Is the New Covenant for non Jews?

In Jeremiah 31 the new covenant is said to be made specifically with the “house of Israel and the house of Judah.”

How do Christians partake in this covenant? What are you thoughts?

Are Christians "grafted in" to Israel? If so, can a Christian consider him/herself to be a member of the house of Israel and expect all the promises made to Israel?

If you think Christians are partakers of the New Covenant, but still think there are special specific promises that only ethnic Israel is privy to, what is your reasoning?
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
In Jeremiah 31 the new covenant is said to be made specifically with the “house of Israel and the house of Judah.”

How do Christians partake in this covenant? What are you thoughts?

Are Christians "grafted in" to Israel? If so, can a Christian consider him/herself to be a member of the house of Israel and expect all the promises made to Israel?

If you think Christians are partakers of the New Covenant, but still think there are special specific promises that only ethnic Israel is privy to, what is your reasoning?

Romans 9:4 KJV who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Ephesians 2:12 KJV that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Romans 11 KJV

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 if by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

EOT. DOA. THE END.RIP.QED. CLOSED.
 
You stopped quoting Ephesians just before it starts talking about gentiles now being brought near and made fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household.

Are Christians now members of Israel?
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
You stopped quoting Ephesians just before it starts talking about gentiles now being brought near and made fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household.

Are Christians now members of Israel?

No, and you stopped quoting at Jeremiah.


So there.


Ephesians 3 KJV

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 if ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 how that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Verse 6 does not say "that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs with Israel, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel
 
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Hawkins

Active member
In Jeremiah 31 the new covenant is said to be made specifically with the “house of Israel and the house of Judah.”

How do Christians partake in this covenant? What are you thoughts?

Are Christians "grafted in" to Israel? If so, can a Christian consider him/herself to be a member of the house of Israel and expect all the promises made to Israel?

If you think Christians are partakers of the New Covenant, but still think there are special specific promises that only ethnic Israel is privy to, what is your reasoning?

A covenant is always made with the current designated human authority (the Jews at the time of the quoted verse), however the scope of coverage (can be all mankind) can be something else.


The starting point of the covenant is from John the Baptist, it starts with the Jews first.

Luke 16:16 (NIV2011)
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.



The following signifies an authority shift from the Jews to God's earthly church which are Christians.


Matthew 16:19 (NIV2011)
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Matthew 18:17-18 (NIV2011)
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.


Starting with Jews the New Covenant was signed at the point when the Jews were still God's earthly representative. However this authentication shifted to Christian church as designated by Jesus Himself. The scope of coverage of the covenant however remains the same, it covers both the Jews and gentiles alike.
 

Right Divider

Body part
A covenant is always made with the current designated human authority (the Jews at the time of the quoted verse), however the scope of coverage (can be all mankind) can be something else.

The starting point of the covenant is from John the Baptist, it starts with the Jews first.

Luke 16:16 (NIV2011)
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.


The following signifies an authority shift from the Jews to God's earthly church which are Christians.

Matthew 16:19 (NIV2011)
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Matthew 18:17-18 (NIV2011)
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Starting with Jews the New Covenant was signed at the point when the Jews were still God's earthly representative. However this authentication shifted to Christian church as designated by Jesus Himself. The scope of coverage of the covenant however remains the same, it covers both the Jews and gentiles alike.
That was all very silly and mostly false.

Even the book to the Hebrews reiterated that the new covenant will be between God and Israel.

Heb 8:8-12 KJV For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. (10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. (12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

That is still valid.

Note that the new covenant is with the SAME two parties are the old covenant.
 
That was all very silly and mostly false.

Even the book to the Hebrews reiterated that the new covenant will be between God and Israel.


That is still valid.

Note that the new covenant is with the SAME two parties are the old covenant.

So, do you think the new covenant is also with Christians? Or only with Jews?

And, do you think that covenant has now been established? Or has yet to be established?

If you think it has been established right now with the Jews, why don't they all know God and have their sins forgiven?
 
No, and you stopped quoting at Jeremiah.


Verse 6 does not say "hat the Gentiles should be fellow heirs with Israel, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel

Sorry, please clarify what you are saying here. Verse 6 does say Gentiles are fellow heirs with Israel. Are you disputing that?
 
No... God's household is not just Israel.

I agree with that.

But follow the logic in Ephesians 2.

Vs. 12 "at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel..."

vs. 13 "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near..."

vs. 19 "Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household...."

In this sense, I think Israel is a term being used for God's spiritual household - and not merely for a physical people. Gentiles always had the ability to become citizens of Israel by following certain tenants of the Law.


Paul talks about being a Jew in two different senses. Obviously, Paul makes reference to ethnic Jews; but he is clear to make the point that it is more important to be Jew is a spiritual sense than in a physical sense.

Rom 2:28,29 "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly..."

He uses the term Israel similarly. He speaks of physical Israel, but also of a spiritual Israel.

Rom 9:6 "Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children...."

Gal 3:29 "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

So, I would say that the new covenant is with Israel - but it is essential to realize that some ethnic Jews are not truly Israel, while some non-Jews are truly Israel.
 

clefty

New member
In Jeremiah 31 the new covenant is said to be made specifically with the “house of Israel and the house of Judah.”

How do Christians partake in this covenant? What are you thoughts?

Are Christians "grafted in" to Israel? If so, can a Christian consider him/herself to be a member of the house of Israel and expect all the promises made to Israel?

If you think Christians are partakers of the New Covenant, but still think there are special specific promises that only ethnic Israel is privy to, what is your reasoning?

It was ALWAYS and ONLY spiritual...Isaac was a miracle not by blood but divine intervention (PROMISE)...Abraham and Sarah’s blood line was dead OVER...and every birth following came from that SPIRITUAL intervention...and even Jacob was NOT the first born and by deception stole the birthright (PROMISE)...and yet was blessed for it through again divine intervention when a NEW NAME was given to him as Israel...again PROMISE...

THe slave Hebrews did NOTHING to be saved from Egypt but because of a PROMISE were saved if they believed and obeyed...prior receiving the Law...it’s never what they did which saved them but faith first...faith THAT THEY WERE PROMISED

Israel HIS PEOPLE was ALWAYS spiritual...Jacob by flesh then named Israel by Divine event...and for faith not for blood line...a bloodline by miracle since Isaac

Israel as a nation was not only always only spiritual but literally as a nation ALWAYS had goyim foreigners strangers non natives within her gates...even Yahushua’s lineage had adopted goyim...

and yet ONE LAW ONE PROMISE...as His House is a house of prayer for ALL nations to worship....and from Sabbath to Sabbath concludes Isaiah...the Sabbath...the only Law specifically including these strangers

Aaaah yes the seventh day Sabbath...the reason for all this twisting and torturing of texts...9 of the 10 laws are readily accepted but that Sabbath thingy is a doozie...
 

clefty

New member
I agree with that.

But follow the logic in Ephesians 2.

Vs. 12 "at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel..."

vs. 13 "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near..."

vs. 19 "Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household...."

In this sense, I think Israel is a term being used for God's spiritual household - and not merely for a physical people. Gentiles always had the ability to become citizens of Israel by following certain tenants of the Law.


Paul talks about being a Jew in two different senses. Obviously, Paul makes reference to ethnic Jews; but he is clear to make the point that it is more important to be Jew is a spiritual sense than in a physical sense.

Rom 2:28,29 "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly..."

He uses the term Israel similarly. He speaks of physical Israel, but also of a spiritual Israel.

Rom 9:6 "Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children...."

Gal 3:29 "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

So, I would say that the new covenant is with Israel - but it is essential to realize that some ethnic Jews are not truly Israel, while some non-Jews are truly Israel.

Ahh yes da jews...

NOT ethnic as there are Ethiopian, Semitic, non Semitic, Asian, etc...all types of ethnics...
NOT a religion as there are many various ones and even atheist jews...LOL

Good to remember IN HIM...there is NO MORE jew or gentile...just His people of promise...Israel

Jews dont believe their god had a Son...so a jew believing otherwise is no longer a jew
Gentiles dont believe that Son makes them Israel...so a gentile believing otherwise is of Israel and no longer a gentile

Is why jews HATE Him...He tore down that middle wall of seperation...
 

Right Divider

Body part
So, do you think the new covenant is also with Christians? Or only with Jews?
Was I not clear enough when I said that the new covenant is between the same two parties as the old covenant based on what the Bible says?

And, do you think that covenant has now been established? Or has yet to be established?
Clearly, based on the Bible it is yet to be established.

If you think it has been established right now with the Jews, why don't they all know God and have their sins forgiven?
:dizzy:
 

Right Divider

Body part
I agree with that.

But follow the logic in Ephesians 2.

Vs. 12 "at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel..."

vs. 13 "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near..."
Let's not DOT DOT DOT the scripture and leave out important DETAILS.

The being brought near is BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST and not by "becoming a citizen of or with Israel".

Eph 2:12-13 KJV That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

vs. 19 "Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household...."

In this sense, I think Israel is a term being used for God's spiritual household - and not merely for a physical people. Gentiles always had the ability to become citizens of Israel by following certain tenants of the Law.
In the past that was true, but in the body of Christ there is no need to be a part of Israel. As a matter of fact, at that time Israel was FALLEN. Why would you want to be a part of FALLEN Israel?

Paul says that in the body of Christ there is NEITHER Jew NOR Greek. Let's believe that.

Gal 3:28 KJV There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Paul talks about being a Jew in two different senses. Obviously, Paul makes reference to ethnic Jews; but he is clear to make the point that it is more important to be Jew is a spiritual sense than in a physical sense.

Rom 2:28,29 "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly..."
This is the common perversion of that verse within most of Churchianity. But that is NOT what Paul is saying. Paul is NOT making believers "spiritual Jews". Paul is speaking of unbelieving Jew as not being "real" Jews. Paul is speaking of EXCLUSION and not INCLUSION.

Paul is saying that just being a descendant of Israel is not enough, one must be faithful.

He uses the term Israel similarly. He speaks of physical Israel, but also of a spiritual Israel.

Rom 9:6 "Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children...."
Same thing here.

Gal 3:29 "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
What promise?

Again, don't try to isolate this verse from the rest of what Paul is saying. The verse right before that says:

Gal 3:28 KJV There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

So, I would say that the new covenant is with Israel - but it is essential to realize that some ethnic Jews are not truly Israel, while some non-Jews are truly Israel.
That is Churchianity and not Bible Christianity.
 
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john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Sorry, please clarify what you are saying here. Verse 6 does say Gentiles are fellow heirs with Israel. Are you disputing that?

No, it does not/yes, I am:

6 that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Verse 6 does not say "that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs with Israel, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel"

No ms. of the scriptures has "with Israel."
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
And, do you think that covenant has now been established? Or has yet to be established?

If you think it has been established right now with the Jews, why don't they all know God and have their sins forgiven?
Established, does not mean enacted. The New Covenant was ratified, 2000+ years ago, but its inauguration, institution, enactment, "establishment," awaits "the second time"(Acts 7:13 KJV, Hebrews 9:28 KJV), during "the times of refreshing"(Acts 3:19 KJV), when the Deliverer returns......

Romans 11 KJV
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 

Hawkins

Active member
That was all very silly and mostly false.

Even the book to the Hebrews reiterated that the new covenant will be between God and Israel.

Heb 8:8-12 KJV For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. (10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. (12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

That is still valid.

Note that the new covenant is with the SAME two parties are the old covenant.

Your quote here is irrelevant. It never says anything about whether the New Covenant covers both Jews and gentiles or not.

As a matter of fact, the New Covenant though originally signed with the 2 houses of Israel, covers both the Jews and gentiles. Whatever Bible you read, there is not another covenant specially signed with the Jews alone through Jesus! Trying to deny this simple fact remains your silliness.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Your quote here is irrelevant. It never says anything about whether the New Covenant covers both Jews and gentiles or not.

As a matter of fact, the New Covenant though originally signed with the 2 houses of Israel, covers both the Jews and gentiles. Whatever Bible you read, there is not another covenant specially signed with the Jews alone through Jesus! Trying to deny this simple fact remains your silliness.
No, your weighing in here, without scriptural quotes, "connecting the dots," is merely opinion, and irrelevant.

You lied-members of the boc have no part in the New Covenant, as it was not promised to them, thief:


Romans 9:4 who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Ephesians 2:12 KJV that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

What is your motivation, for lying, grand theft?
 

musterion

Well-known member
1. God never made any covenant with Gentiles and doesn't have one with any Gentiles today (or Jews, for that matter). His covenants started with Abraham and dealt solely with Israel. All covenantism is now temporarily on hold.

2. Being under grace, as all are today, precludes the need for a covenant deal with God.

Some people hate the idea of not being under a covenant because they secretly (or not so secretly) yearn for a Law to keep...for works to do...to prove themselves right with God rather than resting in the imputed righteousness of Christ.
 

clefty

New member
1. God never made any covenant with Gentiles and doesn't have one with any Gentiles today (or Jews, for that matter). His covenants started with Abraham and dealt solely with Israel. All covenantism is now temporarily on hold.

2. Being under grace, as all are today, precludes the need for a covenant deal with God.

Some people hate the idea of not being under a covenant because they secretly (or not so secretly) yearn for a Law to keep...for works to do...to prove themselves right with God rather than resting in the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Ummmm...Abraham was a gentile...not even the first gentile He made a covenant with...

And like Abraham we are still under “trust and obey”...I mean you are a descendant of Abraham by promise?...you know like Isaac? Cuz blood wasn’t good enough...Sarah was too old...

All His people are by covenant and still by faith...by promise...and with works...neat eh?

Is why we WANT to do those works...His works...if you love Him...

IF you trust and obey...there is no other way...
 
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