ECT Mad finds itself in the trash by applying simple logic

[andyc]

Yes, he lived under the law. But as Paul said, those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

As I said, the big difference is that David didn't experience salvation by grace through faith, otherwise he wan't under the law. He foresaw it. For David it was a future hope, but for us it is a present reality.​

They were believing in His identity. He told the Jews this:

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (Jn.8:23-24).​

The Jews who believed that He is the Christ, the Son of God, were saved the moment they believed that truth (Jn.20:31;1 Jn.5:1-5).

Forgiveness is not based on the believing of Christ's identity alone. It's what his identity makes him qualified to do. An eternal life given for us to receive. Who he is makes him qualified to remove sin on our behalf.

So this is where your problem lies. If people under the law were freed from the condemnation of the law, they were no longer held captive by it. The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. If Jesus took the sting of death upon himself, sin loses it's strength. The law is negated when there is no condemnation. And we have examples of this happening in the gospels, and this gives mad a problem.

 

[musterion]

OK
Regarding the healing, it's obvious some of you are going to see a progressive healing of bad spinal injury as a faith failure, and if I fail to recover completely, it is a faith failure

According to the Word's description of the apostolic gift, which you want us to believe is 100% operative today, it absolutely is a failure. You have provided the best proof possible that pentecostalism is nothing but delusion and fraud.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

As I said, the big difference is that David didn't experience salvation by grace through faith, otherwise he wan't under the law. He foresaw it. For David it was a future hope, but for us it is a present reality.

Why did you just ignore this verse which demonstrates that the believers who lived under the law were saved by grace?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

You even admit that Peter, who lived under the law, was saved by grace.

Forgiveness is not based on the believing of Christ's identity alone.

You are wrong, as witnessed by Peter's words here:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

The Jews who believed in the Lord Jesus' name were born of God when they believed:

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

It's what his identity makes him qualified to do.

No, those who believe that He is the Christ, the Son of God, receive life when they are born of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

So this is where your problem lies. If people under the law were freed from the condemnation of the law, they were no longer held captive by it.

The fact of the matter is that the believers who lived under the law were no longer judged by the law in regard to their righteousness:

"For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).​

Peter was saved by grace and therefore "works" of the law played no part in his salvation:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8).​

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Today, if you have an illness it's best to pray: "If it's thy will Father in Heaven, please heal me, if not then, please give me the strength to endure it."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Charismatic types depend mainly on their feelings and emotions.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Remember, Pharoahs "Court Magicians" were able to show forth what appeared to be miraculous. However, they weren't performing their feat by the will of God. Satan can counterfeit certain things, as well.

 

[andyc]

According to the Word's description of the apostolic gift, which you want us to believe is 100% operative today, it absolutely is a failure. You have provided the best proof possible that pentecostalism is nothing but delusion and fraud.

Mat 17:18-20
Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour. Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not cast it out?" So Jesus said to them, "Because of your unbelief

2 Timothy 4:20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick.

Phil 2:26-27
Yet I considered it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker, and fellow soldier, but your messenger and the one who ministered to my need; since he was longing for you all, and was distressed because you had heard that he was sick. For indeed he was sick almost unto death; but God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

Galatians 4:13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first.

Galatians 4:15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.

Matthew 13:58 Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.



Mustyboy is fashionably proven wrong again.

Two smashed vertebrae that were so unstable they were hitting against nerves, and causing terrible agony. Having refused spinal fusion surgery, and ignoring that I would be in bed for 12 weeks before the bones might heal. Able to walk within a week, and back at work within 4 weeks without wearing a back brace, not to mention overcoming painkilling withdrawals within 24 hours.

Musty see's this as a total failure of a testimony. What a hardhearted closed minded guy LOL

 

[Right Divider]

Two smashed vertebrae that were so unstable they were hitting against nerves, and causing terrible agony. Having refused spinal fusion surgery, and ignoring that I would be in bed for 12 weeks before the bones might heal. Able to walk within a week, and back at work within 4 weeks without wearing a back brace, not to mention overcoming painkilling withdrawals within 24 hours.

And according to you, this is a miraculous faith healing?

Many unbelievers heal in a similar manner.

The healings by Jesus and the twelve never took anywhere near that long.

 

[andyc]

Why did you just ignore this verse which demonstrates that the believers who lived under the law were saved by grace?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

You even admit that Peter, who lived under the law, was saved by grace.

The promise is the Holy Spirit. Abraham would become a Father of many nations when spiritual children of all nations would be born as a result of his descendant according to the flesh - Christ. The promise of the Holy Spirit was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost to the Jews, and at Cornelius' house for the gentiles.
When the Holy Spirit enters people (Jews and gentiles) as a result of faith in Christ, they become a new creation. Spiritual children who are the seed of Abraham.

You are wrong, as witnessed by Peter's words here:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

The Jews who believed in the Lord Jesus' name were born of God when they believed:

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

Complete nonsense!

When people believe in Jesus' name, they are accepting that it is through him alone that the benefits of the gospel message are received.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.

This simply means that salvation cannot be found in anyone person/name other than Christ, and so his name will be preached to anyone and everyone as the only answer for the forgiveness of sins, and the way to eternal life.

No, those who believe that He is the Christ, the Son of God, receive life when they are born of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

It is only once a person is born of God or receives revelation, that they are able to accept that Christ is the Son of God. You have it back to front.
Faith in Christ as savior/healer leads to the revelation of his eternal identity.

The fact of the matter is that the believers who lived under the law were no longer judged by the law in regard to their righteousness:

"For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).​

Peter was saved by grace and therefore "works" of the law played no part in his salvation:

Which obviously means he was no longer under the law after believing in Jesus, and this goes against mad.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8).

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

Which means that faith in Christ is the end of the law for Jews and gentiles, even during the gospel period.

 

[andyc]

And according to you, this is a miraculous faith healing?

Many unbelievers heal in a similar manner.

The healings by Jesus and the twelve never took anywhere near that long.

Why did you ignore the verses I posted that show instances that prove you wrong?

 

[andyc]

Galatians 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 4:13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first.

Miracles were being worked among the Galatians, but Paul was suffering physically when he preached the gospel to them.
So according to you madists, Paul was a conman with a failed gospel. He believed in and preached healing, but he wasn't healed miraculously straight away.

You guys have no understanding whatsoever.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Galatians 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 4:13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first.

Miracles were being worked among the Galatians, but Paul was suffering physically when he preached the gospel to them.
So according to you madists, Paul was a conman with a failed gospel. He believed in and preached healing, but he wasn't healed miraculously straight away.

You guys have no understanding whatsoever.

To my recollection, Paul was never healed of the affliction he prayed about on three different occasions.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

If Paul still had the gift of healing, why did he say this in 1 Timothy 5:23 "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

 

[musterion]

Many unbelievers heal in a similar manner.

Yep, meant to mention that yesterday. Spontaneous unexplained progress and healings have been documented among rank unbelievers. But that's still beside the real point...I doubt few believers think God NEVER heals people. Only an idiot would say He can't. But the issue here is His use of HEALERS, as during the Gospels and Acts.

Andy, why hasn't a person with the gift of healing healed you? You must surely know one.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Your unbelief in the Word isn't my problem.



Yes we do! His completed, sufficient Word, which your judaized cult and its all-powerful idol of emotional highs only gives lip service to.

The problem with you charismatics is always the same. Either you're bored with Scripture, you don't really believe it, or you don't understand it. Whichever is the case, you're always on the lookout for newer and bigger experiences because you are unsatisfied with the Bible alone. Then you refer to the Bible only as a prooftext and justification of whatever new thing your tickled ears chased after. You're all like Israel of old...faithless and whoring because God's faithful Word to you just ain't enough.

Besides...you have a murderous heart so you have no business correcting anyone else on anything.

I am not even a charismatic, just a simple believer of Jesus.

You claim to know that I have a murderous heart?

What lying spirit told you that?

Your post is sufficient evidence that you are merely a religious man who hates the disciples of Christ and anything He does for them.

Why not become filled with the Spirit of Gods love instead of hating Charismatics and lying about others who love Christ and His word.

LA

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I am not even a charismatic, just a simple believer of Jesus.

:chuckle:

 

[Right Divider]

Why did you ignore the verses I posted that show instances that prove you wrong?

Because I was focusing on your "miraculous" recovery.

 

[Right Divider]

Yep, meant to mention that yesterday. Spontaneous unexplained progress and healings have been documented among rank unbelievers. But that's still beside the real point...I doubt few believers think God NEVER heals people. Only an idiot would say He can't. But the issue here is His use of HEALERS, as during the Gospels and Acts.

Andy, why hasn't a person with the gift of healing healed you? You must surely know one.

They always revert to that general "lack of faith" thing.

But I noticed that there was a man in the Bible that had tremendous faith and could heal mightily in the early part of his ministry. But years later he was recommending wine for stomach problems and leaving his friends sick in a far away city.

None of that reminds me of Acts 5, where they healed every one.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I am not even a charismatic, just a simple believer of Jesus.

You claim to know that I have a murderous heart?

What lying spirit told you that?



Your post is sufficient evidence that you are merely a religious man who hates the disciples of Christ and anything He does for them.

Why not become filled with the Spirit of Gods love instead of hating Charismatics and lying about others who love Christ and His word.

LA

You meant to say, you're just "Simple minded."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The promise is the Holy Spirit. Abraham would become a Father of many nations when spiritual children of all nations would be born as a result of his descendant according to the flesh - Christ.

Once again you just completely IGNORED this verse that tells us that the believers who lived under the Law were saved by grace:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Evidently you have no answer to that so I guess that you are in the hope that it will just go away. I also said this:

The Jews who believed in the Lord Jesus' name were born of God when they believed:

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

To this you said:

Complete nonsense!

When people believe in Jesus' name, they are accepting that it is through him alone that the benefits of the gospel message are received.

Even though the verse says clearly that it was those who believed in the Lord Jesus' "NAME" who were born of God you deny that truth.

Please tell me the gospel message which was being preached here:

And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick... And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where" (Lk.9:2,6).​

We know that this is not the gospel which proclaims that Christ died for our sins because at that time of Luke 9 they didn't even know that Christ was to die:

"Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished...And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken" (Lk.18:31,33-34).​

So tell me what gospel message which they were preaching.

It is only once a person is born of God or receives revelation, that they are able to accept that Christ is the Son of God. You have it back to front.

Of course you failed to address this passage which reveals that "life" comes as a "result" of believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

So we can understand that the "life" which those who believed in the identity of the Lord Jesus, that He is the Christ, the Son of God, was realized when they were born of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

Which obviously means he was no longer under the law after believing in Jesus, and this goes against mad.

No, Peter believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, during the Lord's ministry (Mt.16:16) and therefore he received new life when he was born of God. And despite what you say he continued living under the law.

Since Peter believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, he was no longer under the demands of the law in regard to establishing his own righteousness:

"For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).​

You even admit that Peter was saved by grace and we know that "grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8).​

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

Now a question for you, Andy. We know that the Jews who lived under the law were saved during the ministry of the Lord Jesus (Jn.1:11-13;Lk.7:49). Were they saved by grace through faith? Let me give you a little hint:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​