(Mal 4:5 KJV) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
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(Mal 4:5 KJV) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
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"Tet,
Your response? Here."-AMR
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75232&page=74
Last Hilston post 3/21
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3011299#post3011299
What's the matter deceiver Tet.? You said at Memorial Day that you would respond to Hilston. Why are you "scrambling like a cockroach?"
That is his MO-he gets picked apart, spams his cliches, that never address the argument, goes away, and spams another thread.
Yet.-the habitual liar, and deceiver, of TOL.
I believe that!
Yep .... OF ELIJAH.
Jesus disagrees with you.
Matthew 17 KJV
(10) And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
(11) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(12) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
(13) Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
(10) And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
(11) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(12) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
(13) Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
Both were real literal physical people and did what they did in a real literal physical manner.
ROFL!
So now you want to say that "literal" does not equal a real physical manner?
How did John fulfill it without doing it in a real literal physical manner?
Was John not really there, but just floating around like a ghost or a vision?
Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets.
John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy.
An angel of the Lord said the following when JTB was born:
(Luke 1:17) And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
All of this happened.
You guys are playing games.
Elijah was a prophet. He was caught up in a chariot. God said that Elijah the prophet would come before the Messiah.
The same Elijah the prophet didn't literally come before Jesus in the first century. John the Baptist came with the spirit and power of Elijah.
No matter how hard you guys try, the prophecy wasn't fulfilled literally.
As I said before, the Pharisees read the prophecies the way dispensationalists read them today.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Elijah comes twice.
This is more fiction that has to be made up by dispensationalists in order to make the Bible fit dispensationalism.
Just for fun, does the real Elijah come the next time, or does John the Baptist come?
I didn't talk myself out of anything. I believe the land promise was fulfilled just like Joshua said it was. I believe Abraham and all the other OT Saints are in the Heavenly kingdom right now, the New Jerusalem.
Yet, Peter still appeals to the rest in Acts 3 and Stephen appeals to the High Priest and the rest in Acts 7.
There was a remnant of believers, they took the gospel to the Jew first. "Salvation is of the Jews" was what Jesus told them.
I thought you guys were supposed to be secretly raptured away before the 2nd Elijah or JTBII comes?
Me too.
I don't think it was just some illogical coincidence that Elijah (and Moses) appeared with Christ during His transfiguration, letting His disciples know that He had them on hand to do His bidding.
Yes, and the last time I checked "Of Elijah" is not literally the same thing as "Elijah the prophet"
You just can't admit that the prophecy wasn't fulfilled literally like you claim prophecy has to be fulfilled.
Because you know if you do, then all your other prophecies that you claim are unfulfilled are open to the possibility of having been fulfilled spiritually, and this would ruin your dispensationalism.
No, it's you that He disagrees with.
Jesus didn't say "an" Elijah, He said Elijah
Yet it was John the Baptist.
Yet you claim the prophecy was literally fulfilled.
How many times do you want me to post Luke 1?
John fulfilled the prophecy "in spirit in power"
"In spirit and power" is mutually exclusive from "literal"
John was literally here, which means that the Elijah the prophet who lived 800 years earlier wasn't literally here.
But that won't stop you from claiming that all prophecy to Israel has to be fulfilled literally.
I realize you just don't get it, Tet.
Some will not.
Some would just like to believe that God will not do what He says He will do, except in some philosophical, Platonian type manner; but nothing will really physically happen.
Such is the way of preterists.
I believe the promises of God will be done is a real physical manner, just as the ones that have already been fulfilled were done.
andyc
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Tambora, you take the statement about what John would do - "restore all", and then ad-lib in order to make it mean what you want it to mean. Then you say that some just don't get it. Some just don't get it because its not in the bible.
Now lets see what scripture does say about John.....
Luke 7:26-30
26 "But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet. 27 "This is he of whom it is written: ‘Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.’ 28 "For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."
Now, here you have a real problem if you are honest with yourself.
If John is going to come back to the earth and do what you think he will do, how can he be lesser than the least in the kingdom of God?
But if the kingdom of God is actually heaven, then it stands to reason that John is the greatest of the old testament prophets under the old covenant. He said, "he who is of the earth is earthly, but he who comes from heaven is above all" (John 3:31). Therefore it was John's task to reform Israel in order prepare her for the Messiah who would be the mediator of the heavenly covenant. All those who are heavenly (born again) would be greater than John. But if John is going to reappear, what will he do as one who is earthly ministering to the heavenly?
Instead of trying to be clever making your wild eschatology ideas work, you really need to get back to basic teaching from the word.
29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.
All the people?
John restored all things by making them ready for the Messiah, but it was also prophesied that some were blinded.
John 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them." (from Isa 6:9-10).
So we see that except for the remnant, Israel has been blinded spiritually because they closed their eyes to the gospel of the kingdom of God. As a result it was taken away from the nation and given to those would receive it (Mat 21:42).
Now lets look at Paul. He explained that Moses foretold how that a people who are not a nation (this is an awesome prophecy) would provoke Israel to jealousy. We are currently living in the time of this prophecy since the beginning of the new covenant. Paul goes on to explain that Israel has not obtained what it was seeking, but the elect have obtained it. What is he talking about? Messiah's kingdom.
They were looking for a physical restoration, and so their spiritual eyes were blinded but the remnant of Israel and the gentiles have obtained it. This will confuse the mads. The remnant have obtained what Israel was seeking.
So how will the blinded see the truth according to scripture?
John the baptist comes to preach again?
Nope
Paul continues....
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
It is the provoking to jealousy by the gentiles and the remnant of Israel that will win the unbelieving Jews. The national sin of rejecting the messiah will be forgiven. Even the remnant of Israel have suffered as a result of the national rejection of Christ, but God will wipe this sin away from every believing Jew's conscience, never to be mentioned again (Rev 21:4).
Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
It is the objective of the church to provoke Israel to jealousy by reaching out to them with the love of Christ. It's not the task of John the baptist, and it never will be.
What I get is dispensationalism.
Dispensationalists think that every prophecy from the OT to Israel is unconditional and has to literally happen.
This is why you don't get it.
Let's look at another prophecy that was fulfilled, but not literally and not physically.
(John 7:38 KJV) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
In the above verse, Jesus refers to an OT prophecy because Jesus says "as the scripture hath said".
Here is the OT verse that Jesus is referring to:
(Zech 14:8 KJV) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Dispensationalists claim that Zech 14:8 means that literal waters will literally flow from literal Jerusalem into the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea.
But that's not how the prophecy was fulfilled. Jesus says that the prophecy is fulfilled by each person who believes in Him. Furthermore, Jesus says that the living waters flow out of each believers belly.
Obviously there isn't literal waters that literally flow out of literal bellies.
So Tambora, as we see, the prophecy was fulfilled spiritually, non-literally, non-physical.
Explain living waters flowing out of one's belly into the Hinder Sea and the Former Sea?
Wile E. Coyote
New member
:up:
Exactly! Only the initial giving of the land was unconditional. Remaining in the land was contingent upon their obedience. If it was unconditional, then how could God have dispossessed them and sacttered them at times?
Good point.
It's mind boggling that dispensationalists think that another Elijah is going to come again.
Even though Jesus said "Elijah has come", they have to claim Elijah has to come again.
This is what happens when someone tries to make the Bible fit dispensationalism.
andyc
New member
That's right.
They latch on to "restore all things", then they make up what the all things consist of.
It's called "Spiritual" Tambor, not philosophical or Platonian.
(John 2:19-20 KJV) 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
andyc
New member
An interesting point surfaced while replying to Tambora.
Romans 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
Paul criticizes the Jews here because they did not seek the righteousness that is acceptable by the law through faith. Yet the madists claim that the Jews were never supposed to, because the righteousness that is of faith is not supposed to be for them until after the resurrection.
Romans 11:5-7
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Israel has not obtain the righteousness it was seeking because they didn't seek it by faith. However, Paul explains that they could have found it. This would negate the two classes that the mads believe existed at the time.
Romans 3:30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Romans 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
Paul criticizes the Jews here because they did not seek the righteousness that is acceptable by the law through faith. Yet the madists claim that the Jews were never supposed to, because the righteousness that is of faith is not supposed to be for them until after the resurrection.
Romans 11:5-7
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Israel has not obtain the righteousness it was seeking because they didn't seek it by faith. However, Paul explains that they could have found it. This would negate the two classes that the mads believe existed at the time.
Romans 3:30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Yep, I have brought this up before.
Paul clearly says that the Israelites sought righteousness by works instead of faith. This means that "works" was never a means of righteousness.
Yet the MADists/dispies claim that the Israelites had to perform works in addition to faith because of their misunderstanding of the following verse:
(Rom 11:6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
They think that "then is it no more of works" means that at one time it was by works.
Their misunderstanding of Rom 11:6 coupled with their misunderstanding of James 2:17, has led to their invention of "kingdom slaves"
Correct.
And, there was a remnant that did obtain it by faith. The Gentiles became fellow heirs with this remnant in the promises.
andyc
New member
If it was by works, what were they actually seeking while they were under the law?
LOL!
andyc
New member
Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
Galatians 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
Heb 10: 38-39 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." 39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Habbakuk prophesied of a time when the just shall live by faith. This means that the justified will walk in the righteousness that they have obtained by faith, just as Paul explains in Romans and Galatians, as it is also explained in the letter to the Hebrews.
The Hebrews writer explains that it is by faith alone that we are saved, and we are to live in this faith.
Galatians 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
Heb 10: 38-39 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." 39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Habbakuk prophesied of a time when the just shall live by faith. This means that the justified will walk in the righteousness that they have obtained by faith, just as Paul explains in Romans and Galatians, as it is also explained in the letter to the Hebrews.
The Hebrews writer explains that it is by faith alone that we are saved, and we are to live in this faith.
Wrong.
I have already said that John did not fully fulfill the entire prophecy of what Elijah (my God is Jehovah) was to do before the coming of Christ.
The complete fulfillment is still pending.
Even Christ, Himself, says there is a future coming of Elijah.
Here is what He says right after the transfiguration where Elijah and Moses are seen with Christ:
Matthew 17 KJV
(9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
(10) And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
(11) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(12) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
(13) Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
(9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
(10) And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
(11) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(12) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
(13) Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
Elijah already came (in the person of John the baptist) before the 1st coming of Christ, and Elijah shall come again before the 2nd coming of Christ.
"Here is the OT verse that Jesus is referring to:
(Zech 14:8 KJV) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Dispensationalists claim that Zech 14:8 means that literal waters will literally flow from literal Jerusalem into the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea.
But that's not how the prophecy was fulfilled. Jesus says that the prophecy is fulfilled by each person who believes in Him. Furthermore, Jesus says that the living waters flow out of each believers belly.
Obviously there isn't literal waters that literally flow out of literal bellies.
So Tambora, as we see, the prophecy was fulfilled spiritually, non-literally, non-physical.....Explain living waters flowing out of one's belly into the Hinder Sea and the Former Sea"-Preterist deceiver
And this humanist deceiver "splains away" Zech. 14, verses 9-12, merely asserting "fulfilled."
"You think that literal waters will flow into literal seas:"-Tet. the humanist
An atheist to Tet.'s great, great, great grandpappy: You think that there was a literal Adam and Eve, a literal flood that destroyed most of the earth, a literal parting of the Red Sea, a literal Joshua, who, with the Israelites, marched around Jericho, and the walls fell down, a "god" literally becoming a man, literally being born via a virgin conception, literally walking on water, literally being crucified on a cross "made by human hands," a "man made" cross, literally rising from the dead, from a literal tomb, and literally ascending to heaven, and literally coming back to earth?
Tet: Well, you see, uh, urr............you are right.
Tet.-the humanist. What I cannot understand, I will not believe. So, I will reduce the book to what I believe. It's called a sophisticated form of idolatry, and humanism. Atheists use the same "argument" against hell, for eg.Liberals also use this "human reasoning" viewpoint.
The atheist: I don't see how there can be a hell. It does not seem to me that God would make a hell. Therefore, there isn't one=idolatry=My mind is my "god." What I cannot conceive, I will not believe. What I cannot understand, I will not accept. So, I will reduce the "volume of the book" to what I believe. I just cannot believe that there is a God of wrath, so there is no God of wrath.
You talk like an atheist, Craigie Tet.-they talk like you.
_________________________________________
Tet: All prophecy has been fulfilled.
"Besides the fact that Jesus fulfilled Zech 14:8, the following poses a big problem for your theory:"-Tet.
Very "subtil," Craigie-you learned that back in Genesis 3 ff...
"it shall be in that day,"Zech. 14 KJV verses 9-12, not just verse 8, Preterist con artist.
Zech. 14
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction;but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Tet: Jerusalem is safely inhabited today! It is today a "city of truth!"...., or,
the prophecy was fulfilled spiritually, non-literally, non-physical...Jerusalem here is symbolic, ....
Zechariah 8:3 KJV
Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth;and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
Jerusalem is today "The City of righteousness," "the faithful city!".....the prophecy was fulfilled spiritually, non-literally, non-physical...Jerusalem here is symbolic, ....
"Obviously."
Deception.
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