing that it is 'pseudographical'. There are other problems with Paul perceived from different angles, (which we have had threads on) but I don't know where you are on the spectrum of these issues at this time.

> Bet Emet Ministries has some good research on Paul here :sherlock:

> A more critical look at Paul and Christianity here (from an atheist POV, but well researched)

I summary, in re-reading your OP above, Paul obviously only used OT scripture when he was trying to teach or relate certain concepts or religious teaching to support his doctrine or expand on an allegory thereby. I don't think he intentionally misquoted all passages on purpose in so much as just use those parts that were profitable to the points he was making. You've heard of 'cherry-picking?' - in other areas I agree with you,.....actually repenting of your sins and DOING RIGHT, is the way,....so 'repentance' is essential, it is key. You have to change your mind and ways in order to be considered righteous, since it is righteousness (right standing with God and your fellowman) that obviously makes one's righteous,....the condition of not breaking any law, living in harmony with your own conscience and the universal laws of nature or 'God' IS the way to live. Any breaking or deviation from divine law...or love (which is the fulfilling of the law)...is more or less 'sin'. All the blood sacrifices in the world, even by an angel or god-man cannot wash the conscience or sins of man, unless he takes responsibility for his own actions and REPENTS of his evil ways, re-turning to 'God' (yes there is a psychic and spiritual transformation that takes place in repentance). So the concept of 'blood-atonement' I do not accept at certain levels, although the symbology of blood and the act of sacrifice have deeper meaning-applications, but these mostly apply to one's own sacrifice of 'self' upon the altar of God, the true surrender to God and his law, but this in the most intimate spiritual way, becoming one with God in Spirit.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I would agree that James 'appears' to define justification before God via works differently than Paul's emphasis of justification by faith thru 'grace',...but some may emphasize difference over agreements in other areas.

James is not speaking of justification before God in the second chapter of his epistle. Instead, he is speaking of what people can know about another's faith:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:18).​

None of the Jews will be saved by works because if one of them breaks just one of the commandments they are "guilty of all":

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all"​

(Jas.2:10).​

Being guilty of all will save no one. In the first chapter of the same epistle James tells us exactly how one is saved:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).​

When a person is born of God then he is saved so those who believe the word of truth are saved, apart from works.

The Lord Jesus also made it plain that salvsation comes as a result of "faith":

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

The Apostle Paul also taught the same thing, as witnessed by the answer given here by him and those with him:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16;30-31).​

 

[Squeaky]

My father asked me to either join in on one of his threads or start my own. I’m doing this more as a check on my own beliefs than me trying to tell anyone they are wrong. I’m hoping my Dad and I can have some insightful discussion, and I may even learn something new.

My father is JerryShugart, If you have been on the Forums for any length of time, I’m sure you are aware of his beliefs. I would not call myself Christian, closest category I would place myself into is; Hebrew. My canon differs greatly from yours, as I reject most of the NT as inspired, and I reject all of Paul’s writings. Just giving you a heads up on where I’m coming from.

However, choosing Paul’s false teachings as my topic is bound to step on people’s toes, as Paul is the founder of modern Christianity. So please understand, I am not attacking you personally, I’m just pointing out things as I see them. I will try and be polite, but I have been called “snarky” in the past. I’m mainly posting here because my father asked me too (Ex 20:12).

Acts 17:10-11 has the basis from which I examine the entire NT. I compare what Paul has to say to the OT Scriptures, as he claims his teachings can all be found there. So I exhort you to use only the OT texts to prove to me Paul’s doctrine. I say it can’t be done, because he didn’t base his doctrine on OT Scripture.

I’m choosing this topic, because I honestly am looking for truth, no matter the cost. So if I’m wrong on this, I want to be shown where I’m wrong, so I can correct my views.

Whenever someone misquotes the bible, or takes a scripture out of context or outright says the Word says one thing, when it actually says something 180 degrees difference…. This person should be shown the error of their way and let everyone see it for what it was. So why is it any different when Paul does it?

The primary false doctrine of Paul is that we are all sinners, every last one of us, there is no one that is not considered a sinner. (Rom 3:23)

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. “ HCSB Rom 3:23

Of course that goes against what Jesus said in Matt 7:21-23, but that never bothers Paul, he contradicts Jesus all the time, but that is a discussion for another time.

Paul here in Romans chapter 3, uses OT quotes to backup his new doctrine. Six different times Paul calls the reader to a different OT text to back up his doctrine that there are only wicked people in the world, no one that isn’t wicked. I’ll list them here:

1.Rom 3:10-12 (quote from Psalm 14:1-3)
2.Rom 3:13a (quote from Psalm 5:9)
3.Rom 3:13b (quote from Psalm 140:3)
4.Rom 3:14 (quote from Psalm 10:7)
5.Rom 3:15-17 (quote from Isaiah 59:7-8)
6.Rom 3:18 (quote from Psalm 36:1)

No one debates these quotes. The problem though, is with the fact that those scriptures he is quoting from, don’t show that there are only wicked people in the earth. In each case, the scripture actually shows just the opposite, that there are in fact two classes of people, the wicked and the righteous. But thankfully the Romans didn’t know the OT, so it was OK for Paul to deceive them, because the ends justify the means in Paul’s philosophy (1 Cor 9:19-25).

Here is the list of the Scriptures that were overlooked and not quoted by Paul, because they would have disproved the point he was trying to deceive the Romans about. Did Paul not know the rest of the Scriptures, was this an honest mistake? Paul claimed to be a Rabbi's Rabbi, so he did know the Scripture and was purposefully deceiving the reader, or he lied and was not real Rabbi, and therefor maybe he didn't know he was misquoting all those Scriptures and teaching against what the Word of God has to say. Is there a third option?

1.Psalm 14:4-7
2.Psalm 5: 9-10 vs 11-12
3.Psalm 140:4, 8, 12, 13
4.Psalm 10:8
5.Isaiah 59:15, 20 and Isaiah 57:1-2, 21
6.Psalm 36:10

Read them in context, and not just the one reference from Paul.

Since I have shown these source texts of Paul’s to be exactly the opposite, they actually disprove Paul’s doctrine. So, does anyone else have any OT scriptures that show what Paul was trying to prove, that there are only one class of people, sinners, no one is in a group called Righteous.

I could not find anything on my own, but maybe a crowd source can help me find them. My assumption is that they don't exist, because if they did, Paul would have referenced them instead of trying to lie to us with misrepresented Scripture quotes.

Remember, please keep it to OT text.

I said
Your honesty is very refreshing. But if you look for the truth in a place you cant find truth. You will never know the truth. There is a veil over the old testament that remains to this day. If you are looking for the truth you must look in the book of truth. The reason Jesus came was because of that veil over the old testament that remains to this day.

Gal 2:21
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
(NKJ)

John 10:1-8
1 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 "And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
5 "Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.
7 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
(NKJ)

2 Cor 3:7-15
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech--
13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
(NKJ)

 

[Crucible]

Paul’s false doctrine

:banned:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

AMR,

When you claim God is one being of Father Son and Holy ghost then you deny Jesus of Nazareth.

Are you sure you are a trinitarian or are you a modelist.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

My father asked me to either join in on one of his threads or start my own. I’m doing this more as a check on my own beliefs than me trying to tell anyone they are wrong. I’m hoping my Dad and I can have some insightful discussion, and I may even learn something new.

.

Hi Jack,

Jesus led His disciples to be so and preach the filling of the Holy Spirit.

I do not think your father jerry teaches anything about it, but if he had it then he would.

Perhaps you see the errors of your fathers teachings, yet still do not see the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles correctly.

I advise bypassing all the teachings of men and just seek the Lord yourself for--

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

LA

 

[Right Divider]

My canon differs greatly from yours, as I reject most of the NT as inspired, and I reject all of Paul’s writings. Just giving you a heads up on where I’m coming from.

Oh goody, another one that is smarter than everyone else.

 

[Right Divider]

And how about Acts 25:7-8

Acts 25:7-8 (HCSB)
7 When he arrived, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood around him and brought many serious charges that they were not able to prove, 8 while Paul made the defense that, “Neither against the Jewish law, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I sinned at all.”

If the first reference wasn't clear enough for you, this one does it for me.

Paul is talking about THREE specific things THERE. Not that he never sinned at all without any qualifications.

Your logic is fallacious and that will lead you into all kinds of falsehoods.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Where did you get that?

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ryone-is-a-sinner/page4&p=4893001#post4893001