Jehovah Witness Teaching compared with The Bible

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SonOfCaleb,

It doesnt need to explicitly state it. As heaven is a spiritual realm. Fleshly beings cannot enter heaven which is harmonius with what Jesus said in Luke 24:39. Therefore Jesus could only enter Heaven as a spirit.
Whether their vision was obscured by Jesus changing back into a spirit or by the cloud that obscured their vision is immaterial in my opinion. As Jesus didnt enter heaven as a fleshly human being. I believe you're placing too much emphasis on the cloud and missing the more pertient point.

I appreciate your explanation of your view of this, but please do not force your perspective on Acts 1:9-11 where it is silent. I believe that Jesus’ body was resurrected and changed into a Spirit or Spiritual body, a body that does not need air and food to survive, but is a visible body nonetheless. You seem to have a sharp divide between flesh and spirit together with visible and invisible.

Please reconsider the very verse that you use:
Luke 24:36-39 (KJV): 36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luke 24:36-39 (NWT 2013): 36 While they were speaking of these things, he himself stood in their midst and said to them: “May you have peace.” 37 But because they were terrified and frightened, they imagined that they were seeing a spirit. 38 So he said to them: “Why are you troubled, and why have doubts come up in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you see that I have.”
They thought that they had seen a Spirit, but you claim that Spirits are invisible. Also Jesus says “that it is I myself”, but JWs, unless they have changed their teaching, do not believe that the literal body of Jesus was resurrected, and that he could not show them his hands and feet that still had at that time some evidence of the crucifixion. Possibly we could discuss Peter’s quotation and exposition of Psalm 16:10 in Acts 2:31. Did Jesus' body corrupt?

There is no scripture that supports this viewpoint. No human apart from Jesus has entered Heaven so you do not know nor can you know or behold what a spiritual being looks like in spirit form. In fact when you consider the examples of Gideon or Balaam its clear that the spirits they eventually saw had to be in corporeal form in order for them to see them. The scriptures below prove the spirits were not discernable to them.
Numbers 22:30 tells us "Then Jehovah uncovered Baʹlaam’s eyes, and he saw Jehovah’s angel standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand". Balaam as you know was not able to see the Angel until the Angel materialised into a corporeal being and Jehovah allowed Balaam to see his angel.
Judges 6:21 "1 Then Jehovah’s angel stretched out the tip of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unleavened bread, and fire flared up from the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened bread. Jehovah’s angel then vanished from his sight. 22 Gidʹe·on now realized that it was Jehovah’s angel". Gideon likewise had no clue he was talking to an Angel of Jehovah until the Angel disappeared from his sight. These verses prove as you have admitted that Angels must materialise or change into a corporeal form in order to be seen by human beings. And by the word 'materialise' i mean this only as an adjective. You seem to be looking for a deeper esoteric meaning..

Again you claim that a Spirit does not have substance. How do you explain that the donkey was able to see the Angel on each occasion, but Balaam was blind to the Angel blocking their passage?

Human beings are INHERENTLY mortal. Even perfect humans are as evidenced by Christs death. Only spirit beings can be made immortal. Hence why Paul attests to Jesus recieving the gift of immortality upon re-entering heaven. Jesus existed as a spirit in heaven when Paul wrote these words. His human body disposed of.

Jesus’ body was resurrected and changed, not disposed of, or kept in a mausoleum like Lenin.

There is no scripture in the Bible that supports this viewpoint. His immortality was only mentioned by the Apostles AFTER he was raised to heaven.
Again there is no scripture that supports this viewpoint. Even the faithful Angels are mortal beings. The once faithful Angels who rebelled prior to the flood are also mortal hence why their judgement and destruction is spoken of in Revelation. Immortality given by God is obviously a very very unique precious, and exemplary gift for distinguished individuals EG the annointed ones of the 144,000. To think that Jehovah would merely hand that out willy nilly when he hasnt even given immortality to the vast majority of the spirit beings in heaven who serve in his heavenly government is not only illogical its a viewpoint thats simply not harmonius with the bible.

This is part of the difference in our overall view.

If literal Jerusalem was still important to God he wouldnt have abandoned it since 1AD nor allowed its total and finite destruction by the Roman armys in 70CE. The temple there is in ruins and hasnt been rebuilt. Literal Jerusalem is of no consequence to Gods will nor purpose for this Earth and humankind. Either way Jesus as a descendant of David is already enthroned in heaven. Jehovahs government is already established in heaven. That government rules exclusively from heaven as was always intended from Adams creation, the subjects of that kingdom being mankind below on Earth. In fact Paul in Galations refers to this heavenly government as the 'Jerusalem above'. Literal Jerusalem of old merely foreshadowing Gods kingdom in the heavens along with spiritual Israel and the Israel above.

You seem to ignore the detail of Isaiah 2:2-4 and many other prophecies. God’s judgements came on Judah and Jerusalem because they rejected and crucified Jesus and persecuted the Apostles. I am not sure if you have considered Micah 4:1-8, Ezekiel chs. 37-39, Zechariah 14 to name a few.

Its in heaven. And will remain in heaven indefinitely.

How then is it the throne of David, as he will need to be there 2 Samuel 7:12-16. Peter says David had not ascended in his day, thus refuting immortal souls and we agree here. But JWs used to teach that none before John the Baptist will be among the 144,000 in heaven.

We believe ALL earthly governments will be destroyed at the battle of Armageddon. Therefore all current nation states and their governments will cease to exist once destroyed and Jesus rule is established on Earth from heaven. The current nation state of Israel, nor its location, nor the 'Jewish' people, nor literal Jerusalem have any significant to us doctrinally. The majority of Christendom believes that mankinds salvation is tied up in literal Israel. We do NOT believe this at all. Its self evident from the scriptures that literal Israel has zero bearing on Gods will. It was after all 'Israel' who put Jesus to death hence why Gods covenant with Israel ended upon Jesus death when the nation of Israel rejected Jesus and Israel and the temple were utterly destroyed in 70CE.

The 'Great Crowd' as spoken of in Revelation will inhabit the Earth as subjects of the kingdom. The 144,000 anointed ones will rule from heaven with Jesus for the millenium.

I believe in the conversion of a large remnant of Israel at the return of Jesus. We could discuss this further, but this is sufficient for now.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Greetings again SonOfCaleb, I appreciate your explanation of your view of this, but please do not force your perspective on Acts 1:9-11 where it is silent. I

I'm not forcing my perspective. Im telling you what we as a religion believe.

but JWs, unless they have changed their teaching, do not believe that the literal body of Jesus was resurrected, and that he could not show them his hands and feet that still had at that time some evidence of the crucifixion.

This is incorrect. We believe that Jesus was resurrected back to life as a fleshly human being as per the account in the gospels. We have always believed this so im not sure where or whom you got that incorrect infomation from. 40 days later he ascended to heaven and became a spirit again.

Again you claim that a Spirit does not have substance. How do you explain that the donkey was able to see the Angel on each occasion, but Balaam was blind to the Angel blocking their passage?

The donkey was able to see the Angel because Jehovah allowed it to.

But JWs used to teach that none before John the Baptist will be among the 144,000 in heaven.

Correct. Jesus had announced the new covenant to his disciples on the evening of his last Passover and, just before his ascension which is why John 'the Baptist' doesnt have the heavenly hope.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Correct. Jesus had announced the new covenant to his disciples on the evening of his last Passover and, just before his ascension which is why John 'the Baptist' doesnt have the heavenly hope.

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SonOfCaleb,

I'm not forcing my perspective. Im telling you what we as a religion believe.

You are welcome to hold a view, but surely you do not use Acts 1:9-11 to prove this idea.

This is incorrect. We believe that Jesus was resurrected back to life as a fleshly human being as per the account in the gospels. We have always believed this so im not sure where or whom you got that incorrect infomation from. 40 days later he ascended to heaven and became a spirit again.

Perhaps the more recent JW publications teach what you suggest, but it is incorrect to say “We have always believed this”. Please consider:
Let God be True p276: “This firstborn from the dead was raised from the grave, not a human creature, but a spirit. Hence he was the firstfruits, too, of those who would have a heavenly resurrection, “he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.”
The Truth that leads to Eternal Life p52: “Jehovah God did not leave his Son dead in the grave, but raised him to life on the third day. He was not given human life again, because that would have meant that he was taking back the ransom price. But he was “made alive in the spirit” 1 Peter 3:18. During a period of forty days after his resurrection he appeared visibly to his disciples a number of times, in materialized bodies, to prove that he really had been raised from the dead.”
What does the Bible really teach? p51: "On the third day after Jesus died, Jehovah raised him back to spirit life." (note: this is a recent publication)

The donkey was able to see the Angel because Jehovah allowed it to.

I would like to suggest that Balaam was so blinded by the prospect of fame and riches that he was oblivious to what was going on around him. The donkey speaking did not even awaken him at first, until he realised: This is strange, what’s going on, am I hearing things, my donkey spoke to me. Having in a sense woken up, he at last looked around him and saw the Angel who was visible all the time. That’s how I read this.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Perhaps the more recent JW publications teach what you suggest, but it is incorrect to say “We have always believed this”. Please consider:
Let God be True p276: “This firstborn from the dead was raised from the grave, not a human creature, but a spirit. Hence he was the firstfruits, too, of those who would have a heavenly resurrection, “he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.”
The Truth that leads to Eternal Life p52: “Jehovah God did not leave his Son dead in the grave, but raised him to life on the third day. He was not given human life again, because that would have meant that he was taking back the ransom price. But he was “made alive in the spirit” 1 Peter 3:18. During a period of forty days after his resurrection he appeared visibly to his disciples a number of times, in materialized bodies, to prove that he really had been raised from the dead.”
What does the Bible really teach? p51: "On the third day after Jesus died, Jehovah raised him back to spirit life." (note: this is a recent publication)
I would like to suggest that Balaam was so blinded by the prospect of fame and riches that he was oblivious to what was going on around him. The donkey speaking did not even awaken him at first, until he realised: This is strange, what’s going on, am I hearing things, my donkey spoke to me. Having in a sense woken up, he at last looked around him and saw the Angel who was visible all the time. That’s how I read this.

The above you qouted is correct and doctrinally is exactly what we believe. I was attempting to explain to you what 'form' Jesus was in when he met with his disciples after he was resurrected in view of the context of what you said. He was obviously in human form so the apostles and disciples could see him.

and that he could not show them his hands and feet that still had at that time some evidence of the crucifixion.

The point above we do not agree on which is why i said from our point of view its incorrect. As the gospels tells us clearly that Jesus was in human form because John 20:26-29 tells us:

Next he said to Thomas: “Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop doubting but believe.” 28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Happy are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

In order to do this Jesus was materialised in a human form.

I'm curious though, seeing as you are already au fait with our doctrine on the matter as evidenced by your qoutes above why are you asking me for when you already know our answer?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SonOfCaleb,

This is incorrect. We believe that Jesus was resurrected back to life as a fleshly human being as per the account in the gospels. We have always believed this so im not sure where or whom you got that incorrect infomation from. 40 days later he ascended to heaven and became a spirit again.

The above you quoted is correct and doctrinally is exactly what we believe. I was attempting to explain to you what 'form' Jesus was in when he met with his disciples after he was resurrected in view of the context of what you said. He was obviously in human form so the apostles and disciples could see him.
The point above we do not agree on which is why I said from our point of view its incorrect. As the gospels tells us clearly that Jesus was in human form because John 20:26-29 tells us:
In order to do this Jesus was materialised in a human form.

In the first above my impression was that you were claiming that “Jesus was resurrected back to life as a fleshly human being” and in the second that he was resurrected as a Spirit form and was only seen by the Apostles when he materialised into human form. It is remarkable to say the least that he would on one occasion Luke 24:36-39 materialise a body with wounds and then say “it is I myself”, when the wounds were only re-manufactured to answer Thomas. You also spoke of disposing his human body after being hidden in the clouds at his ascension. You have not explained then what happened to the fleshly human body that was in the tomb, but had disappeared by the third day. Peter states that this body “saw no corruption”. Was this body also disposed? I mentioned earlier Peter’s quotation and exposition of Psalm 16:10 in Acts 2:31. What happened to this human body?

I'm curious though, seeing as you are already au fait with our doctrine on the matter as evidenced by your quotes above why are you asking me for when you already know our answer?

I am comparing the JW teaching with the Bible. I stated in another thread that I disagreed with some of the JW teachings and you invited me to start a thread to discuss these.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SonOfCaleb,

Topic 4: JW Teaching Environment, Literature and The New World Translation

I'm not forcing my perspective. Im telling you what we as a religion believe.

This topic is partly prompted by your statement. My impression is that JWs are expected to adhere to the official JW teachings, partly because they believe that the JW.Org is Spirit established and guided. I am not sure if private study is encouraged, and if a member comes to a conclusion slightly different to the official line, whether he is able to discuss this openly. I did hear from a JW who claimed he was for a time criticised for his view on a matter, but some years later the official view was altered to agree with his view. He remained a JW.

There is an environment that seems to be uniform, based on the teachings established and maintained by literature, uniform teachings from their Kingdom Halls possibly dictated from JW headquaters and partly by some aspects of the NWT.

I have not studied or used the NWT extensively, but the following citations have come to my attention mainly by reading the JW literature and by discussion with JWs.
Genesis 3:1 (KJV): Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Genesis 3:1 (NWT 2013): Now the serpent was the most cautious of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it said to the woman: “Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?”
(Footnote: cautious: Or “shrewdest, craftiest”)

John 1:1 (KJV): In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1 (NWT 2013): In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god.
(Footnote: was a god Or “was divine”)

Revelation 5:9-10 (KJV): 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Revelation 5:9-10 (NWT 2013): 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

In each of the above there is some evidence of JW bias, and I believe that the KJV is more correct in each instance. The environment that uses the NWT may not question the validity of the translation of these verses and a wrong teaching is more liable if a proper examination of each verse is not considered. My suggestion is that although a uniform environment has some merits, there is a danger that individual study and meditation on the Word is stifled.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Tambora]

Remember that time when Russell was on trial in 1913, under oath, and he had to admit that he did not know Greek, nor did the JW translators of the NWT?
The court handed him a Greek new testament and he could not read any of it.
He couldn't even point out the letters of the Greek alphabet.

Now you know why the names of the translators of the NWT are never listed.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SonOfCaleb,

Topic 5: Who is the King of the North?

I'm not forcing my perspective. Im telling you what we as a religion believe.

This is a question that I asked a JW at work many years ago. I will give him a nickname Son of Joshua because he most probably shares your views. I had a few friendly discussions with SoJ, but I moved to a different location, and another workmate in my fellowship continued to discuss with SoJ. We have a traditional view backed up by personal study that the King of the North of Daniel 11:40 and the Rosh of Ezekiel 38:1-2 is Russia. My workmate mentioned this to SoJ in the 1980s, but soon after the USSR broke apart, and SoJ almost laughed at my workmate, suggesting “where is your King of the North now?” Some time later SoJ moved to my location and told me this story, thinking that we had been shown to be wrong in our understanding of these prophecies. I asked SoJ if the JWs had a clear explanation of these prophecies, and at the end of our brief exchange I asked “Who is the King of the North?” At the time SoJ did not give me an answer.

My workmate attends another meeting in our region, but one evening we had a combined Bible Class and he mentioned that he sometimes sees SoJ at a sporting event where they both support family members in friendly rivalry on the sporting field. I haven’t heard if they have resolved some of their differences in a friendly way on the sidelines of the field. By the way, SoJ is very personable, and I have a profound respect for him. He helped me through a difficult circumstance when I was in distress at work, and he took upon himself to protect me when I was in difficulty as a result of my actions. What I had done was as a result of doing the right thing in my estimation, but the way I did it was a bit foolish and wrong. When I could not cope mentally and emotionally he stood in and protected me and took the heat out of the circumstance because of his ability to get along with people, while I was more isolated.

I could go to his house and discuss these matters, or to the local Kingdom Hall, but instead I will ask you SoC, “Who is the King of the North?”

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SonOfCaleb,

Topic 6: The return of the Jews to the Land of Israel

We believe ALL earthly governments will be destroyed at the battle of Armageddon. Therefore all current nation states and their governments will cease to exist once destroyed and Jesus rule is established on Earth from heaven. The current nation state of Israel, nor its location, nor the 'Jewish' people, nor literal Jerusalem have any significant to us doctrinally. The majority of Christendom believes that mankinds salvation is tied up in literal Israel. We do NOT believe this at all. Its self evident from the scriptures that literal Israel has zero bearing on Gods will. It was after all 'Israel' who put Jesus to death hence why Gods covenant with Israel ended upon Jesus death when the nation of Israel rejected Jesus and Israel and the temple were utterly destroyed in 70CE.

I would like to briefly look at a few Scriptures that indicate that the Jews would return to the land before the return of Christ. Earlier I quoted Isaiah 2:1-4 and a very similar quote is Micah 4:1-4, where I believe that Micah is most probably himself quoting Isaiah 2:1-4. The difference between the two is that Micah adds details of the return of the Jews and their conversion to become the first dominion of the Kingdom of God:
Micah 4:6-8 (KJV): 6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.
Micah 4:6-8 (NWT 2013): 6 “In that day,” declares Jehovah, “I will gather the one who was limping, And collect together the dispersed one, Along with those I treated harshly. 7I will make the one who was limping a remnant, And the one far removed a mighty nation; And Jehovah will rule as king over them in Mount Zion, From now on and forever. 8 As for you, O tower of the flock, The mound of the daughter of Zion, To you it will come, yes, the first dominion will come, The kingdom belonging to the daughter of Jerusalem.
These verses are teaching that in order to fulfil the prophecies of Isaiah 2:1-4 and Micah 4:1-4 the descendants of Jacob need to be regathered and converted to become the first dominion of the Kingdom of God.

Topic 5 introduced the King of the North. The rest of Ezekiel 38 and 39 need to be considered, but notice that the following speaks concerning the return of the Jews to their land before the invasion by the King of the North:
Ezekiel 38:8-12 (KJV): 8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. 9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. 10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: 11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, 12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land..
Ezekiel 38:8-12 (NWT 2013): 8 “You will be given attention after many days. In the final part of the years you will invade the land whose people have been restored from the ravages of the sword, collected together out of many peoples onto the mountains of Israel, which had long been lying devastated. The inhabitants of this land were restored from the peoples, and all of them dwell in security. 9 You will come against them like a storm, and you will cover the land like clouds, you and all your troops and many peoples with you.” 10 “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘In that day thoughts will come into your heart, and you will devise an evil plan. 11 You will say: “I will invade the land of unprotected settlements. I will come against those living in security, without disturbance, all of them living in settlements unprotected by walls, bars, or gates.” 12 It will be to take much spoil and plunder, to attack the devastated places that are now inhabited and a people regathered from the nations, who are accumulating wealth and property, those who are living in the center of the earth.
The above describes the return of the Jews to their land in unbelief that Jesus is their Messiah. Ezekiel 39 speaks about their conversion and Ezekiel 40-48 speaks about the Temple that will be built.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[meshak]

Jehovah Witness Teaching compared with The Bible

I have a question for you.

Why do you pick JWs?

do you think other organizations are more biblical than JWs?

thank you.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings meshak,

I have a question for you.
Why do you pick JWs?

This thread was prompted by my contact with SonOfCaleb on another thread. I have had a lot of contact with JWs over the years and I was interested in sharing some of my understanding of our differences. He invited me to start a new thread.

do you think other organizations are more biblical than JWs?

I am more interested in what the Bible teaches rather than weighing up organisations. I prefer to take one step at a time when discussing with other people. I believe that fellowship is only valid when we have fellowship with Jesus, and the gospel that he and the Apostles preached. After this we share fellowship with others who share this process. There is no such thing as fellowship with Christ by belonging to a church or organisation without personal contact with Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[meshak]

Greetings meshak,This thread was prompted by my contact with SonOfCaleb on another thread. I have had a lot of contact with JWs over the years and I was interested in sharing some of my understanding of our differences. He invited me to start a new thread.
I am more interested in what the Bible teaches rather than weighing up organisations. I prefer to take one step at a time when discussing with other people. I believe that fellowship is only valid when we have fellowship with Jesus, and the gospel that he and the Apostles preached. After this we share fellowship with others who share this process. There is no such thing as fellowship with Christ by belonging to a church or organisation without personal contact with Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

thank you.

I agree with you.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Greetings again SonOfCaleb,

Topic 4: JW Teaching Environment, Literature and The New World Translation This topic is partly prompted by your statement. My impression is that JWs are expected to adhere to the official JW teachings, partly because they believe that the JW.Org is Spirit established and guided.

This is correct

I am not sure if private study is encouraged

Its greatly encouraged and is a key fundamental of our learning. Although we lean on the governning body for guidance in spiritual matters regarding doctrine.

and if a member comes to a conclusion slightly different to the official line, whether he is able to discuss this openly.

Its regular for JW's to write into the headquarters of Jehovahs Witnesses with questions or to discuss with more learned ones in the congregation such as minsterial servents, elders or those who are more experienced in the faith. This is not discouraged and is in fact encouraged.

There is an environment that seems to be uniform, based on the teachings established and maintained by literature, uniform teachings from their Kingdom Halls possibly dictated from JW headquaters and partly by some aspects of the NWT.

I have not studied or used the NWT extensively, but the following citations have come to my attention mainly by reading the JW literature and by discussion with JWs.
Genesis 3:1 (KJV): Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Genesis 3:1 (NWT 2013): Now the serpent was the most cautious of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it said to the woman: “Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?”
(Footnote: cautious: Or “shrewdest, craftiest”)

John 1:1 (KJV): In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1 (NWT 2013): In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god.
(Footnote: was a god Or “was divine”)

Revelation 5:9-10 (KJV): 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Revelation 5:9-10 (NWT 2013): 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

In each of the above there is some evidence of JW bias, and I believe that the KJV is more correct in each instance. The environment that uses the NWT may not question the validity of the translation of these verses and a wrong teaching is more liable if a proper examination of each verse is not considered. My suggestion is that although a uniform environment has some merits, there is a danger that individual study and meditation on the Word is stifled.

Kind regards
Trevor

We believe our translation of the Bible to be an accurate, honest, and obective translation of the Bible text retaining the correct meanings and context as found in the original manuscripts.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

but instead I will ask you SoC, “Who is the King of the North?”

The events of Daniels prophecy are still being played out and as an organisation we do not know who the King of the North is.......yet. We are also encouraged by the governing body not to speculate. But it is my 'own' opinion, that based on recent world events the KoTN is more than likely Russia. As you've accurately mentioned Russia was the KoTN up until its disbanding under the USSR where the KoTS gained a symbolic victory over his adversary.

 

[KingdomRose]

Jehovah Witness Teaching compared with The Bible
I mentioned to a JW on another thread, that I agreed with the JWs on some of their teachings, but that I disagreed with quite a few of their other teachings. I hope to present some of these differences in this thread, and I hope we can take this steadily, without jumping to every topic at once. Possibly as each topic is reasonably covered we can either agree, or disagree, but our respective positions will be reasonably covered. I hope to learn from this interaction.

Topic 1: The return of our Lord Jesus Christ from heaven
Acts 1:9-11 (KJV): 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Acts 1:9-11 (NWT 2013): 9 After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, suddenly two men in white garments stood beside them 11 and said: “Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”

My understanding of the above is that Jesus is to return to the earth in a similar way to that mentioned above, literally, visibly and as a result Jesus will be actually upon the earth, and no longer in heaven. I also believe that the return of Jesus is still future and when this occurs it will result in the overthrow of the kingdoms of men and be the start of the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon earth that will last for 1000 years.

My assessment of the JW position is that Jesus will not literally return to the earth. I will let them explain their position, but it could be that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914, but is still in heaven. There may be other reasons why they claim that he will not literally return or that it is not possible for Jesus to return to the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

You are right, JWs believe that Jesus will rule from heaven over the earth, because he was resurrected as a spirit person, like he was even before he came to the earth, and there is no need for him to change back into a physical person and be living on the planet in order to rule over it.

Jesus WILL return in a similar way to how he ascended in the first century. That is: he was blocked out from the disciples' view by the clouds. So, he ascended in a manner which the disciples could not see. The angel clearly implied this by saying that Jesus would come back in the same manner---obstructed from view.

His present state of existence = spirit, just as his Father is (John 4:24). This is evident by what Paul and Peter wrote:

"If there is a natural [physical] body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, 'The first man, Adam, became a living soul.' The last Adam [Christ] became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:44,45, NASB)

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust...having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit." (IPeter 3:18, NASB)


Why would he return to a physical body to live on Earth? He sacrificed his physical human life for all time. Would he take back his sacrifice? He now lives in heaven in the spirit realm, as described at I Timothy 6:16: "Who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see." Does it diminish Jesus Christ in any way to say that he is in heaven and will rule from there?

 

[KingdomRose]

Oh! Well, we want a contribution? Alright then. Let's get you some contributions. Jesus Christ is Almighty God, Jehovah of the Old Testament, the 144,000 are Jews, Einstein, with even their tribes spelled-out, and you're going to suffering eternal torment in hell and the lake of fire, if you don't repent of your lies and accept Almighty, Eternal God of both Old and New Testaments, His name Jesus, the Christ, God and Lord of lords. Amen."

You are contradicting everything Jesus said. He could not be Jehovah, as has been reasoned on in the thread "Jesus is not YHWH." Jesus disputed the lies that he was Almighty God that the crafty Jews brought up out of their own imaginations to try and get him in trouble so they could do away with him. He refuted them every time, your own lies notwithstanding that he never corrected them! He certainly DID correct them. All anyone has to do is read the whole accounts, not just one verse in each. He said with his own mouth that his Father, Jehovah,
is the only true God (John 17:3), and he surely cringes when people teach such claptrap as what you teach.

The story of the rich man and "Lazarus" in Luke 16 is not a literal story, and anyone can see this by examining the details of the parable. It is METAPHORICAL, and not meant to be literal. It was to teach that the Pharisees were slacking in their responsibility to spiritually feed the common people. There is not another place in the Bible that anyone---Jesus included---teaches that a fiery hell actually exists. Your shallow understandings are unfortunately somehow connected to a loud mouth.

 

[KingdomRose]

Reply to Trevor, post #18: It's interesting that you call the people on Earth during Christ's Reign "the servant class." Where did you get that idea? No JW ever referred to people living in Paradise on Earth as the "servant class."

In fact, that is what the 144,000 will be for us---"servants," actually, because they will be helping us, guiding us, doing for us what we need to have done so that we can get the earth back to the shape it was in before Adam rebelled.

 

[KingdomRose]

Re. Trevor's post #21: We still do teach that no one before John the Baptist will be in heaven with Jesus. In fact, not even John the Baptist will be there. We'll get to know him HERE. (Matthew 11:11)

 

[KingdomRose]

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

"The Kingdom of heaven" has within its parameters a "courtyard" which includes the physical Earth. The SEAT of the government is in heaven. The government's CITIZENS live on Earth. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be citizens of the heavenly government who will live here on the earth, the Kingdom's courtyard.