Originally posted by Polycarp
There is just one problem with your statements. None of them are true. Your false accusations are part of the usual demonization of orthodox Christianity in the first centuries in order to justify your theology. The JW's, Adventism and Armstrongism and all the cults use this exact same nonsense to justify their erroneous beliefs. While the words of Christ declare exactly the opposite of your teachings. Christ openly and boldly declared that the Church could NOT and WOULD NOT apostacize.
Look...you apparently aren't too familiar with history..even though you claim otherwise.
Are you saying that all those things did not happen? It's all a lie that there were inquisitions despotic heathen Popes, that the politics of the "church" did not become corrupt until it was obvious that reformation was needed?
It is no false accusation!
And I don't give a flyin' fig what JW's, Adventism, or Armstrongism does. This IS a false accusation to lump what I'm saying in with cults teachings to cause people to reject what I'm saying out of fear of deception.
Now..as far as there being a devilish coup de' atat within the church institution....try this on for size:
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
It's Ok if you don't like what I'm saying. But don't think I don't know what I'm talking about!
You must first demonize Josephus and the scriptures because they both use the exact same language and theology to speak of everlasting torment.
I demonized no one. I merely wrote facts about history.
They DON"T use the exact same language and theology to speak of everlating torment. They used a LATIN translation that altered the meaning of scripture compared to the original hebrew and greek. Only then did eternal conscious torment even BEGIN to be accepted, and many more centuries passed before it was enforced (under threat of excommunication or even torture/death) as the only true doctrine..and then ensued the Dark Ages.
Good luck. The volume of history is against you. You don't have an ounce of proof that the Church falsified any of the early writings.
They did cover things up pretty well.
That is just bunk. They all stand in harmony with the scriptures and Josephus, the earliest of writings. Only the cults are the ones who make the claims you have.
Only the cults....
See what a wonderful tactic this bit of wonderful rhetoric is!
"It's all bunk...only the cults believe what you do"
Using this tactic, you can really steer people any way you want them to go. Cause them to listen to no-one but those you say can be trusted.
I'll let those reading this decide what is true and what is false.
As far as it being "only the cults" that question the monterous doctrine of eternal conscious torment...let's see, shall we?
Religious men and women have often been guilty of changing the meaning of words that at one time were perfectly good words, but became sources of confusion after the theologians twisted them. Such is the word "cult".
Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Fifth edition, defines a cult:
1. "A system of worship of a deity; as, the cult of Apollo. 2. Hence: a) the rites of a religion. b) great devotion to some person, idea, or thing, esp. such devotion viewed as an intellectual fad. c) a sect."
Webster's definition is a perfect definition of every denomination of Christianity, that is, a system of worship, great devotion to a person, and a sect.
With that in mind, why do mainline Christian organizations always label those who are not in their systems "cults" meaning it in a derrogatory way, when in fact they themselves perfectly fit the true meaning of the word "cult?"
But beyond that..It is amazing to me that the defining doctrine in this instance is what is believed about Hell..and that you MUST believe in eternal conscious torment...and if you don't you are a nutball and part of a "cult".
Thousands of people in ages past HAVE asked these questions and have come to
the logical Scriptural conclusion that the traditional teaching of Hell is a plain unadulterated lie of the highest magnitude. Men and women like
Abraham Lincoln, Florence Nightingale, Charles Dickens, Benjamin Rush (signer of the Declaration of Independence) asked questions like the ones above and reasonably concluded that Jesus IS the Savior of the whole world, not just a piece of it. After all, how can one be called the "Savior of the world" unless one actually saves it?
Great theologians and scholars have also come to the same conclusion. Among them are
William Barclay, William Law, Karl Barth, Schliermacher, Bishop Westcott, Lightfoot, Canon F.W. Farrar, John A.T. Robinson, Andrew Murray and Andrew Jukes. Some of the greatest writers and poets are in the "Cloud of Witnesses" to the glorious truth of the salvation of all mankind through our glorious savior Jesus Christ.
Elizabeth Browing, John Donne, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Harriet Beecher Stowe and countless more.
The list of preachers who have asked these same questions and have come to the reasonable and Scriptural truth that traditional Hell is nothing more than a great lie is endless. They were not afraid to ask their Maker some straight-forward questions.
They invited the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus to lead us all into Truth to make plain to them the Truth concerning the doctrine of Hell. Men and women of all ages have asked these questions AND have received truthful answers to these questions. A man named A.C. Thomas collected some of these questions and they found themselves in a book written in the 1800's entitled: "The Key to Truth" by E. H. Lake. Isn't it time to get the Truth? Here are some of the questions sincere people from all ages have asked which brought them to the truth.
* Do you ardently DESIRE the salvation of all men?
* Is it true that God "openeth his hand and satisfieth the desire of every living thing?" -- (Ps. 145:16)
* Do you fervently PRAY for the salvation of all men? (1 Tim. 2:1)
* Do you pray in FAITH, nothing doubting? (James 1:6)
* Are you aware, "that whatsoever is not of faith is sin?" -- (Rom 14:23)
* Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?
* If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?
+ Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?
+ Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?
+ Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?
+ Since Jesus "tasted death for EVERYONE," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if most are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)
+ If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?
+ Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?
+ Can God WILL anything contrary to His knowledge?
+ Did God know when He created man, that a part of His creatures would be endlessly miserable?
+ If God, when He created, did not know the result of creation, is He infinite in knowledge?
o Power is the ability to do: is knowledge simply the ability to know?
o If God knew when He created man, that some would be eternally damned, did He not will this to be their doom?
o If God willed the endless misery of a part of His creatures, why is it said that "he will have all men to be saved?" -- (1 Tim. 2:4, KJV)
o If the Scriptures should testify, that God "will have all men to be damned," could we really safely assume that a part might be saved?
o If the Scriptures testify, that God "will have all men to be saved," can we safely assume that a part may be damned?
+ If God made an endless hell before He created man, did He know whether there would be any use for it?
+ If God knew there would be use for an endless hell, must He not have created some men for endless misery?
+ If God made an endless hell, was it included in the works which He pronounced "very good?" -- (Gen. 1:31)
+ If there is an endless hell, and it was not made before the creation of men, when was it made?
+ If there exists a personal devil, who made him?
+ Can there be any such thing as sin in heaven?
+ If there was sin in heaven, may not sin be committed there again?
+ If an angel of light became a devil, was not Paul in error, when he said Satan is transformed into an angel of light? -- (2 Cor 11:14)
+ As sin presupposes temptation of some sort, who tempted a holy angel to sin?
+ If an angel could sin without a devil to tempt him, may we not sin without a devil to tempt us?
+ If a holy angel was tempted to sin by surrounding evil, is heaven a holy place?
+ If an angel was tempted by evil passions, could he have been holy?
+ If an angel became a devil by sinning, was Adam's the original sin?
+ If Adam became mortal (that is, subject to death,) by sinning, must he not have been created immortal?
+ If Adam had been created immortal, could he ever have died?
+ If Adam sinned without inheriting total depravity, why should inborn depravity be assigned as the cause of our sins?
+ Would there be any more impropriety in imputing MY sins to Adam, than in imputing HIS sins to ME? (Rom. 5:12)
+ If men are totally depraved by nature, must not children be so likewise?
+ If children be totally depraved, is it true, that "of such is the kingdom of heaven?" -- (Mark 10:14)
+ Men are to be washed from their sins. If they are totally depraved, what is there to wash?
+ If evil men and seducers "wax worse and worse," (2 Tim. 3:13), can they be totally depraved at first?
+ If human reason be "carnal and delusive," why did God say, "come now and let us REASON together?" -- (Isa. 1:18)
+ If reason be delusive, why should some folks reason against the use of reason?
+ Can an effect exist without a cause sufficiently powerful to produce it?
+ If "we love God because he first loved us," is it true that we must first love HIM before He will love us?
+ If "we love God because he first loved us," is it not plain that He loved US when we did not love HIM?
+ If God loved US when we did not love HIM, is not our love to Him the EFFECT (and not the CAUSE) of His love to US?
+ Was it consistent with divine justice, to love us, when we did not love Him?
+ If God once loved us, will not that love eternally continue?
+ If the love of God is the cause which produces love in man, can anger and wrath produce the same effect?
+ Is it the revealed will of God that all men should be saved?
+ Can God will all men to be saved, knowing that a part will be forever lost?
+ If God has two wills, why is double-mindedness condemned in the Scriptures?
+ If God has two wills, why does the Bible say, "He is of one mind?"
+ If God has a secret will, how did you gain a knowledge of it?
+ Can that be a secret which has been revealed?
+ If God revealed His secret will to "the saints," why should they reveal it to "the wicked?"
+ If God under any circumstances, wills the endless misery of a human soul, in what does He differ from Satan?
o Can Jesus Christ be the Savior of any more than He actually saves?
o Can Jesus be "the Savior of the world," (1 John 4:14), if the world is not saved by him?
o Is Christ, in any sense, the Savior of unbelievers?
o If Christ is in no sense the Savior of unbelievers, why are unbelievers called upon to believe in Christ as their Savior?
o If unbelievers are not called upon to believe in Christ as their Savior, what are they to believe?
o Must not the thing to be believed, be true before it is believed?
o Must not the thing to be believed continue to be true, whether it be believed or disbelieved?
o "What if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith, [or faithfulness] of God of none effect?" -- (Rom. 3:3)
o Is it true that "God hath concluded all in unbelief that he might have mercy on all?" -- (Rom 9:32)
o Can God be "especially the Savior of them who believe," unless He is actually the Savior of all? -- (1 Tim. 4:10)
o If belief and good works in this life are essential to eternal salvation in the next, can infants be saved?
o Can the good actions of finite man merit an infinite reward?
o Can the evil actions of finite man merit infinite punishment?
o If men are saved by works, is salvation of grace?
o If one man is saved by grace, why should not all be saved in like manner?
o Is God a partial being?
o Can the faith of the Partialists (believers in Hell or annihilation) be based in the wisdom that is "full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality?" -- (James 3:17)
o Can sufficient provision be made for the salvation of all men, if some men are never saved?
o Must not sufficient provision be sufficient to subdue the will of the creature?
o Is there any other way to determine the sufficiency of the means employed, than by the accomplishment of the end designed?
+ Does not the law of God require all men to love him supremely, and their neighbors as themselves?
+ Is it true, that "not one jot or tittle of this law shall pass till all be fulfilled?" -- (Matt. 5:18)
+ Does not justice require of us the fulfilment of the law of God?
+ Will not justice be eternally violated, if the law of God is not universally fulfilled?
+ Can those who are determined eternally damned fulfil the law of love?
+ Can justice require the obedience of the sinner, and at the same time require his eternal disobedience?
+ If "whosoever offereth praise glorifieth God," (Ps. 50:23), can He be glorified by those who have no cause to praise Him?
+ If any one is rendered eternally damned, can he have any cause to praise His Maker?
+ Will God ever place some of his creatures in such a situation they cannot praise him?
+ Do you believe that endless punishment would manifest the glory of God?
+ Can you rejoice in the hope of the glory of God?
+ Would not the salvation of half of mankind glorify God more than the salvation of one-fourth?
+ Would not the salvation of nine-tenths of mankind glorify God more than the salvation of one-half?
+ Can we give "glory to God in the highest," without believing in the salvation of all men?
+ If "all have sinned, and (thus) come short of the glory of God," (Rom. 3:23), would eternal sinning mend the matter?
+ Shall "every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father?" -- (Philippians 2:11)
+ Is endless misery "good tidings of great joy which shall be to ALL people?"
+ Could man be endlessly miserable without being endlessly a sinner?
+ If sin exist eternally, can it be true that Christ was to finish the transgression, and to make and end of sin? -- (Dan. 9:34)
+ Since Jesus gave himself a ransom for all men, can he ever "see the travail of his soul and be satisfied," if endless misery is true?
+ Do you hope that endless misery is true?
+ Is "faith the substance (or foundation) of things hoped for?" -- (Heb. 11:1)
+ If endless misery is not a thing hoped for, can it be a part of the Christian faith?
+ Is it certain that one soul will be eternally lost?
+ Is it certain that one soul will be saved?
+ Is it certain that all will not be damned?
+ Is it certain that all will not be saved?
+ Can that be certain which is not decreed?
+ If it is certain that one soul will be saved, must there not be a decree concerning the salvation of a definite number?
+ If the number of the saved is definitely fixed, must not the number of the damned be equally definite?
+ If there is no certainty in relation to the final destiny of man, is not salvation a work of chance?
+ What is better chance than Atheism?
+ If God knew, when he created, what the end of each soul would be, is not that end as certain as if it was decreed?
+ Is not the merciful man always merciful to his animals?
+ Will not the merciful God be always as merciful to His creatures, as the merciful man is to his animals?
+ Is it true that the "tender mercies of the Lord are over all his works?" -- (Ps. 145:9)
+ Is it true that the Almighty is without variableness, or the shadow of turning?
+ Would there be any tender mercy in the infliction of endless misery?
+ Are the tender mercies of the Lord like unto the tender mercies of the wicked which are cruel?
+ If God is not the Father of sinners, why should sinners pray, saying, "Our Father, forgive us our trespasses (sins)?"
+ "Have we not all one Father? Hath not one God created us?" -- (Mal. 2:10)
+ If God is the Father of all men, will He do less for His children than earthly parents would do for theirs?
+ Is it true that God punishes us "for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness?" -- (Heb. 12:11)
+ Would endless punishment be for our profit?
+ Would endless punishment "yield the peaceable fruits of righteousness unto them who are exercised thereby?"
+ Can any doctrine be too good to be true?
+ Will God contend forever and be always wroth? -- (Isa. 62:16)
+ Will the Lord cast off forever? -- (Lam. 3:31-33)
+ Can one be a Christian who worships the Lord through fear of the devil?
+ Can one truly be Christian who state that if they believed in the salvation of all mankind, they would go out and sin without fearing consequences of those sins?
+ Can a person really be a Christian who says, "if all men are to be saved, what use is there in being virtuous?"
+ If "the goodness of God leads to repentance," why should His eternal wrath be preached to sinners?
+ If "the goodness of God leads to repentance," why should it not be supposed that repentance leads to the goodness of God?
+ If "the goodness of God leads to repentance," are not sinners the objects of His goodness?
+ Is not the goodness of God co-extensive and co-eternal with His wisdom and power?
+ As the wisdom of God can never change to folly, nor His power to weakness, will His goodness ever change to hatred?
+ Can God be universally and eternally good, if endless misery is true for a single soul?
+ If all men deserve endless punishment, would it not be right for God to inflict it?
+ "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Gen. 18:25)
+ If it would be right for God to punish all men eternally, would it not be wrong for Him not to do it?
+ Since the infliction of endless misery would be returning evil for evil, would it be right for God to inflict it?
+ If the return of evil for evil is right for God, would it not be equally right for man?
+ Since "fear has torment," and true religion is happiness, can fear produce true religion?
+ Since "perfect love casts out fear," will not fear cast out perfect love?
+ Can fear imbue the soul with perfect love?
+ Must not they who "believe and tremble," be possessed of the faith of devils?
+ Is it possible to love someone without truly personally knowing them?
+ Can a person love someone who is endlessly torturing them in a lake of fire and will not give them mercy?
+ So between life here on earth and the Lake of Fire, if Jesus doesn't personally reach someone with His love, how can a person really love Jesus back? (Rom. 5:8-10)
+ Does the belief of endless misery cause the believer to "rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory?" -- (1 Pet. 1:8)
+ Can a belief of any thing short of universal salvation, fill the soul with "joy and peace?"
+ Will not the devil and all his works be destroyed? -- (Heb. 2:14; 1 John 3:8)
+ Will not death, the last enemy, be swallowed up in victory and destroyed? -- (Isa. 25:6-8; 1 Cor. 15:26-54)
And finally:
If God is loving, merciful, wise, always gives "righteous" judgment and is all powerful and has a desire or will to save all mankind (1 Tim 2:3,4) which will come closer to the above attributes?:
A Savior of all mankind?
An eternal torturer of most?
Children, saints, truth-seekers, sinners, universalists and even atheists always get the right answer.
Pharisees, hypocrites, control freaks, hate-mongers, and other sundry snakes always get it wrong.
*********************************************
My conclusion that the modern church concept of God consigning the greatest majority of the human beings He created to everlasting tortures (which is NOT worthy of His honor) does not come from my wishful thinking, but from thousands of hours of studying various English Bible translations, the original languages, early church history, revelation from the Holy Spirit, as well as from a clean conscience and a sound mind. I believe that anyone who truly desires to KNOW God and to honor Him in the earth will undoubtedly come to the same conclusions I and millions of other Christians who have tasted of God's mercy have come to over the last two thousand years...that Jesus is the Savior of all mankind, as the Scriptures plainly declare(John 4:42; 1 John 4:14)…not just a few. The reasons why most Christians in this present age do not see this glorious truth are:
REASONS FOR THE DIFFERENT VIEWS
1. Failure to hold on to clear statements of God’s sovereignty, foreknowledge, power, omniscience, purpose of creation, and unconditional love.
2. Failure to believe direct statements of scripture declaring the ultimate salvation of all through the saving work of Jesus Christ.
3. Pulling scriptures out of context and putting them into an end-time scenario when, in fact, they deal with other ages. Scriptures speak of at least two other ages to come. (Eph. 2:7)
4. Inaccurate and misleading translations. Roman Catholic tradition strongly affected the first Protestant English Bibles which, in turn, adversely affected modern translations.
5. Injection of Roman\Greek concepts which are not Biblical such as the immortality of the soul into the Bible. Adam was removed from the garden lest he eat from the tree of life. He was therefore not immortal. Eternal life is found only "in" Christ, not in Adam. "In Adam all died." (1 Cor. 15:22) If Adam was immortal, how could he die?
6. Bondage to the traditions and teachings of men rather than allowing the Spirit of Truth to lead us into all truth. (John 16:13)
7. Laziness.
8. A hidden desire in many of us to have our enemies get what we feel they deserve while we get off free and clear. (Luke 9:51-56)
9. The desire of religious and government leaders to use fear to maintain control. Love cannot be perfected with fear, therefore, the church has few members whose love is perfected. Perfect love casts out fear! (1 John 4:18)
10. Satan’s power and authority to deceive.
11. Failure to see that "Love never fails," (1Cor. 13:8) His "mercy endures forever," (1 Chron. 16:41) and "mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:13)
12. It's not your time to see. (Acts 13:48, John 6:44)
13. Fear of persecution of men for not going along with the majority view.
14. Misunderstanding of the purpose of God's "remnant," His "chosen people."
Its time to use all our faculties in theological discourse - among these are reason, logic, intelligence..and at last wisdom. When dogma or tradition obscure or violate these.......then its time to repent.