Open invite to Freak....

[Turbo]

Originally posted by ZroKewl
I know I'm just a little fly on the wall here... but didn't God punish David by killing David's son? (Sounds familiar...) But, God didn't punish Paul in the same way (or did he?).

--ZK

No problem, ZroKewl. I'll answer your question.

Yes, God killed David's son (who was produced through his adulterous affair with Bathsheba and gave him the motive to murder her husband Uriah).

No, it was not to punish David:

And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. 2 Samuel 12:13-14

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Turbo
I will offer another example of something that did not change between the Old and New Covenants: God’s holy nature. Jesus did not raise the bar. He was pointing out where the bar had been all along.

Yes, we know this. The Scriptures point to progressive revelation. In the New Covenant we see things clearer.

God did not become more holy during the intertestimal period.

:doh:

Also, you have stated that murderers should be punished with prison/hard labor. But although Paul spent time in prison, it had nothing to do with him being a murderer.

Okay.

If you were consistent, you would believe that since Paul was not punished whatsoever for murder, then the state should not punish murderers in any way. (Not even with prison/hard labor.)

Again, God is just, loving, merciful, etc....His ways supercede our ways.

He didn’t demand David be executed for murder. He didn’t demand Paul be executed for murder. How is that different?

God is just in dealing with people. Do you have a problem understanding something so basic as this?

Aside from the fact that this contradicts your previous statement, wouldn’t it be better to say that in these two situations God dealt mercifully?

He is graceful, loving, just, merciful, etc.....

Thank you for answering.

Your welcome.

God therefore granted Paul mercy, and did not require that he be put to death. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

You're getting closer, Turbo, to understanding that the death penalty is not endorsed in Holy Scripture.

That's why God tells governments to execute every convicted murderer.

A lie. The New Covenant does not endorse the state's use of the death penalty.

You want to lock them up like dogs whether they repent or not. That is neither just nor merciful.

Yes, criminals should be punished.

 

[drbrumley]

FREAK,

God, or God's prophets, or Jesus, but mostly God, commanded that criminals be put to death close to 100 times in the bible.

God commanded that you should surely put them to death, shall absolutely put them to death, you should not take a ransom for the life of a murderer, the Government must put them to death, over and over.

Liberals still debate whether or not the death penalty is a deterrent. They're so stupid (ha-ha)! They still haven't even figured that one out.

Someone called in and said that the death penalty is a maximum penalty and that we should show mercyNO, God COMMANDED that he should SURELY be put to death.

There is never a shortage of people who will perform the actual execution. Whoever does it does not matter. If there is a man who has raped and murdered three young women there is never a shortage of real men who will volunteer to execute the murderer. I'll do it; I'll pull the lever.

I don't have the exact statistics in front of me but in Singapore there are about 17 murders a year. In Los Angeles where Liberals run things, there are something like 1,000 deaths a year. The low death rate in Singapore is a direct result of their swift and severe capital punishment.

There were 24,000 murders in America in 1994.

[Responding to a charge that an innocent man might be accused of murder and put to death wrongly] Which is more likely: An innocent man wrongly charged for murder when there are 24,000 deaths a year or only a handful with good laws?

Courtesy of Enyart.com

In Christ,
DRBrumley

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by drbrumley
FREAK,

God, or God's prophets, or Jesus, but mostly God, commanded that criminals be put to death close to 100 times in the bible.

Yes, in the Old Covenant God wanted us to put to death those who were adulterers, children who were disrespectful, those who practiced witchcraft, along with those who murdered.

In the New Covenant, we see God extending mercy to those who practiced witchcraft, children who were disrespectful, adulterers, and the murderers.

Did you know not once did the New Covenant endorse the state's role in relation to the death penalty?

Liberals still debate whether or not the death penalty is a deterrent.

If it was a deterrent why hasn't murder vanished? The death penalty is not a deterrent but the Gospel does deter murderers.

There is never a shortage of people who will perform the actual execution. Whoever does it does not matter. If there is a man who has raped and murdered three young women there is never a shortage of real men who will volunteer to execute the murderer. I'll do it; I'll pull the lever.

Who else is eligible for the death penalty? Witches? Adulterers?

Courtesy of Enyart.com

In Christ,
DRBrumley

Courtsey of the New Covenant, a greater Covenant.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Freak
Did you know not once did the New Covenant endorse the state's role in relation to the death penalty?

You know that it does. We don't even need to tell you where.

Freak, did you know that not once in either Covenant did God endorse the state's role in imprisoning criminals as punishment?

If it was a deterrent why hasn't murder vanished?

Because we hardly ever use it. God tell us we must execute capital criminals swiftly and consistently to avoid a crime epidemic.

But actually, we shouldn't expect that murder would vanish. Only that it would be minimized.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Turbo
You know that it does. We don't even need to tell you where.

Where???

Freak, did you know that not once in either Covenant did God endorse the state's role in imprisoning criminals as punishment?

We're dealing with the issue of the death penalty. In regards to the issue of life and death (a paramount issue) the New Covenant does not endorse the role of the state to punish criminals via death.

Because we hardly ever use it.

We use it in Texas and murder continues to rise.

But actually, we shouldn't expect that murder would vanish. Only that it would be minimized.

I believe the Gospel is a greater solution, don't you?

 

[drbrumley]

Freak

Yes, in the Old Covenant God wanted us to put to death those who were adulterers, children who were disrespectful, those who practiced witchcraft, along with those who murdered.

Hmmmm, so what changed Freak?

You continue,

In the New Covenant, we see God extending mercy to those who practiced witchcraft, children who were disrespectful, adulterers, and the murderers.

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven,"

That's Jesus' own words my friend. Now tell me Freak, has all been fulfilled? Has heaven and earth passed away? Hardly. So the law still applies, doesn't it Freak? But not to us, to unbelievers!

Did you know not once did the New Covenant endorse the state's role in relation to the death penalty?

Oh really, so Jesus' right hand man to the Gentiles, our beloved brother Paul was wrong when he said,

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities... For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Rom. 13:1, 3
AND
For [the governing authority] is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Rom. 13:4

Paul instructs believers to "not avenge" themselves, "but rather give place to wrath." Governments are the place for wrath for they are "God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath." Individuals have one role, governments have another. Individuals do not avenge themselves, the government does. Believers forgive, governments execute. So, if the governing authorities are to obey God, they must not bear the sword in vain but execute. wrath on the criminal, for they are God’s minister to avenge and bring terror on him who practices evil. Thus God commanded execution in large part to meet out vengeance against capital criminals.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

 

[drbrumley]

Freak

In the New Covenant, we see God extending mercy to those who practiced witchcraft, children who were disrespectful, adulterers, and the murderers.

This Freak did not nullify God's law. Did it Freak?

Im borrowing this from Mr. Enyart, cause I couldn't have said it better.

The Woman Caught In Adultery

Does the story of the woman caught in adultery, forgiven and released (John 8:3-11) negate the death penalty?

God Forgave Adulterers Before

Gomer was an adulteress yet God forgave her (Hos. 3:1). Still, He demanded that His people obey His law (Hos. 4:6).

King David committed adultery and murder (2 Sam. 11). Yet God forgave him (Psalm 32:1-5).

It was a conscious decision on God’s part to not execute David. As Nathan said to David:

"The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. However… by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme…" 2 Sam. 12:13

Still, God’s law remained in effect (Ps. 1:2; 19:7; 78:1, 5-8; 89:30-32; 119).

God forgave the New Testament adulterer just as He forgave Old Testament adulterers, in neither instance revoking His law. God has all authority to forgive the criminal and disregard temporal punishment. Contrariwise, Men must obey God and cannot ignore punishment.

Look forward to your reply Freak.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Freak
The Old & New Covenants are two entirely different covenants--were you aware of this?

Originally posted by Turbo
Yes. But not everything changed. For example murder is a sin and a crime regardless of any Covenant that is in effect.

Originally posted by Freak
Apparently you're basic understanding of the Bible is not up to par...

Originally posted by Turbo
Why is it that I answered “Yes,” but you responded as though I had answered “No?”

I will offer another example of something that did not change between the Old and New Covenants: God’s holy nature. Jesus did not raise the bar. He was pointing out where the bar had been all along.

Originally posted by Freak
Yes, we know this.

Then I think you should apologize for telling me “Apparently you’re basic understanding of the Bible is not up to par” when I said that the Old and New Covenants are two entirely different covenants, but that not everything changed. I even gave examples with which you have agreed. I stated that “murder is a sin and a crime regardless of any Covenant that is in effect.” And you agree that murderers “should be punished.” I stated that God’s holy nature has not changed, and you stated, “Yes we know this.” So unless you can clarify how my original answer “Yes. But not everything changed” is wrong, I believe you owe me an apology for your remark.
________________________________________

Freak, before you said that “Jesus took the sin to another level. If you hate your brother you have committed murder.” I corrected you, saying “Jesus did not raise the bar. He was pointing out where the bar had been all along.” And you answer, “Yes, we know this.” You seem to have contradicted yourself, so I want to make sure we are very clear on this. When Jesus said compared hating your brother to murder, was he taking the sin to another level, or was it always a terrible sin to hate your brother without cause? Does the Old Testament condemn those who hate their brother without cause?

The Scriptures point to progressive revelation. In the New Covenant we see things clearer.

I agree. But ”no death penalty” is not a clearer version of “every murderer must surely be put to death.”

Originally posted by Turbo
Also, you have stated that murderers should be punished with prison/hard labor. But although Paul spent time in prison, it had nothing to do with him being a murderer.

Originally posted by Freak
Okay.

Are you agreeing with my point?

Originally posted by Turbo
If you were consistent, you would believe that since Paul was not punished whatsoever for murder, then the state should not punish murderers in any way. (Not even with prison/hard labor.)

Originally posted by Freak
Again, God is just, loving, merciful, etc....His ways supercede our ways.

That sounds like Christianese for “You’ve got me cornered.” Will you admit that you are inconsistent to use Paul’s case to condemn the death penalty but not to condemn other forms of punishment, like prison/hard labor?

Originally posted by Turbo
Why did God not demand that David be executed for murder, even though God's command to execute all murderers was certainly in effect at that time?

Originally posted by Freak
God dealt with people differently in both covenants.

Originally posted by Turbo
He didn’t demand David be executed for murder. He didn’t demand Paul be executed for murder. How is that different?

Originally posted by Freak
God is just in dealing with people. Do you have a problem understanding something so basic as this?

Maybe I misunderstood your first comment. When you said that “God dealt with people differently in both covenants,” what did you mean?
A) God dealt with people in the New Covenant differently than He dealt with people in the Old Covenant.
B) In the Old Covenant, God dealt with some people differently than with other people. Also in the New Covenant, God deals with some people differently than with other people.
C) Neither A nor B. What I meant was: __________________________________

Originally posted by Turbo
God therefore granted Paul mercy, and did not require that he be put to death. Sounds familiar [to what happened with David], doesn't it?

Originally posted by Freak
You're getting closer, Turbo, to understanding that the death penalty is not endorsed in Holy Scripture.

That’s an interesting way to respond when someone has totally dismantled your argument.

To summarize:

You state that since Paul was a murderer and God did not demand he be executed, that God has abolished the death penalty in the New Covenant.

But in the Old Covenant David was a murderer and God did not demand he be executed, yet you do not argue that God abolished the death penalty in the Old Covenant. If it were true for Paul’s case, it would be true for David’s as well.

Also, it is clear that the reason God spared both Paul and David was because they repented, yet you believe that all murderers’ lives should be spared regardless of whether they repent.

Finally, you support punishing murderers by locking them up and forcing them to work. Yet God did not punish Paul (or David) whatsoever. If you believe that governments should deal with all murderers the same way God dealt with Paul, you should be consistently opposed to all means of punishing murderers. Furthermore, God never authorized governments to use imprisonment as a means to punish criminals in either the Old or the New Testaments.


Freak, based on what we have been discussing on this thread, I do not think you can continue to use this particular argument (that Paul being forgiven shows that God has abolished the death penalty) without being dishonest.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Turbo
Freak, before you said that “Jesus took the sin to another level.

Yes, Jesus Christ, the mediator of the superior Covenant revealed elements that was not revealed in the Old Covenant.

what did you mean?
A) God dealt with people in the New Covenant differently than He dealt with people in the Old Covenant.
B) In the Old Covenant, God dealt with some people differently than with other people. Also in the New Covenant, God deals with some people differently than with other people.
C) Neither A nor B.

God dealt with people differently in the Old & New Covenants. This is not difficult to understand.

That’s an interesting way to respond when someone has totally dismantled your argument.

You haven't dismantled my position. Quite the contrary, you have yet to prove that in the New Covenant the death penalty is endorsed (the state's sanction of such).

You state that since Paul was a murderer and God did not demand he be executed, that God has abolished the death penalty in the New Covenant.

Christ did not call for the death penalty because under the New Covenant the death penalty was not endorsed (the state's sanction of such).

But in the Old Covenant David was a murderer and God did not demand he be executed.

Because God is just. God does whatever He pleases. His ways are not our ways.

...yet you do not argue that God abolished the death penalty in the Old Covenant.

God used the death penalty under the Old Covenant but was just with David.

If it were true for Paul’s case, it would be true for David’s as well.

These men lived under two different covenants. Were you aware of this?

.... yet you believe that all murderers’ lives should be spared regardless of whether they repent.

I believe the Gospel is a better solution then the death penalty. What do you think? I believe the New Covenant teaches this truth too.

Furthermore, God never authorized governments to use imprisonment as a means to punish criminals in either the Old or the New Testaments.

Look, this is a non-essential issue (the death penalty deals with the matters of life & death). Christians disagree on the issue of imprisonment. I believe The New Covenant allows for the government to imprison.

Freak, based on what we have been discussing on this thread, I do not think you can continue to use this particular argument (that Paul being forgiven shows that God has abolished the death penalty) without being dishonest.

That is one aspect to my position. The New Covenant does not endorse the state's use of the death penalty. Nowhere does the New Covenant call for the state to punish criminals via death. Furthermore......

The Gospel message is a greater tool to wage against crime then the death penalty. Are you interested in hearing how this is so???? It might change your life, Turbo......Let me know if you're interested!!!

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by drbrumley
Hmmmm, so what changed Freak?

Do you believe the Old Covenant Laws are valid for today?

So the law still applies, doesn't it Freak? But not to us, to unbelievers!

Do we presently live under the Old or New Covenant?

Believers forgive, governments execute. So, if the governing authorities are to obey God, they must not bear the sword in vain but execute. wrath on the criminal, for they are God’s minister to avenge and bring terror on him who practices evil. Thus God commanded execution in large part to meet out vengeance against capital criminals.

Romans 13 does not endorse the death penalty. You pulled the death penalty out of the thin air using this verse because it's not there!

Besides, the Gospel message is a greater tool to fight crime then death. Redemptive justice is what Christ calls us to.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by drbrumley
God forgave the New Testament adulterer just as He forgave Old Testament adulterers, in neither instance revoking His law. God has all authority to forgive the criminal and disregard temporal punishment. Contrariwise, Men must obey God and cannot ignore punishment.

Look forward to your reply Freak.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

The question remains.....

Do you believe we live under the Old or New Covenant?

 

[Servo]

Freak,
Under the New Covenant, what did God say was the penalty for murder?

Should we lock up a murderer and force him to listen to Kenneth Copeland all day?

BTW, did God say to use cruel and unusual punishment?

:think:

 

[Turbo]

Shimei, We are talking about the death penalty. Don't change the subject to something totally unrelated like what punishment we should use instead of the death penalty, and whether God ever endorsed that form of punishment in the New Covenant.

Shimei, do you agree that the New Covenant is the superior covenant, and that repeating that can debunk any argument made against me?

 

[s9s27s54]

Turbo says:
Shimei, do you agree that the New Covenant is the superior covenant, and that repeating that can debunk any argument made against me?

I say:
The new Covenant is even more powerful than you, Turbo.

 

[Turbo]

Sorry about that... I forgot who I was for a moment there.

By the way Shemei, your last post on this thread was very good, about God having the authority to grant mercy on criminals.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by s9s27s54
The new Covenant is even more powerful than you, Turbo.

No doubt.

You know that post 195 was tongue-in-cheek, right s9?

 

[s9s27s54]

Originally posted by Turbo
No doubt.

You know that post 195 was tongue-in-cheek, right s9?

Yeah I do. I was kidding around too.

 

[Turbo]

OK.

 

[Servo]

Turbo,
Thanks! I would hate to ever change the subject in one of these forums.....
:thumb:
:chuckle: