More On the William Tyndale Translation of II Thessalonians 2: 3-8

[northwye]

More On the William Tyndale Translation of II Thessalonians 2: 3-8

Here is William Tyndale's 1534 translation of II Thessalonians 2: 3-8:

"Let no man deceive you by any means, for the Lord comes not, unless there come
a departing first, and that sinful man be revealed,
the son of perdition which is an
adversary, and is exalted above all that is called
God, or that is worshipped: so that
he shall sit as God in the temple of God, and show
himself as God. Remember ye
not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these
things?

And now you know what withholds, that he might be revealed at his time.
For the mystery of that iniquity
does he already work, which only locks until it be
taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the appearance of
his coming..."

Here is the King James Version for II Thessalonians 2: 3-8:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, unless there
come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing
himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told
you these things?

And now you know what withholds, that he might be revealed
in his time. For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets
will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord
shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy
with the brightness of his coming..."

II Thessalonians 2: 7 is translated differently in the King James Version than in Tyndale's 1534 New Testament. Tyndale says "For the mystery of that iniquity
does he already work, which only locks until it be
taken out of the way."

But the King James says "For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets
will let, until he be taken out of the way."

Tyndale translates μονον ο κατεχων αρτι εως εκ μεσου γενηται as "which only locks until it be
taken out of the way."

The King James says "only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way." This is where the idea of the restrainer comes from. But in Tyndale's translation of II Thessalonians 2: 7 there is no restrainer. The takeover of the temple of God, which is the believer (I Corinthians 3: 16-16, I Corinthians 6: 16), is locked in place until that takeover is removed.

"Letteth" is from The Greek kateko, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Number 2722, "to hold down, withhold..." Letteth can mean to restrain. But Tyndale translates it as "locks," meaning to lock in place that takeover of the temple of God in the believer by the sinful man.

In his writings Tyndale explains that the anti-Christ is not a single individual but is a present danger to Christians, since it is not something that is always in the future. The dispensationalist one man anti-Christ is to come in the future.

Lets see what the Geneva Bible says for II Thessalonians 2: 7, "For the mysterie of iniquitie doeth already worke: onely he which nowe withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way."

The Geneva Bible translation group changed Tyndale's translation of II Thessalonians 2: 7 and the King James Committee followed the Geneva Bible.

See: http://genevabible.com/history.php

"The Geneva translators produced a revised New Testament in English in 1557 that was essentially a revision of Tyndale's revised and corrected 1534 edition. Much of the work was done by William Whittingham, the brother-in-law of John Calvin. The Geneva New Testament was barely off the press when work began on a revision of the entire Bible, a process that took more than two years. The new translation was checked with Theodore Beza's earlier work and the Greek text."

Theodore Beza published his own Greek and Latin versions of the New Testament.

S. L. Greenslade The Cambridge History of the Bible, Volume 3: The West from the Reformation to the Present Day 1975 p.62 “Calvin's successor at Geneva, Théodore de Bèze (Beza), was the editor of the next important edition of the Greek New Testament, which appeared in 1565 (his own Latin version had been printed in 1557).

Here is Theodore Beza's Latin version (1557) of II Thessalonians 2: 7: Jam enim peragitur mysterium
impietatis hu^us ; tantum qui nunc
obstat, obstabit usquedum e medio
sublatus fuerit.

7 Now we have the mystery
impiety hu ^ us; only now
an obstacle, an obstacle until the middle

The Calvinist Theodore Beza's 1557 translation of II Thessalonians 2: 7 differs radically from the 1534 translation of Tyndale. Remember that it was also Beza who changed Tyndale's consistent translation of ekklesia as congregation to church.

In the King James for II Thessalonians 2: 7 the man of sin, who many in the churches say is the one man anti-Christ, is being held back by something or someone restraining or holding him back at present, until the restrainer is taken out of the way in the future. The dispensationalist view that the anti-Christ as a one man figure is to appear in the future - probably during the tribulation - when the anti-Christ sits in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem - is easier to arrive at from the King James Version than from the Tyndale translation.. In the King James the man of sin is being held back now but he will be released to appear later. And the restrainer is said to be the Church or the Holy Spirit.

But William Tyndale taught that the man of sin is at work now and will be locked in place until he or it will be taken away.

Tyndale saw that the Jews missed the Messiah when he came, and they are still looking for him to come later. In like manner, Christians fail to correctly identify the man of sin of II Thessalonians 2 because they are looking for him to come later, and "he" is not one man as is taught by the huge number of false prophets (Matthew 24: 11, II Peter 2: 1-3).

John Wycliffe in his 1382 English translation of the Latin ecclesia used chirche. For example, Wycliffe says for Acts 6: 1, "But Saul was consentynge to his deth. And greet persecucioun was maad that dai in the chirche, that was in Jerusalem."

William Tyndale did not follow Wycliffe in using chirche, which would have been conistent with the Catholic meaning of Church, but instead used congregation for ekklesia consistently except for two verses in Acts where he used churche to mean a pagan place of worship. For example, Tyndale's translation for Acts 8: 1 says "Saul had pleasure in his deeth. And at yt tyme there was a great persecucion agaynst the congregacion which was at Ierusalem."

Theodore Beza in 1556 returned to the use of church to translate ekklesia - and the Geneva Bible followed him, using church instead of congregation.

Did the same thing happen with the translation of II Thessalonians 2: 7? Did Tyndale break with the Roman Catholic translation of II Thessalonians and then Theodore Beza, the Calvinist, returned II Thessalonians 2: 7 to the older Catholic version?

Jerome's Latgin Vulgate for II Thessalonians 2: 7 says nam mysterium iam operatur iniquitatis tantum ut qui tenet nunc donec de medio fiat

See the Douay-Rheims for an English translation of the Latin: "For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way. "

But Tyndale does not follow the Catholic version of II Thessalonians 2: 7 and instead writes, "For the mystery of that iniquity does he already work, which only locks until it be taken out of the way."

Here is Theodore Beza's Latin version (1557) of II Thessalonians 2: 7:
"Jam enim peragitur mysterium
impietatis hu^us ; tantum qui nunc
obstat, obstabit usquedum e medio
sublatus fuerit."

7 Now we have the mystery
impiety hu ^ us; only now
an obstacle, an obstacle until the middle

The Calvinist Theodore Beza's 1557 translation of II Thessalonians 2: 7 differs from the 1534 translation of Tyndale, and returns to the meaning of the Catholic Vulgate version.

John Wycliff New Testament for II Thessalonians 2: 3-7;

http://wesley.nnu.edu/fileadmin/impo...cliffe/2th.txt

"No man disseyue you in ony manere. For but dissencioun come first, and the man of synne be schewid, the sonne of perdicioun,
4 that is aduersarie, and is enhaunsid ouer `al thing that is seid God, or that is worschipid, so that he sitte in the temple of God, and schewe hym silf as if he were God.
5 Whether ye holden not, that yit whanne Y was at you, Y seide these thingis to you?
6 And now what withholdith, ye witen, that he be schewid in his tyme.
7 For the priuete of wickidnesse worchith now; oneli that he that holdith now, holde, til he be do awe."

I have not been able to find out what the word priuete means in verse 7. I am not sure that Wycliffe is following Jerome's version of II Thessalonians 2: 7.

But it looks like the Catholic version of II Thessalonians 2: 7 makes it easier to arrive at the dispensationalist teaching that the man of sin, as literally one individual, is held back by a restrainer, the Church or the Holy Spirit, until the time of the tribulation, when the dispensationalist scenario will begin and the one man anti-Christ sits in a literal rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.

 

[TweetyBird]

I don't see a difference between Tyndale and the King James.

 

[northwye]

After the William Tyndale translation of II Thessalonians 2: 3-8,the Geneva Bible and then the King James Version began translating this prophecy in a way which better fits in with the popular idea that one particular individual was to rise up in the future, who would be a world leader who is to be deceptive and would seek to undermine the doctrine that Christ came in the flesh to save those who believe on him. This one individual has been called the Anti-Christ.

Jerome's Latin Vulgate for II Thessalonians 2: 7 says nam mysterium iam operatur iniquitatis tantum ut qui tenet nunc donec de medio fiat

See the Douay-Rheims for an English translation of the Latin: "For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way. "

But Tyndale does not follow the Catholic version of II Thessalonians 2: 7 and instead writes, "For the mystery of that iniquity does he already work, which only locks until it be taken out of the way."

The Geneva Bible,influenced by the Calvinst Theodore Beza, appears to return to the Catholic Latin translation of II Thessalonians 2:7 in which the Greek is translated as meaning that the anti-Christ is restrained until the restrainer is taken out of the way.

In 1534 Tyndale translated verse 7, “For the mystery of that iniquity doth he already
work, which only locketh until it be taken out of the way."

Tyndale's translation is saying that the mystery of iniquity
which is the working of this opposition to Christ and his sacrifice for his followers is"locked" in place until it is taken out of the way. Tyndale's translation says that this opposition, which is not one man, that was in existence when he wrote.

Tyndale translated the Greek verb katecho in II Thessalonians 2:7 as locks, while the King James Version translates it as lets, apparently meaning restrains.

Thayer, in his Greek-English Lexicon, says there is another meaning of katecho, to possess. Those false prophets acting in opposition to Jesus Christ and his mission to save his followers might be considered to be in possession of this opposition to Christ. Since they are in possession of the opposition to Christ they can lock up that opposition in the sense of keeping the opposition going.

Tyndale saw the Greek in II Thessalonians 2: 7 to mean that the spirit of anti-Christ locks in place the evil opposition to Jesus Christ, while the translators of of the Geneva Bible and the King James saw the Greek as saying that a restrainer working for good against the evil one man Anti-Christ held him back but is to release him to do his work opposing Christ in the future.

Tyndale, who was acting as a member of a very small remnant in 1534, might warn Christians
about the deception of those operating in the spirit of anti-Christ (I John 4:3) a deception which
turns truth on its head. He did not understand the
scriptures to teach about a mystery man who will arise in the future. But such a view has
been imposed upon the Geneva Bible and King James Version translations.

The dispensationalist or Christian Zionist understanding of Antichrist as being in the literal sense as one man
is interpreted from the King James Version translation as saying a restrainer will hold back the one man anti-Christ until sometime in the future.

But this is not Tyndale’s understanding, which is that the spirit of anti-Christ existed when he was writing and will continue until that spirit is taken out of the way. "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." I John 2:18

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." I John 4:11-3

Tyndale might say to us that the spirit of Anti-christ has been successful in deceiving us
into looking for him to come sometime in the future,when all along he has been running around deceiving us.
Tyndale saw that the Jews missed the
Messiah when he came, and they
are still looking for him to come later. In like manner, Christians fail to spot the Anti-Christ
because they are looking for him to come later, and because they fail to
learn from the scriptures what the signs of his presence are. And "he" is not one individual but a spirit.

"Mark this also above all things – that Antichrist is not an outward thing, that is to say,
a man that should suddenly appear with wonders, as our fathers talked of him. No,
verily; for Antichrist is a spiritual thing. And is as much to say as against Christ; that
is, one that preacheth false doctrine, contrary to Christ.
Antichrist was in the Old Testament, and fought with the prophets; he was also in
the time of Christ and the apostles, as thou readest in the Epistles of John, and of
Paul to the Corinthians and Galatians, and other Epistles. Antichrist is now, and will,
(I doubt not) endure till the world’s end. But his nature is (when he is revealed and
overcome with the word of God) to go out of play for a season, and to disguise
himself, and then to come in again with new raiment.
As thou seest how Christ rebuketh the Scribes and the Pharisees in the gospel.
(which were very Antichrists,) saying, Woe be to you, Pharisees, for ye rob widow’
s houses; ye pray long prayers under a colour; ye shut up the kingdom of heaven, and suffer them not that would enter in; ye have taken away the key of knowledge;
ye make men break God’s commandments with your traditions; ye beguile the people with hypocrisy and such
like. Which things all our prelates do, but have ye
t gotten them new names, and
other garments, and are otherwise disguised.
There is a difference in the names between a pope,
a cardinal, a bishop, and so
forth, and to say a scribe, a Pharisee, an [elder],
and so forth; but the thing is all one. "

"The Jews look for Christ, and he came fifteen hundr
ed years ago and they are not
aware of it. And we also have looked for Antichrist
, and he hath reigned as long, and
we are not aware – and that because we both look carnally for him, and not in the
places where we ought ... The Jews would have found Christ
verily if they had
sought him in the law and the prophets, whither Christ sendeth them to seek. (John
v.) We also would have spied out Antichrist long a
go if we had looked in the
doctrine of Christ and his apostles."

Quotes from Tyndale's Parable of the Wicked Mammon
(Benedicton Classics facsimile reprint, 2008), p. 5.
Ibid, pp. 4-5. In modern English spelling.

http://newmatthewbible.org/least.pdf

"Patrick Collinson, in an
article called
William Tyndale and the
Course of the English Reformation,
called it “a paradox” that this man – who contributed
so much to the English Reformation, and who was so
important that he was
determinedly pursued by enemies across international
borders for years, and who knew
himself and was known by others to have been given
grace by God for his special work,
and who significantly influenced both the course of
English history and language, and
who gave us the best and the most in our English Bible – that this man should have
been “so soon forgotten.”
Mr. Collinson noted the recognition Tyndale received in
Foxe’s Book of Martyrs as God’s “Apostle to England
”, but then how swiftly he came to
be ignored in Church histories, and his work diminished."

William Tyndale was a member of a very small remnant who began the work of restoring God's plan of redemption at a time close to that of Martin Luther and John Calvin whose work of restoring the work of redemption was only partial. Tyndale's work should be closely looked at by the contemporary remnant.

"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost

Within the literal system of interpretation and mindset of that which is of the letter (II Corinthians 3:6) of Christian Zionism there can also be no remnant of the Church In fact, there is no remnant of the Church in scripture,only the remnant of Israel. Yet, there is a remnant of Israel in the church age in Revelation 7: 1-10, Revelation 14:1-5 and in Revelation 12:17

 

[TweetyBird]

Another long post does not prove anything different than Tyndale and the King James being in perfect agreement on 2 Thess 2:3-8.

 

[Danoh]

Let's try that again.

This time, however, we'll not only allow it to read "as it is written" but that towards our then being able to go about the task of "comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

To allow the text to read as it is written refers to the principle of neither adding to, nor subtracting from, all its words as written.

While comparing spiritual things with spiritual refers to the principle the above then allows - it allows the text to express its actually intended sense over our own, via its' own word use.

Here is the text "as it is written..."

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Here is its' intended sense through its' own word use.

In the above, he contrasts between those spirits (plural) that are of and in alignment with God's Spirit, with those spirits (plural) that are of he (singular) that is in the world.

The one is that spirit in men that is of, and is therefore aligned with the Spirit of God and is therefore aligned with Christ.

Those two are a common theme mentioned throughout the NT.

The other is that spirit in men that is of, and is therefore aligned with, the spirit of the Adversary, and is therefore aligned with Antichrist.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[beameup]

apostasia underwent a change in meaning following Tyndale.
Tyndale correctly translated it as "departure", indicating the Rapture/Harpazo.
KJV translated apostasia as "falling away", as the word was incorporated into
the English language as apostasy (most likely in reference to the Papacy/RCC).

 

[Tambora]

I have a question about the OP's conclusion that it should be translated "departure".

How was it determined that it should be "departure" and not "departed" or "departing"?

 

[beameup]

A main subject of 2 Thessalonians 2 is the Body of Christ:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him [in the clouds] - 2 Thes 2:1
This event unleashes Satan to deceive the world by the False-Messiah (aka: Antichrist).
The "event" is the removal of the Body of Christ.

And now ye know what withholdeth that he [Antichrist] might be revealed in his time. 2 Thes 2:6
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains
will do so until he is taken out of the way. 2 Thes 2:7 NASB

 

[Crucible]

apostasia underwent a change in meaning following Tyndale.
Tyndale correctly translated it as "departure", indicating the Rapture/Harpazo.
KJV translated apostasia as "falling away", as the word was incorporated into
the English language as apostasy (most likely in reference to the Papacy/RCC).

Nobody believed in your rapture doctrine back then, so the translation was not meant to entail it.
I know that is easily forgotten among you MADists that your rapture is for the most part an invention of the 19th century.

Go find your own translation to misinterpret :wave:

 

[beameup]

Nobody believed in your rapture doctrine back then, so the translation was not meant to entail it.
I know that is easily forgotten among you MADists that your rapture is for the most part an invention of the 19th century.

Go find your own translation to misinterpret :wave:

You obviously have zero knowledge of the writings of the Early Church Fathers (up to about 200AD).
Instead, you fall for Constantine's State Church (aka: RCC) and its heretical doctrine that "the Church" was
the "Kingdom of God" upon the Earth. Unfortunately, "the Reformers" clung to the Catholic heresy.

 

[Danoh]

Alone...the Greek often fails to yield the desired understanding.

And using it in an attempt to back up one's view, is no way to go either.

There is much in Scripture on what Paul is talking about in those individual words, phrases, and passages in 2 Thessalonians 2.

The big picture is at times according to the principle described in Isaiah 8:20; at other times in the one described in 2 Timothy 3:16-17; and at other times in a combination of both.

Thus, why Acts 17:11.

 

[Zeke]

More On the William Tyndale Translation of II Thessalonians 2: 3-8

Here is William Tyndale's 1534 translation of II Thessalonians 2: 3-8:

"Let no man deceive you by any means, for the Lord comes not, unless there come
a departing first, and that sinful man be revealed,
the son of perdition which is an
adversary, and is exalted above all that is called
God, or that is worshipped: so that
he shall sit as God in the temple of God, and show
himself as God. Remember ye
not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these
things?

And now you know what withholds, that he might be revealed at his time.
For the mystery of that iniquity
does he already work, which only locks until it be
taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the appearance of
his coming..."

Here is the King James Version for II Thessalonians 2: 3-8:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, unless there
come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing
himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told
you these things?

And now you know what withholds, that he might be revealed
in his time. For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets
will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord
shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy
with the brightness of his coming..."

II Thessalonians 2: 7 is translated differently in the King James Version than in Tyndale's 1534 New Testament. Tyndale says "For the mystery of that iniquity
does he already work, which only locks until it be
taken out of the way."

But the King James says "For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets
will let, until he be taken out of the way."

Tyndale translates μονον ο κατεχων αρτι εως εκ μεσου γενηται as "which only locks until it be
taken out of the way."

The King James says "only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way." This is where the idea of the restrainer comes from. But in Tyndale's translation of II Thessalonians 2: 7 there is no restrainer. The takeover of the temple of God, which is the believer (I Corinthians 3: 16-16, I Corinthians 6: 16), is locked in place until that takeover is removed.

"Letteth" is from The Greek kateko, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Number 2722, "to hold down, withhold..." Letteth can mean to restrain. But Tyndale translates it as "locks," meaning to lock in place that takeover of the temple of God in the believer by the sinful man.

In his writings Tyndale explains that the anti-Christ is not a single individual but is a present danger to Christians, since it is not something that is always in the future. The dispensationalist one man anti-Christ is to come in the future.

Lets see what the Geneva Bible says for II Thessalonians 2: 7, "For the mysterie of iniquitie doeth already worke: onely he which nowe withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way."

The Geneva Bible translation group changed Tyndale's translation of II Thessalonians 2: 7 and the King James Committee followed the Geneva Bible.

See: http://genevabible.com/history.php

"The Geneva translators produced a revised New Testament in English in 1557 that was essentially a revision of Tyndale's revised and corrected 1534 edition. Much of the work was done by William Whittingham, the brother-in-law of John Calvin. The Geneva New Testament was barely off the press when work began on a revision of the entire Bible, a process that took more than two years. The new translation was checked with Theodore Beza's earlier work and the Greek text."

Theodore Beza published his own Greek and Latin versions of the New Testament.

S. L. Greenslade The Cambridge History of the Bible, Volume 3: The West from the Reformation to the Present Day 1975 p.62 “Calvin's successor at Geneva, Théodore de Bèze (Beza), was the editor of the next important edition of the Greek New Testament, which appeared in 1565 (his own Latin version had been printed in 1557).

Here is Theodore Beza's Latin version (1557) of II Thessalonians 2: 7: Jam enim peragitur mysterium
impietatis hu^us ; tantum qui nunc
obstat, obstabit usquedum e medio
sublatus fuerit.

7 Now we have the mystery
impiety hu ^ us; only now
an obstacle, an obstacle until the middle

The Calvinist Theodore Beza's 1557 translation of II Thessalonians 2: 7 differs radically from the 1534 translation of Tyndale. Remember that it was also Beza who changed Tyndale's consistent translation of ekklesia as congregation to church.

In the King James for II Thessalonians 2: 7 the man of sin, who many in the churches say is the one man anti-Christ, is being held back by something or someone restraining or holding him back at present, until the restrainer is taken out of the way in the future. The dispensationalist view that the anti-Christ as a one man figure is to appear in the future - probably during the tribulation - when the anti-Christ sits in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem - is easier to arrive at from the King James Version than from the Tyndale translation.. In the King James the man of sin is being held back now but he will be released to appear later. And the restrainer is said to be the Church or the Holy Spirit.

But William Tyndale taught that the man of sin is at work now and will be locked in place until he or it will be taken away.

Tyndale saw that the Jews missed the Messiah when he came, and they are still looking for him to come later. In like manner, Christians fail to correctly identify the man of sin of II Thessalonians 2 because they are looking for him to come later, and "he" is not one man as is taught by the huge number of false prophets (Matthew 24: 11, II Peter 2: 1-3).

John Wycliffe in his 1382 English translation of the Latin ecclesia used chirche. For example, Wycliffe says for Acts 6: 1, "But Saul was consentynge to his deth. And greet persecucioun was maad that dai in the chirche, that was in Jerusalem."

William Tyndale did not follow Wycliffe in using chirche, which would have been conistent with the Catholic meaning of Church, but instead used congregation for ekklesia consistently except for two verses in Acts where he used churche to mean a pagan place of worship. For example, Tyndale's translation for Acts 8: 1 says "Saul had pleasure in his deeth. And at yt tyme there was a great persecucion agaynst the congregacion which was at Ierusalem."

Theodore Beza in 1556 returned to the use of church to translate ekklesia - and the Geneva Bible followed him, using church instead of congregation.

Did the same thing happen with the translation of II Thessalonians 2: 7? Did Tyndale break with the Roman Catholic translation of II Thessalonians and then Theodore Beza, the Calvinist, returned II Thessalonians 2: 7 to the older Catholic version?

Jerome's Latgin Vulgate for II Thessalonians 2: 7 says nam mysterium iam operatur iniquitatis tantum ut qui tenet nunc donec de medio fiat

See the Douay-Rheims for an English translation of the Latin: "For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way. "

But Tyndale does not follow the Catholic version of II Thessalonians 2: 7 and instead writes, "For the mystery of that iniquity does he already work, which only locks until it be taken out of the way."

Here is Theodore Beza's Latin version (1557) of II Thessalonians 2: 7:
"Jam enim peragitur mysterium
impietatis hu^us ; tantum qui nunc
obstat, obstabit usquedum e medio
sublatus fuerit."

7 Now we have the mystery
impiety hu ^ us; only now
an obstacle, an obstacle until the middle

The Calvinist Theodore Beza's 1557 translation of II Thessalonians 2: 7 differs from the 1534 translation of Tyndale, and returns to the meaning of the Catholic Vulgate version.

John Wycliff New Testament for II Thessalonians 2: 3-7;

http://wesley.nnu.edu/fileadmin/impo...cliffe/2th.txt

"No man disseyue you in ony manere. For but dissencioun come first, and the man of synne be schewid, the sonne of perdicioun,
4 that is aduersarie, and is enhaunsid ouer `al thing that is seid God, or that is worschipid, so that he sitte in the temple of God, and schewe hym silf as if he were God.
5 Whether ye holden not, that yit whanne Y was at you, Y seide these thingis to you?
6 And now what withholdith, ye witen, that he be schewid in his tyme.
7 For the priuete of wickidnesse worchith now; oneli that he that holdith now, holde, til he be do awe."

I have not been able to find out what the word priuete means in verse 7. I am not sure that Wycliffe is following Jerome's version of II Thessalonians 2: 7.

But it looks like the Catholic version of II Thessalonians 2: 7 makes it easier to arrive at the dispensationalist teaching that the man of sin, as literally one individual, is held back by a restrainer, the Church or the Holy Spirit, until the time of the tribulation, when the dispensationalist scenario will begin and the one man anti-Christ sits in a literal rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.

Ephesians 6:12 introverts the struggle like Romans seven does, Galatians shows the two states one of bondage and the other liberty which happens within us, so this one man antiChrist is like the one man being Christ, both are rudimentary/milk told in allegorical style for beginners who haven't awoken to Luke 17:20-21, which is the key to grasping where the none observable Kingdom and Temple is really located and what the outward brick and mortar tales represent

 

[Tambora]

Apostasy = rebellion, covenant breaking, divorce, defection, depart, walking away, abandonment.




It is formed from two Greek words:

apo (away from)

histemi ("to make a stand, to stand firm, to be unwavering, to be steadfast").
In other words, to walk away from something where you once had been standing firm (in a fixed position), or to abandon whom we have formally pledged to stand with.​

This Greek word is used in it's three forms in scripture:

apostasia [feminine noun form]: "rebellion, defection, apostasy"


apostasion [neuter noun form]: "abandon, walking away, divorce"


aphistemi [verb form]: "to abandon, to walk away, to refuse to stand firm"​

And here are some scriptures that use the forms of this Greek word:


2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



Acts 21:20-21 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.



Matthew 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:


Mark 10:4 KJV
(4) And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.



Matthew 19:7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?"




Luke 2:36-37 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, a daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; and she was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.


Hebrews 3:12 Watch out, brothers, so that there won't be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart that departs from the living God.



Luke 8:13 KJV
(13) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.



1 Timothy 4:1 KJV
(1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;




Acts 5:37 KJV
(37) After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.




Luke 8:13 KJV
(13) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[Tambora]

A main subject of 2 Thessalonians 2 is the Body of Christ:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him [in the clouds] - 2 Thes 2:1
This event unleashes Satan to deceive the world by the False-Messiah (aka: Antichrist).
The "event" is the removal of the Body of Christ.

And now ye know what withholdeth that he [Antichrist] might be revealed in his time. 2 Thes 2:6
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains
will do so until he is taken out of the way. 2 Thes 2:7 NASB

Let me ask this .....

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
(1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
(2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

​

Are the yellow and the pink the same event?

Is the blue connected to yellow, or the pink, or both?

I ask because if it is all talking of the same event, then according to what you have presented, THAT DAY is the rapture (our gathering together with Him).
And your reading would be "the day of the rapture (our gathering together with Him) will not occur till the day of the rapture (our gathering together with Him) comes first".

 

[beameup]

The Day of Christ is clearly connected to the gathering of the saints (ie: Harpazo/Rapture).
On the other hand, The Day of the LORD is associated with judgment.

Day of the LORD thread:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...f-the-LORD-The-coming-Time-of-Jacob-s-Trouble

 

[northwye]

William Tyndale says that "Antichrist is not an outward thing, that is to say,
a man that should suddenly appear with wonders, as our fathers talked of him. No,
verily; for Antichrist is a spiritual thing. And is as much to say as against Christ; that
is, one that preacheth false doctrine, contrary to Christ.
Antichrist was in the Old Testament, and fought with the prophets; he was also in
the time of Christ and the apostles, as thou readest in the Epistles of John, and of
Paul to the Corinthians and Galatians, and other Epistles. Antichrist is now, and will,
(I doubt not) endure till the world’s end. But his nature is (when he is revealed and
overcome with the word of God) to go out of play for a season, and to disguise
himself, and then to come in again with new raiment.
As thou seest how Christ rebuketh the Scribes and the Pharisees in the gospel.
(which were very Antichrists,) saying, Woe be to you, Pharisees, for ye rob widow’
s houses; ye pray long prayers under a colour; ye shut up the kingdom of heaven, and suffer them not that would enter in; ye have taken away the key of knowledge;"

From Tyndale's Parable of the Wicked Mammon
(Benedicton Classics facsimile reprint, 2008), p. 5.
Ibid, pp. 4-5. In modern English spelling.

But the dispensationlist-Christian Zionist interpretation of II Thessalonians 2: 3-8 is literal as seen here:

"Biblical prophecies clearly predict the rise of the Antichrist in the end times and more than 100 passages of Scripture describe the Antichrist’s origin, nationality, character, career, and global conquest. The term Antichrist may be applied both to an individual and to the system he represents."

From: The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy, By Tim Lahaye and Ed Hindson, Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 2004, p. 23.

Britt Gillette, says that “the Antichrist is a very real person. During the final seven year period before the Glorious Appearing of Jesus Christ, the Antichrist will achieve unprecedented global power."

From: http://www.raptureready.com/featured/gillette/bg54.html

Look at I John 2: 18, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." It does not say THE anti-Christ. And John tells us that at the time he was writing there were many anti-Christs.

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." I John 4: 1-3

The opposition to the teaching that Jesus Christ appeared in the flesh to save his people, which the King James Version calls the spirit of anti-Christ, is said by John to already be in the world when he wrote. So Tyndale is right when he teaches that the anti-Christ is not something which appears in the future. I John 2: 18 says "even now are there many anti-Christs," showing that Tyndale is right in saying anti-Christ is not one man.

But dispensationalism-Christian Zionism starts from the assumption that scripture - including prophecy - must be literally interpreted.

"Not one instance exists of a 'spiritual' or figurative fulfilment of
prophecy... Jerusalem is always Jerusalem, Israel is always Israel, Zion
is always Zion... Prophecies may never be spiritualised, but are always
literal." C.I. Scofield, Scofield Bible Correspondence Course (Chicago,
Moody Bible Institute, 1907), pp. 45-46.

There it is,the dogmatic assertion that prophecy must be literally interpreted. And this is why dispensationalism-Christian Zionism's doctrine of the future appearance of a one man anti-Christ figure is false. Tyndale explained the true meaning of anti-Christ way back in the 16th century.

 

[Wick Stick]

I have not been able to find out what the word priuete means in verse 7.

Here you go:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/privity

 

[Tambora]

Let me ask this .....

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
(1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
(2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

​

Are the yellow and the pink the same event?

Is the blue connected to yellow, or the pink, or both?

I ask because if it is all talking of the same event, then according to what you have presented, THAT DAY is the rapture (our gathering together with Him).
And your reading would be "the day of the rapture (our gathering together with Him) will not occur till the day of the rapture (our gathering together with Him) comes first".

The Day of Christ is clearly connected to the gathering of the saints (ie: Harpazo/Rapture).
On the other hand, The Day of the LORD is associated with judgment.

Day of the LORD thread:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...f-the-LORD-The-coming-Time-of-Jacob-s-Trouble

that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

If that day is the day of the rapture, then you cannot have the rapture happening BEFORE that day comes.

 

[Danoh]

that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

If that day is the day of the rapture, then you cannot have the rapture happening BEFORE that day comes.

Depends on what one takes the phrase "the day of Christ" to be a reference to.

In this, one has to go beyond merely comparing same phrase with same phrase, to comparing what is at times a different idea between two same phrases.

One of those finer principles I am always going on about and that one begins to come to see over time, the more time one invests in Scripture comparing not only the things that differ; and not only the things that are merely similar; but the things that are exactly the same.

Further, there is much in Scripture not often taken into account that points to the KJV's "a falling away" as being a reference to Israel's falling away from Moses on the things of God according to the Law, when that is an issue once more at some point after the Body's Pre-Trib Catching Away.

One example of many, being that OTHER catching away the Lord mentions in His parable of the Sower in the following...

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

He spoke that entire parable even as He spoke of Israel's continued apostasy in His day; an apostasy that Isaiah had also witnessed with his own eyes in his day as well.

Here are just a few more passages of the various ones there are...

Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

While in the following, Paul is clearly pointing out a contrast between those who had been pointed to the truth but who had not wanted it for what it meant having to go without...

Between two groups on either side of the timing of these things...

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It apoears that things return back to where they were way, way back in the following day, thus; why the Christ had been standing towards that aspect of His "day of Christ" - in His wrath...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Back then also, unbelieving Israel had the truth, but had preferred "pleasure in unrighteousness..."

There is much in Scripture on all this.

And I am sure you know from Scripture why the Lord was standing as depicted in Acts 7.

Anyway, hope that helps.

 

[Tambora]

that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

If that day is the day of the rapture, then you cannot have the rapture happening BEFORE that day comes.

Depends on what one takes the phrase "the day of Christ" to be a reference to.

In this, one has to go beyond merely comparing same phrase with same phrase, to comparing what is at times a different idea between two same phrases.

One of those finer principles I am always going on about and that one begins to come to see over time, the more time one invests in Scripture comparing not only the things that differ; and not only the things that are merely similar; but the things that are exactly the same.

Further, there is much in Scripture not often taken into account that points to the KJV's "a falling away" as being a reference to Israel's falling away from Moses on the things of God according to the Law, when that is an issue once more at some point after the Body's Pre-Trib Catching Away.

One example of many, being that OTHER catching away the Lord mentions in His parable of the Sower in the following...

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

He spoke that entire parable even as He spoke of Israel's continued apostasy in His day; an apostasy that Isaiah had also witnessed with his own eyes in his day as well.

Here are just a few more passages of the various ones there are...

Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

While in the following, Paul is clearly pointing out a contrast between those who had been pointed to the truth but who had not wanted it for what it meant having to go without...

Between two groups on either side of the timing of these things...

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It apoears that things return back to where they were way, way back in the following day, thus; why the Christ had been standing towards that aspect of His "day of Christ" - in His wrath...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Back then also, unbelieving Israel had the truth, but had preferred "pleasure in unrighteousness..."

There is much in Scripture on all this.

And I am sure you know from Scripture why the Lord was standing as depicted in Acts 7.

Anyway, hope that helps.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 KJV
(1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

(2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


(4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.​

First, you have to determine if the red and blue are the same event.
In your opinion, are they the same?
Don't need to know what others think it means; just want to know what you think it means and if either are for the BOC.


Is the green in reference to the red and blue?
If not, what in your opinion is the green in reference to?

What is the purple (that day) in reference to in your opinion?

And then we have the debated orange.
In your opinion, is it the BOC or Israel that falls away?

That day does not occur till AFTER the orange.

Is the pink in connection with that day?