Isaiah 53 is about ISRAEL

[SeraphimsCherub]

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

"a man of sorrows", this is speaking of a "man" singular. Not a whole nation of peoples lol.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Israel did exactly what they were suppose to do. They sacrificed unto the "LORD" (YAH)
their "God" (Yeshua Ha Mashiach)

~Exo 3:18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.

 

[beloved57]

Amen...I'd also like to expound upon this a little bit further.

~Exo_4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

~Hos_11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

~Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

~Mat_2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

~Joh_4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Yes they confirm !

 

[beloved57]

Amen...I'd also like to expound upon this a little bit further.

~Exo_4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

~Hos_11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

~Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

~Mat_2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

~Joh_4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Yeah they confirm!

 

[daqq]

Bs"d

I suggest you look again, it is written their very clearly. Well, maybe "Koresh", but that's the same thing.



Also there his name is clearly mentioned:
"Who says of Cyrus, ‘He is My shepherd,
And he shall perform all My pleasure,
Saying to Jerusalem, “You shall be built,”
And to the temple, “Your foundation shall be laid.”’
Is 44:28



I think it is a misapplication tantamount to blasphemy and horrible lies, when it says in the text "Cyrus", and you try to turn it into your messiah.



I believe in the Tanach, not in the Cyrus Cylinder.



But that is what the whole NT does, ripping texts which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever out of context, and then claiming it are messianic prophecies.

More horrible examples of that you can find here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/nt-prophecies



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

The text does not say "Cyrus" except in translations but rather you choose like most to believe the translations of men over the word of YHWH, (once again) because you are steeped in the traditions of your sages who deny Messiah Yeshua just as you also have done. And how blatant is your hypocrisy when in another thread you just got through judging me as being disobedient to the first commandment, here while you yourself in this thread, even after being shown the error of your ways, insist that the Shepherd of YHWH in Isaiah 44:28 and the Mashiyach of YHWH in Isaiah 45:1 is a man who worshiped Marduk. It is indeed blasphemy on your part by way of your interpretation because now you have intentionally equated HaShem with the one whom Curys II clearly served, honored, and worshiped. The only option you have left me concerning your belief system is to understand that you indeed serve Marduk because that is the end result of what you are spewing. Too bad you and yours have gone to such blasphemous lengths just because of your hatred of Messiah Yeshua and your unwillingness to admit that your understanding of the Scriptures is a miserable failure. Ah well, to each his or her own I suppose.

 

[Elia]

It was the duty of every adult Jewish male to keep the Temple holy, but only Jesus cared enough to step up up the plate and clean house.

Good for him.

Bs"d

But he used violence, and the servant in Isaiah 53 didn't use violence.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

Amen...I'd also like to expound upon this a little bit further.

~Exo_4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

~Hos_11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Bs"d

It's getting more and more absurd with the Christians, now they claim that when the Tanach speaks about Israel, it speaks about their messiah.

Matt 2:14 “And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt, 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."”

Here a text from Hosea 11: 1 which says: “out of Egypt I called my son” is applied to the messiah.
But let's take a look WHO is the “son of God” in the Tanach: “And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my first-born son, and I say to you, "Let my son go that he may serve me"; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.'" Exodus 4:22
This is clear language. And also in Hosea 11:1 it CLEARLY speaks about Israel, which has been led out of slavery from Egypt by God. See here Hosea 11:1 complete, and not a part ripped out of context: “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.”
Just read the whole chapter of Hosea 11 and see that it all speaks about Israel, and not about the messiah.
What the NT is doing here once again is ripping a piece of text out of context which has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and then present it as a “messianic prophecy”. Something it obviously is not.

So now Christians are trying to solve this problem by the absurd notion: "Israel = the messiah".

But the Torah says: "'Thus says Y-H-W-H, Israel is my first-born son, and I say to you, "Let my son go that he may serve me"; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.'"

Was the pharao ever keeping the Christian messiah captive in Egypt?

Of course not. This speaks about the nation Israel, and not about the messiah.

That Christianity is now equating Israel with the messiah shows they are really desperate. Therefore they are forced to make up the most absurd theories in order to be able to keep on hanging on to their religion.

Wake up and smell the coffee guys!

There is life after Christianity. A much better life.

Go for it!



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

Saying Jesus Christ is Israel is far different than a Rabbi saying that the "he" in Isaiah 53 is Old Covenant Israel and not Jesus Christ.

Bs"d

It sure is.

When you see Christians coming up with theories like that, you know they are at the end of their rope.


But: There is life after Christianity.

Start worshipping the one and only true God Y-H-W-H who is one, the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

What does this all mean? Does everybody have to forsake his religion and embrace Judaism?

This is not necessary. Although anyone who is driven by the right motives can become Jewish and join the Jewish people, this is not a necessity in order to enter heaven. Noah was not Jewish, but nevertheless it is written about him in Genesis 6:9: "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations." And what was his reward? "And Noah walked with G.d." The same holds true for Job. He was also not Jewish. "Job was perfect and upright, and one that eschewed evil." Job 1:1. So you don't have to be Jewish in order to be a G.d fearing and righteous person. The Jewish people have a different mission in life: "And you shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, a holy nation." Exodus 19:6. For this reason the Jewish people have to live according to 613 commandments. For the Noachide (non-Jew), life is a lot easier; he has far fewer commandments. Seven of them are particularly notable, because if he transgresses them, he will be punished by a human court. These are:

1) Establish courts of law.

2) Do not murder

3) Do not worship idols

4) Do not blaspheme

5) Do not steal.

6) Do not commit adultery

7) Do not eat the limbs of a live animal.

These seven are the minimum that a Noachide must fulfill. All together there are about 30 commandments that a Noachide must fulfill. He is obligated to do everything that has to do with the understanding of the heart, but if he transgresses these, he will not be punished for it by a human court. If you want to go deeper into these laws, the following books are recommended:

The Seven Laws of Noah, by Jacob Joseph, School Press. 1981 New York.

The Path of the Righteous Gentile, Targum Press, Southfield 1987.

The International Lubavitch Organization, headquartered in Brooklyn, New York, is also active in informing non-Jews of their G.d given code of law.

There is also a possibility that there is in your neighborhood a B'nai No'ach (Sons of Noah) movement.

In the Temple times non-Jews living in Israel and observing these seven universal laws, were permitted to offer sacrifices in the Temple. Because of the constant persecution that has befallen the Jews since the destruction of the Temple, it was not possible to teach these laws to the world. But now G.d is bringing the Jewish people home, and the Jewish people can once again reach out to the nations of the world and teach them G.d's laws.

"For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micha 4:2

In the Midrashic literature a Rabbi declares: (Tana De Bei Eliyahu Rabba)--" I call heaven and earth as witnesses: Any individual, whether Jew or non-Jew, man or woman, servant or maid, can bring the Divine Presence upon himself, in accordance with his deeds."




"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

"a man of sorrows", this is speaking of a "man" singular. Not a whole nation of peoples lol.

Bs"d

God is of course using a metaphor to describe the Jewish people.

Just like He does in for instance Isaiah 1:

"Why should you be stricken again?
You will revolt more and more.
The whole head is sick,
And the whole heart faints.
6
From the sole of the foot even to the head,
There is no soundness in it,
But wounds and bruises and putrefying sores;
They have not been closed or bound up,
Or soothed with ointment.

7
Your country is desolate,
Your cities are burned with fire;
Strangers devour your land in your presence;
And it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
8
So the daughter of Zion is left as a booth in a vineyard,
As a hut in a garden of cucumbers,
As a besieged city.
9
Unless the Lord of hosts
Had left to us a very small remnant,
We would have become like Sodom,
We would have been made like Gomorrah."

A nation doesn't have a head, no heart, no sole of the foot, but still it speaks about the Jews, check it out in the first verses of this chapter.

So also here God uses the metaphor of a man to describe the Jews.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

Israel did exactly what they were suppose to do. They sacrificed unto the "LORD" (YAH)
their "God" (Yeshua Ha Mashiach)

~Exo 3:18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.

Bs"d

Israel sacrificed to God, but human sacrifices were totally forbidden, and the concept that Israel sacrificed God is just totally absurd.
Sacrificing God to God.

God is angry, therefore you have to kill him, and sacrificy him to himself.

Such a ridiculous concept is of course nowhere to be found in the Tanach.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

The text does not say "Cyrus" except in translations but rather you choose like most to believe the translations of men over the word of YHWH, (once again) because you are steeped in the traditions of your sages who deny Messiah Yeshua just as you also have done.

Bs"d

The original Hebrew text says "Kores", usually transliterated as "Cyrus". Check it out here in this Hebrew interlinear: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

And how blatant is your hypocrisy when in another thread you just got through judging me as being disobedient to the first commandment, here while you yourself in this thread, even after being shown the error of your ways, insist that the Shepherd of YHWH in Isaiah 44:28 and the Mashiyach of YHWH in Isaiah 45:1 is a man who worshiped Marduk.

Speaking about Y-H-W-H, Isaiah calls Cyrus (Kores) "His messiah".

You don't like it, take it up with The Boss.

But your indignation is probably caused by the fact that you don't know what a messiah is. So let's start with that one:

Who was the messiah? In order to understand this we first have to understand what is a messiah. Messiah comes from the Hebrew word 'meshiach' which means 'anointed one' It was the custom to anoint kings with oil before they came to power. There were already many anointed kings in Jewish history. Read for instance I Samuel 9:27 to10:1; Here Saul is anointed by Samuel the prophet. And thereby he became a messiah, an anointed one, See Samuel 11:13 up to 12:3: Here in verse 3 king Saul is called G.ds anointed, in the Hebrew 'meshiach'. So also king Saul was a messiah. Look in I Samuel 16:12-13, here the prophet Samuel anoints David, the Hebrew verb for anointing is 'mashach', and he becomes an anointed one, as we can read in II Samuel 23:1; "David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed (in the Hebrew 'meshiach') of the G.d of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said; …"

I Kings 1:39; "And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed (Hebrew verb 'mashach') Solomon. And they blew the trumpet, and all the people said; G.d save king Solomon." Also Solomon was an anointed one, or messiah: II Chronicles 6:42, here king Solomon prays: "O Lord turn not away the face of thine anointed, …" In the Hebrew: 'meshiach'.

So now we know what is a messiah: An anointed king.

And the Christian messiah never was anointed as king by a priest and/or prophet, and he never was a king, in other words: He never was a messiah.

It is indeed blasphemy on your part by way of your interpretation because now you have intentionally equated HaShem with the one whom Curys II clearly served, honored, and worshiped.

No I didn't. You think so because in you mind the messias is God himself.

However, the messiah is not going to be God, not the "son of God", not divine, but 100% a human being, born from the normal union of man and woman, and not from a virgin.

NOWHERE in the Tanach is it written that the messiah will be divine, born from a virgin, or anything like that.

That's where you go wrong.

So also king Cyrus was not God, and not divine. And Cyrus was not THE messiah, but A messiah.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[daqq]

Bs"d

The original Hebrew text says "Kores", usually transliterated as "Cyrus". Check it out here in this Hebrew interlinear: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm



Speaking about Y-H-W-H, Isaiah calls Cyrus (Kores) "His messiah".

You don't like it, take it up with The Boss.

Since when does "Kores" = "Cyrus"? Only in your translators book.

But your indignation is probably caused by the fact that you don't know what a messiah is. So let's start with that one:

Who was the messiah? In order to understand this we first have to understand what is a messiah. Messiah comes from the Hebrew word 'meshiach' which means 'anointed one' It was the custom to anoint kings with oil before they came to power. There were already many anointed kings in Jewish history. Read for instance I Samuel 9:27 to10:1; Here Saul is anointed by Samuel the prophet. And thereby he became a messiah, an anointed one, See Samuel 11:13 up to 12:3: Here in verse 3 king Saul is called G.ds anointed, in the Hebrew 'meshiach'. So also king Saul was a messiah. Look in I Samuel 16:12-13, here the prophet Samuel anoints David, the Hebrew verb for anointing is 'mashach', and he becomes an anointed one, as we can read in II Samuel 23:1; "David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed (in the Hebrew 'meshiach') of the G.d of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said; …"

I Kings 1:39; "And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed (Hebrew verb 'mashach') Solomon. And they blew the trumpet, and all the people said; G.d save king Solomon." Also Solomon was an anointed one, or messiah: II Chronicles 6:42, here king Solomon prays: "O Lord turn not away the face of thine anointed, …" In the Hebrew: 'meshiach'.

So now we know what is a messiah: An anointed king.

And the Christian messiah never was anointed as king by a priest and/or prophet, and he never was a king, in other words: He never was a messiah.

The anointing of Yeshua occurs at his immersion under Yochanan the Priest and son of Zechariah, of the order of Abiyah, and is confirmed by the witness himself, (Yochanan is the witness) who also testified and confirmed the voice out of the heavens from the Father. Not only was Yochanan a priest but the greatest of the prophets having been born of nashiym. Also the anointing of Yeshua is the anointing of the Holy Spirit and not literal olive oil. :crackup:

No I didn't. You think so because in you mind the messias is God himself.

However, the messiah is not going to be God, not the "son of God", not divine, but 100% a human being, born from the normal union of man and woman, and not from a virgin.

NOWHERE in the Tanach is it written that the messiah will be divine, born from a virgin, or anything like that.

That's where you go wrong.

So also king Cyrus was not God, and not divine. And Cyrus was not THE messiah, but A messiah.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

It is very telling how you continue to attribute certain beliefs to my account when you truly do not have a clue what I actually believe.

 

[daqq]

Did you forget what HaNavi Yeshayahu says about anointing?
The anointing is from the Father Himself:

Isaiah 61:1-2a (Re: Luke 4:18, 19, 20, 21)
1. The Spirit of Adonay YHWH is upon me; for YHWH has anointed me to preach good tidings to the meek, He has sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound:
2a. To proclaim the acceptable year of YHWH,

Also on the subject of Isaiah 44:28 and Isaiah 45:1

Ezra 1:1
1. Now in the first year of Kowresh king of Persia, that the word of YHWH by the mouth of Yirmeyahu might be fulfilled, YHWH stirred up the spirit of Koresh king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying:

Why does the author not mention the prophecy and word of Yeshayahu in this instance? The same happens in the companion statement from 2 Chronicles 36:22 where the prophet Yirmeyahu is again mentioned but no mention of Yeshayahu-Isaiah. Why is this? This is the perfect opportunity for Ezra the chronicler to inform us that the prophecy of Yeshayahu was fillied if indeed that was the case. In addition the writer makes a difference in the spelling of Kowresh ad Koresh in the above passage. In addition the passages in both cases state that YHWH stirred up the Spirit rather than the man. Have you never thought that perhaps Cyrus king of Persia is only being used as a typological example, in prophetic language, to foretell much greater things that are yet to come in the future from the perspective of the writer? Perhaps one needs to redouble the studies in Daniel where we read of Miykael, Gabriyel, Sar-sariym, Sar Yavan, and Sar Parac, which are not at all necessarily physical entites.

 

[Elia]

The anointing of Yeshua occurs at his immersion under Yochanan the Priest and son of Zechariah,

Bs"d

You should start to investigate the difference between an "anointing" and an "immersion in water". They are two totally different things.

An anointing is with oil. Not with doves, not with dove-droppings, not with the holy ghost, but with oil.

Of course, such a thing never happened to your "messiah", so you start calling an immersion an anointing, or a supposed "anointing with the ghost", but of course, that is an act of desperation.

It is very telling how you continue to attribute certain beliefs to my account when you truly do not have a clue what I actually believe.

Well, from your faulty assumption that I equated Koresh with God, I get a pretty good idea.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

Bs"d

Back to Isaiah 53.

Just like nobody can give me any proof that the Christian messiah was really the messiah, even so nobody can give me any proof that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

The indications and proofs that Isaiah 53 speaks about the people of Israel are many and strong.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[beloved57]

Bs"d

Back to Isaiah 53.

Just like nobody can give me any proof that the Christian messiah was really the messiah, even so nobody can give me any proof that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

The indications and proofs that Isaiah 53 speaks about the people of Israel are many and strong.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

You are under a strong delusion to believe a lie !

 

[daqq]

Well, from your faulty assumption that I equated Koresh with God, I get a pretty good idea.

You have no reading comprehension. When you say that Isaiah 44:28 and Isaiah 45:1 speak of Cyrus II, who worshiped, honored, and served Marduk, you do so out of desperation and fear of what it really means if Cyrus is not who the passage concerns, (because the alternative does not agree with your doctrine). YHWH says that the "Kuros" of that passage is both His Shepherd and His Mashiyach. You do therefore indeed equate the Most High with a false Babylonian idol-god because Cyrus clearly worshiped Marduk and you say that Cyrus was both the Shepherd and the Mashiyach of the Most High God.

Bs"d

Back to Isaiah 53.

Just like nobody can give me any proof that the Christian messiah was really the messiah, even so nobody can give me any proof that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

The indications and proofs that Isaiah 53 speaks about the people of Israel are many and strong.

You have already shown that you will not see any evidence even when it is set right in front of your very own eyes. In addition Isaiah 45 is right there in the midst of the "suffering servant" passages and yet, out of the sky blue thin air, you take a worshiper of Marduk and make him the central character and Mashiyach of the suffering servant passages. Talk about desperation! :crackup:

 

[daqq]

Bs"d

Back to Isaiah 53.

Just like nobody can give me any proof that the Christian messiah was really the messiah, even so nobody can give me any proof that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

The indications and proofs that Isaiah 53 speaks about the people of Israel are many and strong.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

You ignore many other critical things that the Prophet Isaiah has written:

Isaiah 66:5-12 KJV
5. Hear the word of the Lord, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the Lord be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
6. A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
7. Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10. Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11. That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12. For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.

From the end of the scroll:

Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? Shall a nation be born at once?
Shall YHWH bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth?
Will He cause to bring forth and then shut the womb?

Before she travailed, she brought forth:
Before her pain came, she was delivered of a man-child.

:sheep:

 

[Elia]

You are under a strong delusion to believe a lie !

Bs"d

Which lie?

 

[beloved57]

Bs"d

Which lie?

You will find out at the Judgment !