ECT MAD error #433: That Israel was offered a restored state

[Interplanner]

Well, let's go back to the David stuff as it started in Lk 20. Don't you see that it was a mistake to think that Christ was David's son 'as we know it'? That's the point, the distinction of the exchange. You 2P2Ps are running around here thinking it is all going to unfold in the most ordinary Judaic sense, and he keeps saying that is not what any of it is like. It is not any of those terms as we know them--kingdom, throne, David, homes, families, etc. That is why he can enter 'triumphantly' into Jerusalem on a baby donkey, unarmed, but with believers who are singing the entry Psalm about him! Because that was all that was needed in 'earthly' terms. It was a completely different form of rule and reign.

Which turned out to be too much for old Judas to absorb and so he took for money.

 

[Interplanner]

Are you really not going to realize that the pair of declarations of Rom 1 about son of David and son of God are framed the way they are? He was told beforehand in the prophetic scriptures that he was the son in each case, and this has all been confirmed. It has been fulfilled. But how surprisingly. Where's the goods? They are in Christ and seen by faith brightly. They are:

the grace and apostleship to call the nations to faith and obedience in Christ! The whole game has changed, brother. It always was about the mission to the nations with the Gospel. That is the type of reign being spread. He is saying it is fulfilled; you are deep in the veiled OT thinking it is not.

The David descendancy keeps mattering because he does mean to connect to it and say it is here. That is why you will find it in Acts 13 (contrasted with the type of kingdom David's purpose was about), but in casual references like 2 Tim 2:8. 'Raised from the dead, descended from David.' It's one and the same. Salvation did come through the Jews, but never to be terminated there.

We are talking about something that had white-hot friction in the 1st century setting. All Judaism was insensed that anyone would claim that this Christ as known in the Gospel would called the son of David. So it is no small risk for Paul to repeat that as shortly as he did.

 

[Interplanner]

Thus it was totally subversive to teach that "Jesus was the Christ." Because you would be teaching that his resurrection was the enthronement mentioned in Ps 2 and that he was the Christ known as the son of David, but obviously predating that title. Both were worth your house being torched. Or seized, or other losses.

 

[Right Divider]

Are you so unfamiliar with the NT that you don't know these are all there?

I'm quite familiar with the entire Bible, Mr. Vague Nonquoter.

You're what might be called an elephant hurler. Don't just throw out entire chapters as if you know what you're talking about. Give us the DETAILS so that we can actually have an intelligent dialog.

You've already shown that you're willing to twist and MIS-quote the scripture. So get with it or get lost.

 

[Interplanner]

I'm quite familiar with the entire Bible, Mr. Vague Nonquoter.

You're what might be called an elephant hurler. Don't just through out entire chapters as if you know what you're talking about. Give us the DETAILS so that we can actually have an intelligent dialog.

You've already shown that you're willing to twist and MIS-quote the scripture. So get with it or get lost.

You're quite afraid of what you'll find but you don't need to be.

Since I don't know what exactly could be unclear to you (except that it is not 2P2P D'ism) please say exactly what is the problem...for one, with Lk 20 on the exchange about the son of David?

Or, say what you think is the climax of the sermon in Acts 13.

I've never heard of elephant hurlers before so, no, I'm not what YOU call that!

 

[steko]

You're quite afraid of what you'll find....

:chuckle: Nah!

 

[Right Divider]

You're quite afraid of what you'll find but you don't need to be.

I'm not the slightest bit afraid of anything. Rhetoric like ^^^ shows that you have nothing but nonsense to spout. You're a cheap two-bit conman.

Since I don't know what exactly could be unclear to you (except that it is not 2P2P D'ism) please say exactly what is the problem...for one, with Lk 20 on the exchange about the son of David?

Go back to that PREVIOUS post and quote SPECIFIC verses as opposed to your rhetorical tricks, like shotgun blasting chapters and books.

Or, say what you think is the climax of the sermon in Acts 13.

You FIXATE on a few passages that you don't even understand. Sorry, I'm not impressed.

I've never heard of elephant hurlers before so, no, I'm not what YOU call that!

It means you just throw tons of stuff out and hope to impress. We are not impressed.

P.S. When are you going to get to Isaiah 60?

 

[Crucible]

Time is utterly relative, but can exist both independently or not at all according to many theories.

Just thought I'd bring that up, seeing the subject of time on here

 

[Interplanner]

RD,
besides not knowing about the thread on Is 60, I don't think you've seen #161 and #162 here.

Please bear in mind that if a statement does not drip with 2P2P D'ism, it may not occur to you what is being said.

the Acts 13 sermon is 'not a few verses.' It's the whole scope of Israel. Its destiny. Lots to absorb.

 

[Right Divider]

RD,
besides not knowing about the thread on Is 60, I don't think you've seen #161 and #162 here.

Please bear in mind that if a statement does not drip with 2P2P D'ism, it may not occur to you what is being said.

the Acts 13 sermon is 'not a few verses.' It's the whole scope of Israel. Its destiny. Lots to absorb.

I did NOT say "a few verses", I said A FEW PASSAGES.

Just another confirmation that, either:

• You don't pay attention
• You're stupid
• You're deceitful

Take your pick.

Yes, indeed Paul is giving a history lesson to people in a synagogue. There is nothing there like God putting a complete end to Israel's place on earth. Paul writes later about their future salvation in Romans 11.

 

[Interplanner]

I did NOT say "a few verses", I said A FEW PASSAGES.

Just another confirmation that, either:

• You don't pay attention
• You're stupid
• You're deceitful

Take your pick.

Yes, indeed Paul is giving a history lesson to people in a synagogue. There is nothing there like God putting a complete end to Israel's place on earth. Paul writes later about their future salvation in Romans 11.

You're quite a mouthful.

The previous posts and the other thread are several passages, so pay attention.

In neither Acts 13, 26 nor anywhere in Hebrews (!) is anything said about future restoration of Israel as you thinking of it. It should be, because of the scope of questions about Israel taken up in them, right? But it is not. It is never a factor. Paul says nothing about it, even in the intensity of the hearing of 26. What does that tell you, Mr. Attention and Mr. Not Stupid?

Actually what grasps me even more is 26:22's line about 'not going beyond.' Watch closely: he says the Christ was prophesied to come, to die, and that the light of his Gospel would be proclaimed to the nations. Paul knew he was not to speak beyond that. there is nothing beyond that. Apparently, if you go beyond that, you are over the edge from the apostle's official message. Because in 7 he had already said that what the 12 tribes seek to be fulfilled has already come in Christ.

I'm not sure what you have invested in a restored kingdom, but it is worth ripping away at the Gospel to you, isn't it? You can't stand to have the Gospel be the focus. To have the Gospel be the focus is to have the mission be in focus.

btw, if you are paying ATTENTION to "saved" in Romans, it is never about a restoration of a theocracy for Israel. The whole "Israel" (Jew and Gentile) will be justified from their sins; that is what excites Paul while quoting Isaiah there. But the sound byte 'all Israel saved' is not about the nation being back in their land, not in that context nor anywhere in Paul. In fact, he knows the opposite is about to happen; the decimation.

Let me put it this way, if he knew what he did about the desolation of the country coming in a decade (and he did), and never said that all that would be turned around (he didn't), then "saved" would not be the turning-around of that. It would just have the plain meaning that is there since ch 5 or 8 or 10. Justification from sins, and the personal tranformation which that generates. And working in that mission, whether a person has 1, 5 or 10 minas to work with.

"Nothing there like God putting a complete end."
You must know by now that there are two ends. One is the country under the zealots. It will burn.
The other is those Jews who became missionaries of the Gospel.
Paul's frustration, already expressed in the follow up of Acts 13, then again to the end (cp 28's last quote) is that they won't join him, which means they will probably die in the Jewish Revolt of the zealots.
The mission continues on to this day. There is nothing for or about the nation. It was an effort starting in the 1900s in Europe as Jews were tired of being outside, and wondering if they should resume temple worship. They didn't read the letter to Hebrews very much, did they?

 

[Right Divider]

You're quite a mouthful.

The previous posts and the other thread are several passages, so pay attention.

In neither Acts 13, 26 nor anywhere in Hebrews (!) is anything said about future restoration of Israel as you thinking of it. It should be, because of the scope of questions about Israel taken up in them, right? But it is not. It is never a factor. Paul says nothing about it, even in the intensity of the hearing of 26. What does that tell you, Mr. Attention and Mr. Not Stupid?

Actually what grasps me even more is 26:22's line about 'not going beyond.' Watch closely: he says the Christ was prophesied to come, to die, and that the light of his Gospel would be proclaimed to the nations. Paul knew he was not to speak beyond that. there is nothing beyond that. Apparently, if you go beyond that, you are over the edge from the apostle's official message. Because in 7 he had already said that what the 12 tribes seek to be fulfilled has already come in Christ.

I'm not sure what you have invested in a restored kingdom, but it is worth ripping away at the Gospel to you, isn't it? You can't stand to have the Gospel be the focus. To have the Gospel be the focus is to have the mission be in focus.

btw, if you are paying ATTENTION to "saved" in Romans, it is never about a restoration of a theocracy for Israel. The whole "Israel" (Jew and Gentile) will be justified from their sins; that is what excites Paul while quoting Isaiah there. But the sound byte 'all Israel saved' is not about the nation being back in their land, not in that context nor anywhere in Paul. In fact, he knows the opposite is about to happen; the decimation.

Let me put it this way, if he knew what he did about the desolation of the country coming in a decade (and he did), and never said that all that would be turned around (he didn't), then "saved" would not be the turning-around of that. It would just have the plain meaning that is there since ch 5 or 8 or 10. Justification from sins, and the personal tranformation which that generates. And working in that mission, whether a person has 1, 5 or 10 minas to work with.

"Nothing there like God putting a complete end."
You must know by now that there are two ends. One is the country under the zealots. It will burn.
The other is those Jews who became missionaries of the Gospel.
Paul's frustration, already expressed in the follow up of Acts 13, then again to the end (cp 28's last quote) is that they won't join him, which means they will probably die in the Jewish Revolt of the zealots.
The mission continues on to this day. There is nothing for or about the nation. It was an effort starting in the 1900s in Europe as Jews were tired of being outside, and wondering if they should resume temple worship. They didn't read the letter to Hebrews very much, did they?

Until you give me a through and complete examination of Isaiah 60, I will not listen to any more of your repeated nonsense.

Here is the whole thing, since it seems to be missing from your Bible.

Isa 60:1-22 (AKJV/PCE)​

(60:1) Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. (60:2) For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. (60:3) And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. (60:4) Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at [thy] side. (60:5) Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. (60:6) The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD. (60:7) All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory. (60:8) Who [are] these [that] fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? (60:9) Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee. (60:10) And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. (60:11) Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that [men] may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and [that] their kings [may be] brought. (60:12) For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, [those] nations shall be utterly wasted. (60:13) The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. (60:14) The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. (60:15) Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through [thee], I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. (60:16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. (60:17) For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. (60:18) Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. (60:19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. (60:20) Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. (60:21) Thy people also [shall be] all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. (60:22) A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time. ​

 

[Interplanner]

Until you give me a through and complete examination of Isaiah 60, I will not listen to any more of your repeated nonsense.

Here is the whole thing, since it seems to be missing from your Bible.

Isa 60:1-22 (AKJV/PCE)​

(60:1) Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. (60:2) For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. (60:3) And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. (60:4) Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at [thy] side. (60:5) Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. (60:6) The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD. (60:7) All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory. (60:8) Who [are] these [that] fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? (60:9) Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee. (60:10) And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. (60:11) Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that [men] may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and [that] their kings [may be] brought. (60:12) For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, [those] nations shall be utterly wasted. (60:13) The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. (60:14) The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. (60:15) Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through [thee], I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. (60:16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. (60:17) For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. (60:18) Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. (60:19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. (60:20) Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. (60:21) Thy people also [shall be] all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. (60:22) A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time. ​

I see, your conception of me is that I can't even find it! When you give more credit than that you'll be doing well. You asked for comments on things from 60 and beyond, which I did, trying to keep it short.

If all you are going to do mentally is keep pasting "that's nonsense, you're an idiot" why not just set up a micro program and go have fun?

These chapters are about the Servant Messiah. The New covenant has just been announced, which he brought, and the spirit of God is in the mouths of his followers (end of 59).

when you see other countries named in these chapters, the important thing is that they are beyond Israel. That's why they are interchangeable with the distant shores and islands in most of 40+.

Eph 5:14 uses 60:1 about the way the church spreads the light of Christ.

Lk 1:78 uses some of 60 about the light of Christ shining on all those in darkness, the same way that Mt 4 used Is 9.

Jn 1:14 uses the arising glory about the work of Christ as well.

The expression about gold and incense being brought to Messiah in Mt 2 has its roots in Is 60:6.

In 19-21 there are themes that show up in the NHNE and alluded to in 2 Pet 3:13. The home of righteousness etc. The Rev 20, 21 obviously uses the Lord himself as the light and glory of the new place he will create.

In ch 61 it is seamlessly back into material used by Christ himself about his ministry. The day of vengeance of our God is the DofJ, Lk 21.

As mentioned before in my idiotic nonsense, there are groups in Judaism who are so literal that they have named sections of the perimeter of Jerusalem 'Praise' and 'Salvation' when God meant these to be intangibles that define the new and living and worldwide temple, ie, Christ.

All of this material is about Christ and is true and fulfilled in Him.

 

[Right Divider]

I see, your conception of me is that I can't even find it! When you give more credit than that you'll be doing well. You asked for comments on things from 60 and beyond, which I did, trying to keep it short.

If all you are going to do mentally is keep pasting "that's nonsense, you're an idiot" why not just set up a micro program and go have fun?

I do not recall calling you an idiot. Please quote that post.

I have called you ignorant on a number of occasions simply because you are.

These chapters are about the Servant Messiah. The New covenant has just been announced, which he brought, and the spirit of God is in the mouths of his followers (end of 59).

when you see other countries named in these chapters, the important thing is that they are beyond Israel. That's why they are interchangeable with the distant shores and islands in most of 40+.

The end of chapter 59 makes it clear that the LORD is talking about Israel and NOT the "Servant Messiah".

Isa 59:20-21 (AKJV/PCE)​

(59:20) ¶ And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. (59:21) As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
​

Eph 5:14 uses 60:1 about the way the church spreads the light of Christ.

So any time that Paul quotes OT it makes the body of Christ part of Israel?

Isa 60:11-16 (AKJV/PCE)​

(60:11) Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that [men] may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and [that] their kings [may be] brought. (60:12) For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, [those] nations shall be utterly wasted. (60:13) The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. (60:14) The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. (60:15) Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through [thee], I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. (60:16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. ​

​

This is CLEARLY speaking to ISRAEL. Isaiah was a prophet of ISRAEL.

Lk 1:78 uses some of 60 about the light of Christ shining on all those in darkness, the same way that Mt 4 used Is 9.

Jn 1:14 uses the arising glory about the work of Christ as well.

The expression about gold and incense being brought to Messiah in Mt 2 has its roots in Is 60:6.

Gee boy golly! The scripture about Christ's ministry to ISRAEL quotes prophets of ISRAEL talking about things pertaining to ISRAEL.

I'm STUNNED....

 

[Interplanner]

I do not recall calling you an idiot. Please quote that post.

I have called you ignorant on a number of occasions simply because you are.


The end of chapter 59 makes it clear that the LORD is talking about Israel and NOT the "Servant Messiah".

Isa 59:20-21 (AKJV/PCE)​

(59:20) ¶ And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. (59:21) As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
​

So any time that Paul quotes OT it makes the body of Christ part of Israel?

Isa 60:11-16 (AKJV/PCE)​

(60:11) Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that [men] may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and [that] their kings [may be] brought. (60:12) For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, [those] nations shall be utterly wasted. (60:13) The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. (60:14) The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. (60:15) Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through [thee], I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. (60:16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. ​

​

This is CLEARLY speaking to ISRAEL. Isaiah was a prophet of ISRAEL.


Gee boy golly! The scripture about Christ's ministry to ISRAEL quotes prophets of ISRAEL talking about things pertaining to ISRAEL.

I'm STUNNED....

Sorry but the whole thing is about Messiah and how it is true in him. That's how the NT uses it, not in the veiled sense for Israel. That's who his Servant turns out to be. You have to recall that he saw this against a 'flat' background where Israel was going back to its land through Cyrus decree. But way too much happens to be confined to Israel, and there are passages that say so. "It is too small a thing to restore Israel; I will make you a light to the nations."

So the whole thing is like that passage in Malachi when he laments that the piddly restored temple was nothing compared to Solomon's. Yet what was coming would be greater (and Jesus has a line like that about Solomon and ___).

The end of Is 59 is about Messiah; he was the Redeemer who came to Zion. Paul is quoting all that as fulfilled. It is not about a future event; it is the salvation that 'all Israel' gets: the cancellation of sins, the new hearts, the new covenant in Christ.

Yes on the passages are actually about the new Israel in Christ. That passage about the 'wasting of the nations' is not for Israel's security. It is like Rev 21 when the word of Christ defeats all the enemies of believers right before the NHNE.

You must not know of the new Zion and mountain and city of God like Hebrews does. This is the culmination of the ages, man. This is what these expressions are about. There is no messy back and forth or two separate outcomes for two separate peoples.

There is nothing exclusively done for Israel, as we know from all conversations Jesus had with non-Jews, like Jn 4. Yes, salvation comes through the Jews but not terminating there; it is world wide all through. Since the promises in Genesis to Abraham, to Daniel 2's kingdom that fills the whole world, to 'good will to all men' to Gal 3. Indeed.

You should be stunned; you've been sold a fraud of things supposedly about Israel which are mere dangling soundbytes in a NT that is crammed with God's salvation for all mankind, apart from the law.

The very way Israel was going to be a light to the world was in Christ's light, Acts 13:47. Too bad so few accepted and realized it.

Eph 5:14 speaks for itself. That is exactly how Paul quotes it. There is another Israel that is both Jew and Gentile and these visions are fulfilled in its mission right through today.

 

[Interplanner]

Maybe RD you didn't say idiot. It was prob stupid, which is soooooo much more kind.

 

[Right Divider]

Sorry but the whole thing is about Messiah and how it is true in him. That's how the NT uses it, not in the veiled sense for Israel. That's who his Servant turns out to be. You have to recall that he saw this against a 'flat' background where Israel was going back to its land through Cyrus decree. But way too much happens to be confined to Israel, and there are passages that say so. "It is too small a thing to restore Israel; I will make you a light to the nations."

So the whole thing is like that passage in Malachi when he laments that the piddly restored temple was nothing compared to Solomon's. Yet what was coming would be greater (and Jesus has a line like that about Solomon and ___).

The end of Is 59 is about Messiah; he was the Redeemer who came to Zion. Paul is quoting all that as fulfilled. It is not about a future event; it is the salvation that 'all Israel' gets: the cancellation of sins, the new hearts, the new covenant in Christ.

Yes on the passages are actually about the new Israel in Christ. That passage about the 'wasting of the nations' is not for Israel's security. It is like Rev 21 when the word of Christ defeats all the enemies of believers right before the NHNE.

You must not know of the new Zion and mountain and city of God like Hebrews does. This is the culmination of the ages, man. This is what these expressions are about. There is no messy back and forth or two separate outcomes for two separate peoples.

There is nothing exclusively done for Israel, as we know from all conversations Jesus had with non-Jews, like Jn 4. Yes, salvation comes through the Jews but not terminating there; it is world wide all through. Since the promises in Genesis to Abraham, to Daniel 2's kingdom that fills the whole world, to 'good will to all men' to Gal 3. Indeed.

You should be stunned; you've been sold a fraud of things supposedly about Israel which are mere dangling soundbytes in a NT that is crammed with God's salvation for all mankind, apart from the law.

The very way Israel was going to be a light to the world was in Christ's light, Acts 13:47. Too bad so few accepted and realized it.

Eph 5:14 speaks for itself. That is exactly how Paul quotes it. There is another Israel that is both Jew and Gentile and these visions are fulfilled in its mission right through today.

Since you just continue to project your opinions on the scripture, even when it is clearly shown to you.... I'm done with you. Go ahead and remain in your ignorance.

 

[Danoh]

Maybe RD you didn't say idiot. It was prob stupid, which is soooooo much more kind.

Never mind your own duplicity, ay IP :chuckle:

 

[Right Divider]

Maybe RD you didn't say idiot. It was prob stupid, which is soooooo much more kind.

Instead of GUESSING, why don't you put up or shut up?

Typical stuff from someone that plays fast and loose with the facts. :think:

 

[Interplanner]

Since you just continue to project your opinions on the scripture, even when it is clearly shown to you.... I'm done with you. Go ahead and remain in your ignorance.

What exactly? I don't know one thing here that is not there in the text. And, opinion is only wrong if it is not adhering closely; you have opinions too, so don't put yourself on a pedestal so easily.

Are you are aware of how "the Servant" takes over things in Is 40-66?

What is the veil Paul is talking about in 2 Cor 3-5, and how could it be anything other than thinking all this (material in Isaiah) is not about Christ--the way he does in gobs of quotes?